Short stops on the Vermonter

[Woodcut60]

In May this year I was on the Vermonter and I noticed that the train made extremely short stops – just five to ten seconds – in Windsor-Mt. Ascutney as well as Holyoke. I asked the Assistant Conductor about this and he said that they have to stop because “Wilmington” (Train Operations) says so. So, no passengers boarding or detraining, yet the train must stop anyway. I find this strange. Can Forum members explain this to me, please?

 

[Triley]

Rules dictate that the train must officially stop at a station even if no one ticketed is suppose to get on or off the train, because there may be an unticketed passenger who may want to buy a ticket onboard, amongst other reasons I'm sure.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Unless they're flag stops they must stop. And if they're running early they must wait for the posted departure time to leave.

 

[OBS]

The Vermonter crews used to call it "touch and go". If no one on the manifest, they alert the engineer who keeps an eye out for activity, and if none, notifies the Conductor, who quickly gives "Ok to go" as soon as train is (almost) stopped.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

just incase someone later claims the train never stopped, they do stop just to satisfy the event recorder.

 

[fairviewroad]

All of the above are based on a century-and--a-half of railroad tradition that has (presumably) been codified in Amtrak's operating manual, right? That is, there's nothing in federal law or FRA regulations that *requires* the train to physically stop in cases where no one is getting on or off, right?

 

[battalion51]

The only time a train can avoid stopping is if it's a flag stop or a "D" discharge only stop. No one ticketed to get off, notify the Engineer and proceed accordingly.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

Unless they're flag stops they must stop. And if they're running early they must wait for the posted departure time to leave.

And I believe that with the reverse, the train is running late, they don't have to wait since they are already past the posted departure time.

 

[the_traveler]

The train is required to stop (except at flag stops, D stops and L stops) because a passenger may have just gotten off their cell phone 2 minutes before and made a reservation. The crew may not have been notified in those 2 minutes. But someone could be boarding since it is a scheduled stop.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

That is, there's nothing in federal law or FRA regulations that *requires* the train to physically stop in cases where no one is getting on or off, right?

How do you know that there is no one getting on? At these small stations, they are also many times unmanned (unpersoned?). So, a passenger could be expecting to get on the train, and as mentioned, buying their ticket on-board.

 

[fairviewroad]

That is, there's nothing in federal law or FRA regulations that *requires* the train to physically stop in cases where no one is getting on or off, right?

How do you know that there is no one getting on? At these small stations, they are also many times unmanned (unpersoned?). So, a passenger could be expecting to get on the train, and as mentioned, buying their ticket on-board.

The same way a bus driver operating a city bus route knows not to stop at every single station along his/her route: If there is no one visible, they don't stop.

These tiny stations you speak of frequently do not have station buildings or any type of shelter that would prevent a train crew from seeing a prospective passenger. I'm not suggesting the train blow through at track speed. I'm just suggesting that these by-and-large pointless stops are made largely out of adherence to railroad tradition. Obviously if the train is running on time, there is a logical need to stop and wait for the scheduled departure time. But in many cases late-running Amtrak trains come to a complete stop for no discernible reason.

 

[fairviewroad]

The train is required to stop (except at flag stops, D stops and L stops) because a passenger may have just gotten off their cell phone 2 minutes before and made a reservation. The crew may not have been notified in those 2 minutes. But someone could be boarding since it is a scheduled stop.

According to the timetable footnotes, the "D" or "L" designation also requires a stop in all cases. The only thing the "D" or "L" allows is for the train to leave earlier than the time shown on the timetable. But it does not release the train from its sacrosanct requirement to come to a complete stop.

 

[the_traveler]

OK, with an L it makes sense. But if a station is a D (disembarking passengers only - no boarding allowed) and no one aboard is getting off, then why must it stop? :huh: No one can get on!

 

[west point]

Should be some way for a passenger to activate a signal telling engineer that is waiting for train ?

 

[jis]

Depending on the railroad and train there are different protocols for flag stops.

For example, on the Canadian I believe it requires pre-notification if you are getting on at a flag stop. You cannot just show up and expect the train to stop, if I recall correctly.

On the Alaska Railroad between Talkeetna and Hurricane, you can basically show up by the railroad track anywhere, need not be a station or anything like that, and wave the train to stop to pick you up. you can tell the conductor what milepost or which trail crossing the tracks you want to get off at, and have the train stop to drop you off. no need for a station.

Those are the two extremes of flag stops. There are various in between possibilities between those two extremes.

 

[Montreal Ltd]

A few years ago I was waiting with several others for a late 48 at an unstadd

 

[CCC1007]

Doesn't a D or an R exempt transferring passengers?

 

[Montreal Ltd]

Oops waiting with others at an unstaffed station for a late 29. Train 48 came by at a walking pace and the conductor at the open Dutch door called out "anyone going eastbound?" He was met by a glum silence so did not stop.

 

[fairviewroad]

OK, with an L it makes sense. But if a station is a D (disembarking passengers only - no boarding allowed) and no one aboard is getting off, then why must it stop? :huh: No one can get on!

Well, upon further reflection, depending on how you parse the timetable footnote, I suppose a "D" stop could be skipped altogether. The footnote states: "Stops only to discharge passengers. Train may leave before time shown." My interpretation was that the train was required to stop, but may not board any passengers during the required stop. But I guess you could interpret that as meaning "the only time this train will stop is if there is a passenger getting off here." The latter does make more sense, and is hopefully observed by train crews.

Doesn't a D or an R exempt transferring passengers?

No, the exemption you are referring to is in timetable footnote #19, which states "Passengers not carried between this station and _______ except when connecting to/from other Amtrak trains." That footnote does not in and of itself confer "D" or "R" status on a station stop. If a stop is a "D" or an "R", then Amtrak's booking system will not permit you to override that designation even if you are connecting.

Oops waiting with others at an unstaffed station for a late 29. Train 48 came by at a walking pace and the conductor at the open Dutch door called out "anyone going eastbound?" He was met by a glum silence so did not stop.

Now this is now it should be done. Hopefully "Wilmington" did not find out.

 

[Hal]

OK, with an L it makes sense. But if a station is a D (disembarking passengers only - no boarding allowed) and no one aboard is getting off, then why must it stop? :huh: No one can get on!

Well, upon further reflection, depending on how you parse the timetable footnote, I suppose a "D" stop could be skipped altogether. The footnote states: "Stops only to discharge passengers. Train may leave before time shown." My interpretation was that the train was required to stop, but may not board any passengers during the required stop. But I guess you could interpret that as meaning "the only time this train will stop is if there is a passenger getting off here." The latter does make more sense, and is hopefully observed by train crews.

Doesn't a D or an R exempt transferring passengers?

No, the exemption you are referring to is in timetable footnote #19, which states "Passengers not carried between this station and _______ except when connecting to/from other Amtrak trains." That footnote does not in and of itself confer "D" or "R" status on a station stop. If a stop is a "D" or an "R", then Amtrak's booking system will not permit you to override that designation even if you are connecting.

Oops waiting with others at an unstaffed station for a late 29. Train 48 came by at a walking pace and the conductor at the open Dutch door called out "anyone going eastbound?" He was met by a glum silence so did not stop.

Now this is now it should be done. Hopefully "Wilmington" did not find out.

A D stop can't be skipped. S, D, L, R, in the timetable the train must make a station stop unless the dispatcher orders the train to skip the stop. Skipping it is a rule violation. Skipping it should not be done. I would also be stupid for employees to jepordize their jobs. The engine tapes are downloaded checked from time to time to monitor that engineers are abiding by speed restrictions, doing running brake tests etc. It would be idiotic not to make a complete stop at a timetable station stop. I can't fathom why some on this board are fixated on this subject.

 

[railiner]

That is, there's nothing in federal law or FRA regulations that *requires* the train to physically stop in cases where no one is getting on or off, right?

How do you know that there is no one getting on? At these small stations, they are also many times unmanned (unpersoned?). So, a passenger could be expecting to get on the train, and as mentioned, buying their ticket on-board.

The same way a bus driver operating a city bus route knows not to stop at every single station along his/her route: If there is no one visible, they don't stop.

These tiny stations you speak of frequently do not have station buildings or any type of shelter that would prevent a train crew from seeing a prospective passenger. I'm not suggesting the train blow through at track speed. I'm just suggesting that these by-and-large pointless stops are made largely out of adherence to railroad tradition. Obviously if the train is running on time, there is a logical need to stop and wait for the scheduled departure time. But in many cases late-running Amtrak trains come to a complete stop for no discernible reason.

At locations that have no comfortable place to wait, nor employees, oftentimes, especially during inclement weather, passenger's may be waiting inside the automoblle that took them to the station. They may be waiting for the train to stop, to make a dash to board. In such cases, the crew may not see the passenger waiting to board....

 

[railiner]

Should be some way for a passenger to activate a signal telling engineer that is waiting for train ?

In the old days...that was how 'flag stops' got their name....the agent raised a flag or semaphore signal telling the train to stop for a passenger....

 

[Ryan]

I can't fathom why some on this board are fixated on this subject.

Welcome to the internet, where everyone is an expert at your job and common sense doesn't matter.