Should Amtrak restore service to Grand Central Terminal, NYC?

[west point]

Instead of a tunnel . Make connections at the Spuyten wye restored and make a connection from the MNRR Hudson route to the Hell gate line southbound on to NYP. So much more cheaper.

 

[jis]

At the time GCT service ended, I recall the Empire State Passengers Association listed two reasons for it:

1) The aforementioned difficulty in transfers, and also:

2) They agreed that the rent Metro North was charging Amtrak (for comparatively few trains/day) ... "bordered upon extortion".

There have been at least two(?) summers in recent memory that - due to track work - Amtrak was temporarily re-routed to GCT.

I just don't expect anything more ... especially now that the LIRR is utilizing GCT.

Actually LIRR is using nothing at GCT. It is using a completely separate new station many floors below the lower level of GCT with a few connecting pedestrian passages. The station is called Grand Central Madison.

 

[Fenway]

Running exclusively Boston - NYC is a good idea. Just run them to Penn.

I suspect that limitations at NYP are the core issue,

We all know that the NEC infrastructure between Newark and Manhattan is tenuous................

 

[Tlcooper93]

I suspect that limitations at NYP are the core issue,

We all know that the NEC infrastructure between Newark and Manhattan is tenuous................

Are the limitations at GCT, not to mention MNRR usage fees, somehow less insurmountable than whatever the problem at Penn is?

tenuous infrastructure in Newark doesn’t affect Boston - NYP trains.

 

[Amtrak25]

Are the limitations at GCT, not to mention MNRR usage fees, somehow less insurmountable than whatever the problem at Penn is?

tenuous infrastructure in Newark doesn’t affect Boston - NYP trains.

The difference is everything south and west of New Haven and Poughkeepsie is not Amtrak's railroad. Miss its slot, and Amtrak is often not punctual, MN will treat Amtrak just like Norfolk Southern does.

 

[jis]

I suspect that limitations at NYP are the core issue,

We all know that the NEC infrastructure between Newark and Manhattan is tenuous................

Which limitation at NYC are you worried about? Yes, beyond a point there are limitations everywhere. I am curious whether we can move from hand waving statements to specifics.

Which tenuousness of the Newark - New York segment are we talking about?

If we are talking about capacity limits during rush hours, GCT suffers from exactly the same problem. So we are probably talking about something else?

 

[jis]

Instead of a tunnel . Make connections at the Spuyten wye restored and make a connection from the MNRR Hudson route to the Hell gate line southbound on to NYP. So much more cheaper.

Why on earth would anyone want to connect the Hudson Line to the Hell Gate Line to get to Penn Station? One could simply go to Penn Station from the the Hudson Line by running down the Empire Connection. No construction of anything needed. It would be nice to electrify the Empire Connection but that is not critically necessary even since currently available equipment can be used to operate such a service tomorrow.

As an aside, even if you manage to get to either Huntspoint Yard area or New Rochelle, how do you do so pointing in the right direction so as to not require a reverse move? Seems like a solution desperately seeking a problem.

 

[Tlcooper93]

The difference is everything south and west of New Haven and Poughkeepsie is not Amtrak's railroad. Miss its slot, and Amtrak is often not punctual, MN will treat Amtrak just like Norfolk Southern does.

He’s not talking about MNRR, he’s talking about the infrastructure (not dispatching) between Newark and NYP - he could be referring to the ubiquitous tunnel problem, but that doesn’t exactly effect BOS - NYP trains, nor does it somehow make GCT a better terminus for such trains.

 

[DetroitTed]

OK - a vote for nostalgia as opposed to reason(s). Some of my fondest Amtrak memories ( and I have ridden it since inception) are taking trains from GCT to Albany in the 70's and early 80's. What a great experience and station. Stopping at Zabar's before getting on the train - fantastic( usually for a knish). Anyway, for all the reasons above, this will probably never happen which is a shame.

 

[jola]

I would like if they build a brand new Amtrak station in Sunnyside Yards. It could make sense as the area is promised to have a new LIRR station so it could be an easy connection for Long Island , close to subway and eliminates a congestion from Manhattan. It could come with a parking garage for people who want to leave a car and convenient for everyone who lives in Queens or Brooklyn.

 

[Tlcooper93]

In terms of nostalgia, arriving to NY at GCT on an intercity train would be glorious - and preferable for where I usually go in NYC.

 

[fdaley]

I think there would be more benefits than satisfying a craving for nostalgia. If Amtrak were to restore the earliest morning run from Albany to New York and then run two of the first four trains into Grand Central, that would be a great convenience for a lot of people headed to offices in that part of Manhattan or other destinations on the East Side. But there'd be downsides too -- the costs of operating at a second terminal, plus you'd lose those frequencies for travelers connecting to Philadelphia, Washington and beyond. Those passengers would be inconvenienced.

And I don't see how it really would attract a significant group of new riders. Except for the class of people who have the use of helicopters, Amtrak is the fastest, most comfortable way to get from Albany to Midtown now, regardless of which terminal it uses. So people going to office buildings on Lexington Avenue are already taking Amtrak to Penn and finding their way from there. The fact that is doesn't go to GCT isn't prompting them to fly, drive or take a bus instead, because all of those options are more of a hassle than going into Penn.

The only place where you might draw some additional riders is at the Kingston-Rhinecliff latitude, where there now are a fair number of people who drive to Metro North at Poughkeepsie. From there, they get direct service to GCT, many more schedule options, especially in the early morning, and significantly lower fares. So if Amtrak had a couple of GCT trains from Rhinecliff, some of those people might switch, given that the overall trip would be faster (fewer stops plus the ability to board closer to home). And the higher fare would be balanced by the fact that many people are now doing a lot more work from home so maybe only need to make the trip one or two days a week.

 

[west point]

Why on earth would anyone want to connect the Hudson Line to the Hell Gate Line to get to Penn Station? One could simply go to Penn Station from the the Hudson Line by running down the Empire Connection.

My point is that NYP needs 2 different routes fron both the Hudson line and the New Haven line. Sooner or later there will be an incident(s) that foul one of the routes (West side line or Hell Gate) to NYP. Ability of some partial service remaining IMO is important. As example is the published of off and on night time shut downs of the Hell gate line for the new MNRR service to NYP.

 

[Anderson]

Just as a note, in addition to the issues with MNRR, there's also the limit on the number of trains Amtrak can run NYP-BOS via the Shore Line due to bridge issues. So it very much behooves Amtrak to run those trains through wherever possible.

 

[Fenway]

The one thing we can all agree on is there will never be a tunnel connecting GCT and NYP, that train left over a century ago.

All I was suggesting was possible enhancements to Amtrak in and out of NYC.

 

[MARC Rider]

OK - a vote for nostalgia as opposed to reason(s). Some of my fondest Amtrak memories ( and I have ridden it since inception) are taking trains from GCT to Albany in the 70's and early 80's. What a great experience and station. Stopping at Zabar's before getting on the train - fantastic( usually for a knish). Anyway, for all the reasons above, this will probably never happen which is a shame.

Well, if it's nostalgia you want, how about restoring the 20th Century Limited (or, if the route can be turned into true high-speed rail, the 21st Century Limited), an all-deluxe service between Grand Central and LaSalle St. Station in Chicago? Complete with a red carpet at the gate.

 

[jis]

My point is that NYP needs 2 different routes fron both the Hudson line and the New Haven line. Sooner or later there will be an incident(s) that foul one of the routes (West side line or Hell Gate) to NYP. Ability of some partial service remaining IMO is important. As example is the published of off and on night time shut downs of the Hell gate line for the new MNRR service to NYP.

There already is two different routes there from the Hudson Line to NYP. One involves a reversal at New Rochelle. No new legs of any Wye need to be built. The Lake Shore Limited used it on a few days when the Empire Connection was out at one time.

Similarly there are already two routes available from the New Haven Line to NYP. One involves a reversal at Riverdale. No need to build anything for once in a blue moon need for use.

Now the reason one might wish to build the third leg of the DV Wye is to enable Harlem Line trains to access Penn Station, and that would be an entirely MNRR project if they so wish and not much to do with Amtrak.

Incidentally, the new Airo trains should make those reversals and use of multiple power modes much easier too.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Well, if it's nostalgia you want, how about restoring the 20th Century Limited (or, if the route can be turned into true high-speed rail, the 21st Century Limited), an all-deluxe service between Grand Central and LaSalle St. Station in Chicago? Complete with a red carpet at the gate.

I'll have a Gibson and the Brook Trout for Dinner as we roll up the Hudson!

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

If you want better service to the upper part of the city. No need to reroute the trains, just add a platform north of the NYP station.

Someplace between the tunnel entrance to NYP and the drawbridge just south of the split with MN like in Harlem section of NYC.

 

[Roomette11]

I don't think Amtrak needs to serve GCT itself. All that is needed is to allow through ticketing a transfer to Metro North to provide connecting access to GCT. The transfer could be done at stations where it would be a same platform transfer e.g. Stamford and Yonkers.

Absolutely!!! Second and third this! Through ticketing with MNRR and every other local passenger railroad. Make it easy for the customer to use your service, right? Technology should make this easier than ever, but bureaucratic inertia is a powerful obstacle.

If you want better service to the upper part of the city. No need to reroute the trains, just add a platform north of the NYP station.

Someplace between the tunnel entrance to NYP and the drawbridge just south of the split with MN like in Harlem section of NYC.

Interesting idea. Most logical place would be 125th St but the railroad is on a fairly high, long bridge at that point. But south of there it is a grade level in some places. Awkwardly, the railroad is on the river side of the West Side Highway, but the linear park over there is wildly popular. The highway is clearly not much of an obstacle.

 

[Roomette11]

No need to build anything for once in a blue moon need for use.

I’d be happy if they’d do the once-in-a-blue-moon detours. Annulments seem to be the rule now. Either way, no need to build anything.

 

[jis]

If you want better service to the upper part of the city. No need to reroute the trains, just add a platform north of the NYP station.

Someplace between the tunnel entrance to NYP and the drawbridge just south of the split with MN like in Harlem section of NYC.

See MNRR Penn Station Access Phase II. The best reference I could find is in Wikipedia:

Penn Station Access - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

It includes two stations on the Empire Connection - West 125th St. and 62nd St.

 

[daybeers]

Absolutely!!! Second and third this! Through ticketing with MNRR and every other local passenger railroad. Make it easy for the customer to use your service, right? Technology should make this easier than ever, but bureaucratic inertia is a powerful obstacle.

Since Amtrak crews operate Shore Line East, those tickets are available for purchase through the Amtrak app, including SLE-only intermediate stations, as of a couple months ago. It's very, very nice and much easier to compare between the Regionals and SLE on the CT shoreline.