Should more stations be manned again?

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Larry H.

Conductor
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Dec 22, 2006
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Here where I live in the midwest, most of the stations on the CN route of the City are still in place, but often you can not buy a ticket or get any help with boarding or luggage in advance of the train arriving. Them most irritating factor since the stations attendant was removed probably 15 years ago is that if you purchase tickets or have a voucher, you have to drive about 80 miles to the nearest manned station to obtain service. Not exactly a winning situation for many. Plus not being able to buy your tickets locally and have help with planning your trip are also something I miss. If rail service is to grow, or continues to grow should one expect eventually to see more stations remanned even if only during train arrival and departure times? In our case though with three trains a day to and from Chicago the use of the new waiting room, is spread over just about the whole day as it is.
 
Part of the problem is that Congress wants Amtrak to cut costs. And where do they cut costs - unstaff many stations! Your suggestion makes some sense at a station that sees many trains thru the day, but it doesn't make sense at a station that sees 1 train a day (or less) at 2 AM!
 
Are "unmanned stations" really unmanned (unpersoned)?

I mean that there is no employee at the station, at any time, ever?

I really have a feeling that the answer is that there is someone there, if nothing more than to empty the garbage pails, clean the platform, clear the sidewalks, etc.

So, why not give that employee a bit more responsibility? If he/she is there, for example, on Saturdays from noon to 5pm, then have them open the station master's window during that time, and give a face to Amtrak. If no one shows up, well, they just tend to their other tasks.
 
The problem isn't unstaffed stations. It's the lack of a Quik-Trak machine in place of staff. Is it that hard to install them at every station? It seems to me that they're only installed at relatively busy stations to supplement the ticket window.
 
Are "unmanned stations" really unmanned (unpersoned)?
I mean that there is no employee at the station, at any time, ever?

I really have a feeling that the answer is that there is someone there, if nothing more than to empty the garbage pails, clean the platform, clear the sidewalks, etc.

So, why not give that employee a bit more responsibility? If he/she is there, for example, on Saturdays from noon to 5pm, then have them open the station master's window during that time, and give a face to Amtrak. If no one shows up, well, they just tend to their other tasks.
My station in Palatka, FL has staff to maintain the museum they have inside, and I think they print out Greyhound tickets too, but for some odd reason they can't print out an Amtrak ticket. I get the feeling only Amtrak employees have the "authority" to print out tickets.
 
The problem is that with with only 25 million passengers, you're simply not able to pay 22'000 employees.

European railways carry ten times more passengers with the same number of employees.

=> The question is not whether a station should be manned or not, the question is how a station can be maintained at all.
 
I used to live in upstate NY, and my nearest station was FED (Fort Edward). Yes there was a station building, but it was unused by Amtrak. Also, think Beaumont, TX - there is not even a building there!

And as far as having a QT - who is going to refill it (yes it may need to be refilled with ticket stock) or provide security for it at 3 AM if the station is unmanned? :huh:
 
Are "unmanned stations" really unmanned (unpersoned)?
I mean that there is no employee at the station, at any time, ever?

I really have a feeling that the answer is that there is someone there, if nothing more than to empty the garbage pails, clean the platform, clear the sidewalks, etc.

So, why not give that employee a bit more responsibility? If he/she is there, for example, on Saturdays from noon to 5pm, then have them open the station master's window during that time, and give a face to Amtrak. If no one shows up, well, they just tend to their other tasks.
Our closest fair city saw to it some years ago to "Tear Down" the amtrak station after the station people were removed. Over time they realized that was a mistake and built a much smaller waiting room kind of affair that resembles a very tiny station. The only thing that happens there is the city takes care of the trash and rest rooms and once in a while locks the doors when a train isn't due for some time. But with three a day all coming at spread out times its often open most all the time. Also a place where some can display mischief if left to their own devices once in a while. But no, there is no person remotely related to operation of the rail system that helps anyone.
 
I guess it's what you consider to be inconvenient. The nearest station to me, staffed or otherwise, is 60 miles away. And it's open at odd hours only: 10PM to 5:30 AM. I have heard rumors that some of these unstaffed stations may be getting staffing. My uncle who lives near Champaign, IL said someone told him (I believe it was the ticket agent there in Champaign) that the station in Mattoon, IL, may be staffed again, among others. So maybe it will happenn.
 
It would seem were caught in that old self perpetuating problem.. Cost too much to staff and not enough ride, or maybe if we had the ability to sell people the tickets and provide an actual service more people would ride. It kind of reminds me of the idea to run one sleeper because of the cost of operating them. We all know how many people are trying unsuccessfully to book rooms all most all year long now. It should occur to someone that the very same thing happens in local transit.. The cost of running the trains and busses gets too costly, so what do they do, raise the fairs and cut some service. What happens next, the ridership falls naturally. I don't think a good business model is to continue to cut and expect better results, but that is the way things have been for a long time. In fact that is how we got in the mess of having a few hubs for Amtrak as it is.. Over half the system was cut out two or so years after Amtrak took over to "save" money, so the results were a more than 50% loss in ridership.. If we had the lines I believe that ridership would be several times what it is now and we wouldn't be talking about how to get trains to run on lines that have been allowed to fall apart..
 
I guess it's what you consider to be inconvenient. The nearest station to me, staffed or otherwise, is 60 miles away. And it's open at odd hours only: 10PM to 5:30 AM. I have heard rumors that some of these unstaffed stations may be getting staffing. My uncle who lives near Champaign, IL said someone told him (I believe it was the ticket agent there in Champaign) that the station in Mattoon, IL, may be staffed again, among others. So maybe it will happenn.
Yes to my Knowledge only Volunteers are working to maintain the Mattoon Station.. It still looks like no one cares about it when you pull in, a total disgrace that evidently no one seems willing to tackle...Down here at Centralia at least this past year the city actually spend money to put flower boxes and trees with plantings along several stretches of the line as it goes though town so that people on board would get a favorable view of the town.. Mattoon could use a lesson.
 
I used to live in upstate NY, and my nearest station was FED (Fort Edward). Yes there was a station building, but it was unused by Amtrak. Also, think Beaumont, TX - there is not even a building there!
And as far as having a QT - who is going to refill it (yes it may need to be refilled with ticket stock) or provide security for it at 3 AM if the station is unmanned? :huh:
I'm sure Amtrak could get someone to visit the stations when they need to be refilled. If the machine malfunctions occasionally, the conductors could honor reservation numbers.
 
I'm sure Amtrak could get someone to visit the stations when they need to be refilled. If the machine malfunctions occasionally, the conductors could honor reservation numbers.
Just out of curiosity, how long does it take to refill a QT? Could someone onboard a train, run out and do it, and then get right back onto the train?

Could one make a QT machine that is "hardened" like an ATM, to minimize vandalism?
 
I'm sure Amtrak could get someone to visit the stations when they need to be refilled. If the machine malfunctions occasionally, the conductors could honor reservation numbers.
Just out of curiosity, how long does it take to refill a QT? Could someone onboard a train, run out and do it, and then get right back onto the train?

Could one make a QT machine that is "hardened" like an ATM, to minimize vandalism?
It probably could be hardened beyond what it already has, but I'm not sure what the point is. There is no money in a Quik-Trak machine. It only takes credit cards and prints tickets, both pre-paid and ones just paid for with a credit card at the machine. So the only thing to steal would be the ticket stock, and without the various codes and a good working knowledge of what goes where on a ticket, the ticket stock would be pretty useless.

And no, I don't think it would be possible to have someone on board a train run out to refill the machine. In addition to union issues that would stop it, it just wouldn't be practical.
 
My local station is unmanned and the only thing that bothers me is handwritten tickets are a pain to get AGR points. A quiktrak machine would be nice, but it is probably not cost effective to install one.
 
I run into this problem a lot, as there isn't a single staffed station in Vermont! Most stations were staffed until 2001 when state budget cuts forced the unstaffing of the stations (and the termination of baggage service on the Vermonter, I believe).

I was talking to the station caretaker in Essex Jct one morning (he's a volunteer) and asked about the potential for a Quiktrak machine. He said that he and the other caretaker had contacted Amtrak about it, and there was some discussion, but the issue was this: Quiktraks must be maintained by Amtrak personnel according to the agreement with that Amtrak has with whatever union covers the Quiktrak maintainers. Amtrak can't allow a non-union employee to set up, service or maintain a Quiktrak under this agreement. Since there are no unionized Amtrak Quiktrak maintainers anywhere near Essex Jct, VT (I'd bet the closest are Springfield, MA or Albany) they'd have to have someone regularly drive 100+ miles every time the Quiktrak needed to be maintained, which was an expensive proposition. They were going to see if there was a way around this, but no one was really optimistic.

So I think this is the major roadblock to deploying Quiktraks in more far-flung stations.
 
I run into this problem a lot, as there isn't a single staffed station in Vermont! Most stations were staffed until 2001 when state budget cuts forced the unstaffing of the stations (and the termination of baggage service on the Vermonter, I believe).
I was talking to the station caretaker in Essex Jct one morning (he's a volunteer) and asked about the potential for a Quiktrak machine. He said that he and the other caretaker had contacted Amtrak about it, and there was some discussion, but the issue was this: Quiktraks must be maintained by Amtrak personnel according to the agreement with that Amtrak has with whatever union covers the Quiktrak maintainers. Amtrak can't allow a non-union employee to set up, service or maintain a Quiktrak under this agreement. Since there are no unionized Amtrak Quiktrak maintainers anywhere near Essex Jct, VT (I'd bet the closest are Springfield, MA or Albany) they'd have to have someone regularly drive 100+ miles every time the Quiktrak needed to be maintained, which was an expensive proposition. They were going to see if there was a way around this, but no one was really optimistic.

So I think this is the major roadblock to deploying Quiktraks in more far-flung stations.
Wow. Unions getting in the way of actuall progress? Who'd thunk?

This is a similar problem in North Carolina. Charlotte is a staffed station and the next one up the line is Greensboro. All the intermediate stops over 115 miles are staffed by NCDOT. There's a LOT of traffic servicing even LD trains though this area (especially Salisbury), but NO QT machines.

They need to let local non-Amtrak staff help out with these machines. Like has been mentioned, all that needs to be done is keep the paper and ink stocked. It would save a tremendous amount of paper work for conductors for passengers that buy last minute tickets with Julie or online. Stocking paper and ink (toner as the case may be) is not the same as handling money for Amtrak. There may be a misconception with the installation of QT machines that the station staff can help them, but that misconception already exists.

NC actually pays folks to sit at stations for boarding calls onto the trains and to call taxis when they are otherwise not already waiting. Other than that, they can't do anything Amtrak (except pass out schedules, then they pass out the NCDoT schedules first).

EDIT: Looks like Salisbury & Kannapolis have QT now. There is hope . . .
 
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They need to let local non-Amtrak staff help out with these machines. Like has been mentioned, all that needs to be done is keep the paper and ink stocked. It would save a tremendous amount of paper work for conductors for passengers that buy last minute tickets with Julie or online. Stocking paper and ink (toner as the case may be) is not the same as handling money for Amtrak. There may be a misconception with the installation of QT machines that the station staff can help them, but that misconception already exists.
I'm pretty sure a QT uses a thermal process to print the tickets, so there's no ink involved either. It would just be replacing the ticket stock and troubleshooting them if they ran into problems. The only other expense I can imagine is that stations would need to get an internet connection, which would run about $80/month per station. I'm not sure if QT machines can operate purely over phone lines, but the expense of having a dedicated phone connection would be the same, if not much more.

But yes, they really do need to allow non-Amtrak personnel to maintain them. I'd bet a major roadblock here is the fact that such a person would need to handle ticket stock, which theoretically could be used to produce fraudulent tickets with the right equipment. I'm sure blank ticket stock is very tightly controlled. I'd say this and the union issue would be the two big things.

If they'd allow someone to do this, I'd volunteer to maintain all the Quiktrak machines in northern Vermont. And I have a technical background so if they needed troubleshooting and such I could probably take care of it.
 
Has the idea of doing what the airlines do and have e-tickets been thought of for Amtrak?

I recently flew to Chicago and back and never talked to an agent, except at boarding. I printed my boarding passes on line and walked up to the gate to board.

Would there be inherent problems with letting Amtrak passengers print their own tickets on-line at home to take with them to board at non-staffed stations?

I guess there would be or maybe they'd be doing it already.
 
I was talking to the station caretaker in Essex Jct one morning (he's a volunteer) and asked about the potential for a Quiktrak machine. He said that he and the other caretaker had contacted Amtrak about it, and there was some discussion, but the issue was this: Quiktraks must be maintained by Amtrak personnel according to the agreement with that Amtrak has with whatever union covers the Quiktrak maintainers. Amtrak can't allow a non-union employee to set up, service or maintain a Quiktrak under this agreement.
What Amtrak needs, is to be able to "contract out" Quiktrak machines that are, just looking for a term, located at non-Amtrak stations (stations not owned or currently be operated by Amtrak). Possibly, if Amtrak would suggest to such station volunteers, "we will pay you $50 a week to keep this QT stocked", the volunteer would jump at the offer.

Since there are no unionized Amtrak Quiktrak maintainers anywhere near Essex Jct, VT (I'd bet the closest are Springfield, MA or Albany) they'd have to have someone regularly drive 100+ miles every time the Quiktrak needed to be maintained, which was an expensive proposition.
Drive? Back to the suggestion of riding the train from QT machine to QT machine location. Yea, I know that such a suggestion has already been trashed, but....
 
So how about a mobile quicktrak machine that rides in the train. It would be secure and if things broke the train would eventually get to the end of the line to be fixed. The would just need a cell connection which the conductor already needs to call in a handwritten ticket.
 
I was talking to the station caretaker in Essex Jct one morning (he's a volunteer) and asked about the potential for a Quiktrak machine. He said that he and the other caretaker had contacted Amtrak about it, and there was some discussion, but the issue was this: Quiktraks must be maintained by Amtrak personnel according to the agreement with that Amtrak has with whatever union covers the Quiktrak maintainers. Amtrak can't allow a non-union employee to set up, service or maintain a Quiktrak under this agreement.
What Amtrak needs, is to be able to "contract out" Quiktrak machines that are, just looking for a term, located at non-Amtrak stations (stations not owned or currently be operated by Amtrak). Possibly, if Amtrak would suggest to such station volunteers, "we will pay you $50 a week to keep this QT stocked", the volunteer would jump at the offer.

Since there are no unionized Amtrak Quiktrak maintainers anywhere near Essex Jct, VT (I'd bet the closest are Springfield, MA or Albany) they'd have to have someone regularly drive 100+ miles every time the Quiktrak needed to be maintained, which was an expensive proposition.
Drive? Back to the suggestion of riding the train from QT machine to QT machine location. Yea, I know that such a suggestion has already been trashed, but....
Most stations that are unstaffed have very little traffic - or potential for traffic - and therefore the dwell time at these stations is generally only 2-3 minutes. That is really not enough time to load and service a QT machine. Providing volunteers with ticket stock and training them is also not a logical option either. Most caretakers at these small stations and retired people who are not always dependable and/or interested in doing more than they have been hired for. I understand there is discussion about increasing the number of staffed stations to help with the over crowding on the train with passengers carrying on 3-4 pieces of luggage, since they are either coming from or going to an unstaffed station.
 
Has the idea of doing what the airlines do and have e-tickets been thought of for Amtrak?
I recently flew to Chicago and back and never talked to an agent, except at boarding. I printed my boarding passes on line and walked up to the gate to board.

Would there be inherent problems with letting Amtrak passengers print their own tickets on-line at home to take with them to board at non-staffed stations?

I guess there would be or maybe they'd be doing it already.
The conductors would have to have a way to verify that the eticket was real which I imagine would take a complete overhaul of the systems. Well they need to be overhauled anyway.
 
What if we just come at this problem from a different angle?

Is there really a huge problem with conductors handwriting tickets to pax?

Not really, except:

1) It becomes a massive pain to get my AGR points.

2) I can't make a reservation more than three days in advance for a ticket on the train, and thus can't use discounts/promotion codes, etc unless I'm booking more than nine days out to get my ticket mailed. Even if I'm booking without such codes, I can't lock in a lower bucket between 3-9 days out.

3) I can't book online or with Julie - I have to talk to an agent.

What if Amtrak just fixed the above? What if they came up with a way that paper tickets are handled for AGR purposes and instituted something that allowed me to reserve tickets online for payment on board if I was within nine days of departure?

Isn't that easier than outfitting hundreds of stations with Quiktraks?
 
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I run into this problem a lot, as there isn't a single staffed station in Vermont! Most stations were staffed until 2001 when state budget cuts forced the unstaffing of the stations (and the termination of baggage service on the Vermonter, I believe).
I was talking to the station caretaker in Essex Jct one morning (he's a volunteer) and asked about the potential for a Quiktrak machine. He said that he and the other caretaker had contacted Amtrak about it, and there was some discussion, but the issue was this: Quiktraks must be maintained by Amtrak personnel according to the agreement with that Amtrak has with whatever union covers the Quiktrak maintainers. Amtrak can't allow a non-union employee to set up, service or maintain a Quiktrak under this agreement. Since there are no unionized Amtrak Quiktrak maintainers anywhere near Essex Jct, VT (I'd bet the closest are Springfield, MA or Albany) they'd have to have someone regularly drive 100+ miles every time the Quiktrak needed to be maintained, which was an expensive proposition. They were going to see if there was a way around this, but no one was really optimistic.

So I think this is the major roadblock to deploying Quiktraks in more far-flung stations.
How often does a QuikTrak machine really need to be refilled? Most small stations on long distance routes average what, 10 passengers per train? I don't know how many tickets can be stored in a single machine, but if it can hold about 300, my station would only need to be refilled once a month. How expensive could it be to have someone drive to each station once a month to refill them? Definitely much less than staffing the station if you ask me. That's the whole purpose of having the machine. If you think about commuter railroads already do this on a larger scale. Yes the stations are closer, but there are more to visit and refill and it probably takes just as long if not longer than it would be if there were fewer stations farther apart.

The idea of allowing volunteers refill them is a great idea where it's possible, but many stations have nobody maintaining them period. This is typically the case at stations that are just small platforms with a shelter and a bench.
 
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