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DooBdoo

Train Attendant
Joined
May 25, 2014
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Just checked the bedroom price for 2 on the Meteor vs diner free for 2/22.

Meteor = $1477

No diner = $744

Does anyone have figures on how the diner-less service passenger load is

doing during the "experiment?"

Can we expect future short ribs or plastic wrapped sandwiches ?
 
For that much price difference I could just about live without the Diner PROVIDED the Cafe/Lounge is WELL STOCKED with an Enhanced Menu. And I would probably pack something along for first Meal.

I wonder if anyone in CNOC or wherever these decisions are made has even considered putting 2 Lounges on the Star; one for Coach and one for Sleeper. Not because each needs a different Menu but to spread out the crowds.
 
No. they have not. Instead what they have done is to remove one Coach from the Star reducing it to three Coaches so that the Lounge is able to adequately serve the train apparently, now that they have to serve only three Coaches and two Sleepers.
 
jis said:
No. they have not. Instead what they have done is to remove one Coach from the Star reducing it to three Coaches so that the Lounge is able to adequately serve the train apparently, now that they have to serve only three Coaches and two Sleepers.
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This is what is scary when common sense goes by the wayside. Any competent and successful business would be doing whatever they can to INCREASE business (ridership in this case) but then we all know how Amtrak seems to want to work.
 
DooBdoo said:
Just checked the bedroom price for 2 on the Meteor vs diner free for 2/22.

Meteor = $1477
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Assuming travel is from NYP to MIA, your choice of travel date has apparently netted you the high bucket bedroom charge of $1181, the others being $1027, $$827, $661 and $579. The $579 charge for a bedroom on the Meteor is first available on 28 Feb 2016. Use AmSnag... http://biketrain.net/amsnag/amSnag.php ...to search for the least expensive date of travel if your schedule has any flexibility. I said "apparently" above because when I did the search on AmSnag this morning, the Bedroom charge was only $827 on 22 Feb 2016.

Using AmSnag you'll find there are some travel dates when a Bedroom is $1181 but a Roomette is only $239. If you do try Amsnag, you'll notice the lowest Adult Coach fare is $118. That's the Saver Fare and is of no consequence with a sleeper.

Can't help with ridership or cuisine.
 
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DooBdoo said:
....

Does anyone have figures on how the diner-less service passenger load is doing during the "experiment?"

....
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First can we just call it a shortage of dinners, "experiment" even with quotes, is so fake. I do stand by the decision to drop the dinners to avoid major work, right before scrapping / retirement. However the need to spin this, was a mistake. I hope the person who made the call is looking for a new job.
 
Clearly it's a shortage of dinners. The diners are frustratedly going to the cafe to eat sandwiches for dinner. :)
 
Its a no win situation. Invest critically short funds on returning diners that will have a very short service life or using those dollars on equipment that have a future.

Its the manufacturer fault for not delivering the equipment per their contract.

We can point fingers, either way Amtrak and its passengers are the true losers.

One hope their are penalties for them to pay.
 
erierail said:
...

It's the manufacturer fault for not delivering the equipment per their contract.

We can point fingers, either way Amtrak and its passengers are the true losers.

One hope there are penalties for them to pay.
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Not sure we know whose fault, or if the delays were avoidable. Do we know about change orders from Amtrak? We've heard about shortcomings in the labor force's stainless-welding skills. How was that CAFs fault? After all, CAF basically opened a new assembly line for a production run of new model cars -- baggage cars, diners, and bag dorms -- not built before, and for Viewliner II sleepers almost new models.

My own opinion of CAF's work certainly improved by comparison when Nippon Sharyo's crash test of its new bi-level model went FAIL.

We'll know soon enuff. If Amtrak is mad at CAF the truth will out. But has anyone heard an ugly word, or even, you know, that tone of voice, when Amtrak brass discuss the CAF car delays? If so, I've missed it.

I'm still hoping for an all-is-forgiven-all-around deal that results in an "expired option" order for another 5 or 10 diners, 25 more sleepers, and 10 or 15 more bag dorms. Well, a guy can dream.
 
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The only blame I've heard applies to the quality of the labor force in Elmira. (Well, indirectly to the state government of NY for providing large incentives to locate the factory there, and indirectly to states with better labor forces for not providing such incentives.) I don't see any reason why Amtrak would have a dispute with CAF per se, especially if they've managed to solve their recruiting and training problems.

WoodyinNYC said:
I'm still hoping for an all-is-forgiven-all-around deal that results in an "expired option" order for another 5 or 10 diners, 25 more sleepers, and 10 or 15 more bag dorms. Well, a guy can dream.
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I keep recalculating the numbers. If #8400 stays in service, I don't think Amtrak needs more dining cars unless a Silver Palm is reintroduced.

I'm pretty sure Amtrak can *immediately* find productive ways to allocate at least 5 more bag-dorms, and at least 10 more sleeping cars, without a Silver Palm. It would be quite a waste not to get the extra single-level sleeping cars now, given the difficulty with making small orders. To allow for wrecks over the coming decades, a sensible minimum option order would be 10 bag-dorms and 15 sleeping cars -- should cost significantly less than $75 million, since part of the bid cost is setting up the factory. Worth it.
 
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I just noticed an update on Amtrak site that now the dining car will not be on the Silver Star through April 30, 2016. Does anyone know why?
 
jccpbc said:
I just noticed an update on Amtrak site that now the dining car will not be on the Silver Star through April 30, 2016. Does anyone know why?
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My guess is the delay in getting the new diners into revenue service.
 
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Cho Cho Charlie said:
Philly Amtrak Fan said:
More riders on SS, more revenue on SM.
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Though, is the greater revenue enough to completely offset (cover) the direct and indirect costs of the Diner car (employees, food, supplies, maintenance, ROI, etc)?
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Yes, it is enough. I just estimated this. There's no doubt about it.

It's close enough that there is an uncertainty about one thing, though: unfortunately, concentrating all the dining car passengers on one train may be necessary in order to cover those costs. It's not clear that running dining cars on both trains would give you enough added renevue to cover the costs of both dining cars.
 
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I think too, that it's 50-50, at best, that SS sees a diner again.

Damn I wish Joe Biden. would take the helm, no chance of that happening, but one can dream.
 
neroden said:
It's close enough that there is an uncertainty about one thing, though: unfortunately, concentrating all the dining car passengers on one train may be necessary in order to cover those costs. It's not clear that running dining cars on both trains would give you enough added renevue to cover the costs of both dining cars.
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That leads to the question of how much do the revenue numbers allotted to the dining cars improve when the new Viewliner sleeping cars arrive? Assuming the Star gets 3 sleeper cars and the Meteor 4 sleeper cars (and the Star get its diner restored), how much additional net sleeper revenue gets allocated to the dining car, thus reducing the official dining car operating loss?
 
Philly Amtrak Fan said:
Commenting on how the SS and SM compare since the SS lost its diner car.

August 15: SS 33,048 and $2,884,949, SM 32,814 and $3,571,248

September 15: SS 26,525 and $2,015,360, SM 25,039 and $2,509,232

October 15: SS 23,871 and $1,781,393, SM 20,786 and $2,069,382

https://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&cid=1241245669222

More riders on SS, more revenue on SM.
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Thanks for the link; Interesting stuff!

As you say, more riders on SS, more revenue on SM. But when I look at the data for the whole of FY15 which includes only a couple months of the SS operating without a diner (I believe), the SS had 383347 riders with revenue of $33.1M while the SM had 346097 riders with revenue of $38.5M. So it would seem that the SS typically has more riders than the SM and the SM typically has greater revenue than the SS even when the SS is operating with its diner.

Digging deeper into the FY15 data, the SS has 32703 sleeper passengers with revenue of $8.1M and 350644 coach passengers with revenue of $25M. For the SM the numbers are 43434 sleeper passengers with revenue of $12.1M and 302663 coach passengers with revenue of $26.4M. I believe it is true (correct me if I am wrong here) that the SS operates with two sleeping cars and the SM has three. This would clearly explain the increased number of sleeper passengers and sleeper revenue for the SM. I guess if the SS operated more coach cars than the SM that would explain the 48000 additional coach passengers on the SS but what I don't understand is how the SM has 48000 fewer coach passengers and $1.4M additional coach revenue. The only thing I can think of is the SS has a large number of passengers traveling only a very short distance that inflates the passenger count while adding very little to the total revenue.

Getting back to the original question of the SS diner and how that impacts revenue, average revenue per passenger in FY15 for the SS was $247/$71 (sleeper/coach) and for the three months reported above (Aug-Oct) was $198/$67. For the SM the numbers are $278/$87 (FY15) and $264/$82 (Aug-Oct). While the average coach revenue per passenger for both the SS and SM dropped about 5 to 6% from the FY15 numbers to those for Aug-Oct, as did the average sleeper revenue per passenger for the SM, the average sleeper revenue per passenger for the SS dropped almost 20%, a significant difference. I can only guess this significant reduction in the average SS sleeper revenue is due to the lower prices AMTRAK is asking for SS sleepers, which I supose is a statement of the obvious.

The Aug-Oct difference in the average sleeper revenue per passenger between the SS and SM was about $66. For FY15 this difference was $31. The loss of the SS diner (resulting in the decrease in SS sleeper prices) would seem to be the reason for this difference ($66 vs $31). Put another way, if the SS diner is returned to service (and SS sleeper prices increased) we might expect the average sleeper revenue per passenger on the SS to increase $35 (to restore the FY15 difference of $66). Is $35 per sleeper passenger enough to justify the returen of the diner to the SS? Does it even matter? I don't know the answer to these questions and will leave that for those who understand these numbers better than I can ever hope to.

For those that might wonder, I hope the diner is returned to the SS as I don't see much value in a LD train without a diner.
 
SS actually has fewer Coaches (one less) than SM in its no Diner incarnation. You can have higher ridership with lower overall revenues if one train has a large number of very short turn passengers whereas the other has fewer but longer distance passengers.
 
I also have a feeling we won't be seeing a diner return on The Star. As a small token of appreciation for riding a diner-less Star and still paying a hefty price,why doesn't Amtrak offer a $50 voucher toward food in the cafe car? $75 for two people..even $25 is something. How about one cup of coffee?Anything! Also it would be nice if the cafe car had a better selection of food as well.

The dining car is one of the great perks of Amtrak travel. It is sorely missed on The Silver Star.
 
I met an Amtrak employee at PHL a few days ago--we were both looking at the model train display, and I asked him what he did at Amtrak. He said "revenue management," and I mentioned the dining car needed to go back onto the Silver Star because passengers would not be riding it when they realized the dining car was gone. He said that was not his department (whoever is in charge of that department is hiding really well!), but his understanding was that the dining car was coming back May 1.

So either it is coming back or Amtrak is not telling even its management people the truth. We will see.
 
My sources within Amtrak still maintain that it is coming back as announced before.

benale said:
I also have a feeling we won't be seeing a diner return on The Star. As a small token of appreciation for riding a diner-less Star and still paying a hefty price,why doesn't Amtrak offer a $50 voucher toward food in the cafe car? $75 for two people..even $25 is something. How about one cup of coffee?Anything! Also it would be nice if the cafe car had a better selection of food as well.

The dining car is one of the great perks of Amtrak travel. It is sorely missed on The Silver Star.
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The Sleeper fares on the Star are already considerably lower than on the Meteor. You want a voucher over and above that?
 
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