South Bend Discussion Continuation

[jis]

I am attempting to move the South Bend discussion out of the Transportation Secretary thread

Honestly, the airport doesn’t really make sense as a route terminal for the South Shore passenger trains (as one of the links alludes to). In a transportation context, connecting to a small, little-served airport that barely sustains service to hub airports (including O’Hare, incidentally) doesn’t really add much value. It’s not like people are going to fly to South Bend just to take the train to Chicago (well, “normal” people; I’m sure some railfans will take that as a challenge).

Theoretically I guess the idea was similar to why Brightline chose Orlando Airport as their station location. But as you allude to, South Bend Airport is no Orlando International. The other impetus for moving there was that the ambiance around the Amtrak Station was and is not exactly great, and the then city bosses were perfectly happy to not worry about letting things rot further in that area. With the change in city government there is now interest in uplifting those areas of South Bend and there are various thoughts about using the South Shore station as an anchor to do so. Even if the South Shore is extended to Union Station, it may still stop at the current Amtrak station too.

Upgrading the route into Downtown South Bend and having an integrated stop with Amtrak has numerous possible benefits. Maybe even hang a carrot in front of NS’s face as well. If you can get a forward connection (i.e. one that doesn’t require backing out of CUS) to the St. Charles Air Line, Amtrak would love to move off the NS between Chicago and Porter, IN, on the Michigan Line trains. Add double-tracking the South Shore and a connection in South Bend, and you could possibly move the Capitol Limited and Lake Shore Limited over as well, all the way to South Bend.

At the South Bend end this move of Amtrak off of NS and onto South Shore could be pulled off even if South Shore does not move all the way to Union Station, by building a crossover onto NS east of the current Amtrak station, and restoring the South Shore line to the Amtrak Station. If in the process South Shore also moves to Amtrak Station that would allow some cost sharing, and possibly help redeveloping the area around what used to be Bendix and is now Curtis Products or some such..

The problem is, as with everything, our transportation networks are so disjointed and parochial that it takes a “small town mayor” budgeting a few million dollars to even possibly get something done in the South Bend area, when in reality, a large-scale view is needed to see that there are regional (and even national) transportation benefits to connecting the South Shore to downtown, combined with double-tracking, removing the street running in Michigan City (already under way), an improved connection to the St. Charles Air Line, and even improved rail capacity from Chicago Union Station to O’Hare Airport.

It is possible that Mayor Pete would have understanding of this situation specifically in this case and do something about it. Although he seems to have been fed the story that South Shore to downtown must run elevated over South Street, possibly an AECOM ruse to show higher costs for the downtown option. Consultants can be quite obtuse about such things depending on who is stuffing their pockets on the side.

There shouldn’t be flights from South Bend to O’Hare, and there doesn’t need to be a passenger train that ends at South Bend Airport. Instead, fast, direct train service from South Bend to O’Hare ought to be possible, using just a few infrastructure upgrades, some of which are already planned, a few others being on advocates’ wish lists.

Having your own tiny airport is such a major matter of prestige! Look at Harrisburg International at Middletown PA right next to (almost) the Middletown Keystone Corridor Station.

 

[Palmetto]

Moving to South Bend Union Station has its challenges, for sure. It is two levels, much like Metropark on the NEC, as the former New York Central ROW is elevated through the area. ADA guidelines will require an elevator. It would be better located than the current station out Bendix way, though. The other issue is that the station is now occupied by United Technology Center, and I'm not sure if it's even possible to carve out a little niche for a waiting room in the building. Mishawaka might be the best location for a new station stop, and eliminate both South Bend and Elkhart.

 

[jis]

Moving to South Bend Union Station has its challenges, for sure. It is two levels, much like Metropark on the NEC, as the former New York Central ROW is elevated through the area. ADA guidelines will require an elevator. It would be better located than the current station out Bendix way, though. The other issue is that the station is now occupied by United Technology Center, and I'm not sure if it's even possible to carve out a little niche for a waiting room in the building. Mishawaka might be the best location for a new station stop, and eliminate both South Bend and Elkhart.

If Union Station is sending NS into a tizzy, trying to get South Shore to Mishawaka would send them into a raving rage . I don't think anyone considers Mishawaka to be a practically achievable choice at this time.. Even just moving Amtrak there could be a challenge since it is right in the middle of the Elkhart - South Bend Black Hole. Compared to that the few challenges at Union Station are relatively minor, since push comes to shove, even if there is no access to the Classic station building, there is ample space to build an adequate station building there, and the land is mostly city owned or relatively easy to obtain, adjacent to the railroad.

 

[John Bredin]

The other issue is that the station is now occupied by United Technology Center, and I'm not sure if it's even possible to carve out a little niche for a waiting room in the building.

The plan years ago was to build a new bus hub next to the tracks about a block from Union Station, and then when permission was obtained build a platform and a bridge connecting the platform to the second level of the bus station. The bus station was built, and still awaits that permission. Google maps link.

 

[Seaboard92]

The big issue with South Bend Union Station isn't the NS yard in South Bend. It is because it is the junction between the Canadian National ex Grand Trunk Western and the former New York Central now Norfolk Southern. Two incredibly busy mainlines crossing right there. I could see where that could cause a bit of delay, but not enough to warrant stopping the project unless one was to run more trains a day out of South Bend which then it might.

 

[jis]

The big issue with South Bend Union Station isn't the NS yard in South Bend. It is because it is the junction between the Canadian National ex Grand Trunk Western and the former New York Central now Norfolk Southern. Two incredibly busy mainlines crossing right there. I could see where that could cause a bit of delay, but not enough to warrant stopping the project unless one was to run more trains a day out of South Bend which then it might.

I agree. If the South Shore is extended to Union Station and Amtrak is able to use the South Shore station, then the only point of conflict with Amtrak in that congested area would be at its entry into the station from the East, which would have to cross the flow of CN traffic in both directions. It may be an overkill for just two trains each way each day, but if there were more, then a single track flyover across the CN where it curves north would be in order. That is what any country that was serious about its passenger railroads would do.

The switch back to NS could be shifted far away from the congestion somewhere west of the Bendix site, if need be. Or switch back at Grand Junction in South Chicago, if Trog's grand plan for using South Shore instead of NS ever comes to pass.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Supposedly Mayor Pete is really intelligent and a quick learner( he was one of those " Consultants") and "Amtrak Joe" will have his back on Transportation issues and Infrastructure projects.

 

[jis]

Supposedly Mayor Pete is really intelligent and a quick learner( he was one of those " Consultants") and "Amtrak Joe" will have his back on Transportation issues and Infrastructure projects.

Maybe you meant this to go to the DOT Secretary thread? This thread is not about Pete. It is about South Bend, South Shore and Amtrak.

 

[IndyLions]

From my perspective, this is the best case scenario for South Bend - from someone who doesn’t live there but has used their transportation options and enjoyed their city as a visitor:

1. The planned freight connection between the South Shore line and the airport is built west of the airport. A Passenger platform on the airport west side is opened. Nothing more than a simple platform for loading/offloading passengers. The South Shore terminates there starting in 2022.
2. The South Shore tracks are extended to the Union Station area.
3. The South Shore and Amtrak move to the Union Station area downtown in 2025.
4. The South Shore no longer stops directly at the airport. A new Airport stop is created at the point where the freight line diverges from the main line. Passengers are shuttled directly to the airport with a light rail shuttle or more economically an airport style shuttle bus.

This leaves a million details to be determined, many of which jis alluded to in his post.

I do buy that a freight line to the airport on the west side of the airport makes sense. There will be an opportunity at some point to make the airport more relevant by competing with O’Hare on air freight.

And I think it’s important to continue to stop at the airport even after the South Shore moves downtown.

Notre Dame could also run dedicated student shuttles to the train station timed with train arrivals and departures. That’s a service my daughter’s university provided in Virginia.

 

[IndyLions]

...Or never switch back if Trog's grand plan for using South Shore instead of NS ever comes to pass.

The South Shore currently terminates at Millenium Station in Chicago. What is the scope of a project that would route it to Union Station instead and allow the CL and LSL to use the South Shore line all the way to South Bend?

 

[jis]

The South Shore currently terminates at Millenium Station in Chicago. What is the scope of a project that would route it to Union Station instead and allow the CL and LSL to use the South Shore line all the way to South Bend?

The Grand Crossing connector project. Adds a connection from ex-IC line to Millenium Station used by the South Shore, to the NS main line to Union Station.

You can see the (Preferred) Alternative A in this document:

http://www.grandcrossingrail.com/images/project_resources/maps/Build_Alternative_A.pdf
All the project resources can be found at:

http://www.grandcrossingrail.com/project_resources.html

 

[NES28]

The South Shore currently terminates at Millenium Station in Chicago. What is the scope of a project that would route it to Union Station instead and allow the CL and LSL to use the South Shore line all the way to South Bend?

There are two possible answers to this question:
1-Use the existing South Shore (including the extensive double-track that SS is about to break ground on, all the way to Kensington and take either the CN tracks or the Metra/ex-IC Electric to about McCormick Place where trains would switch to the "St. Charles Airline", the east-west line parallel to 16th Street in Chicago now used by Amtrak trains from Carbondale, IL. These trains cross over the Chicago River and the south Union Station leads and then back into Union Station. Rumor has it that Amtrak is seriously considering building a new bridge across the River that would permit a headin movement to the Station, which would save 20 minutes.
2-Use the existing South Shore as far west as Miller or Gary and then construct new passenger tracks in amongst the various freight tracks to the Calumet River which this line would cross on the unused ex-NYC bridge and more new tracks to where they reach the CN (ex-IC) at Grand Crossing, where a new connection would be built. The route from Grand Crossing to Union Station would be the same as in #1.

Either of these routes would be predominantly-passenger and could be shared by South Shore and Amtrak trains (including the Michigan trains, which would join in Michigan City), and remove Amtrak from freight congestion on the NS (getting past the NS 47th Street Yard in Chicago is a real challenge). Option #2 would significantly shorten running time for both Amtrak and South Shore.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

With or without the south shore being involved Amtrak really needs a dedicated passenger main in and out of Chicago. Michigan trains, Capitol, and Lake Shore is 12 trains per day as it is and they will probably add at least 1 more round trip on the Michigan line in the next decade and there SHOULD be another Chicago - NYC run as well.

 

[IndyLions]

With or without the south shore being involved Amtrak really needs a dedicated passenger main in and out of Chicago. Michigan trains, Capitol, and Lake Shore is 12 trains per day as it is and they will probably add at least 1 more round trip on the Michigan line in the next decade and there SHOULD be another Chicago - NYC run as well.

You are absolutely right. I still remember one of my trips on the Wolverine the last summer pre-Covid - on my way from Chicago to Jackson MI on a Friday night.

We were on-time out of Chicago, in our time slot - when we were sidetracked by NS for freight train after freight train (probably container trains - it was dark). I think I lost count - but it had to have been around 5 freights.

We were 4+ hours late into Jackson. That was criminal, in my opinion.