Standardizing Business Class

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cpotisch said:
You get curtains, nearly as much legroom as an Amfleet II, foot rests, and a complimentary soft beverage. You also get some bonus AGR points and a better cancellation policy. I personally don't think it's worth the extra cost, but it's definitely more than just a "can of soda".
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You can pay extra for a better cancellation policy on most trains, the Business Class one only seems to be marginally better than the Flexible option on coach. So better, potentially, but if you aren't guaranteed to get 2+1 seating or a snack pack, you need to give someone paying for an upgrade something. 

Legroom of standard coach is 39 inches and long distance coach is around 50 inches. ~11 inches is something, but you don't even get a middle arm rest on federal equipment. Coach on California trains have a middle arm rest along with Business Class. 

The following is a picture of Business Class on the Cascade trains. Something like that is what I am talking about being the standard rather than the seats that a regular person might not be able to perceive a difference between from a picture. 

cascade business.png
 
cpotisch said:
You get curtains, nearly as much legroom as an Amfleet II, foot rests, and a complimentary soft beverage. You also get some bonus AGR points and a better cancellation policy. I personally don't think it's worth the extra cost, but it's definitely more than just a "can of soda".
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The knock of effect of the increased legroom is fewer people in the car, so the noise level is generally quieter. 

All small things, but not just the can of soda. 
 
jis said:
I have no idea what you are asking. ;) In BC you get 25% additional TQP, in Coach you don't. Or are you seeking some deeper philosophy about it?
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So TQPs are directly tied to the amount of AGR points you’re earning? I thought it just had to do with how much you spent (correlation vs causation).
 
sttom said:
cpotisch said:
You get curtains, nearly as much legroom as an Amfleet II, foot rests, and a complimentary soft beverage. You also get some bonus AGR points and a better cancellation policy. I personally don't think it's worth the extra cost, but it's definitely more than just a "can of soda".
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You can pay extra for a better cancellation policy on most trains, the Business Class one only seems to be marginally better than the Flexible option on coach. So better, potentially, but if you aren't guaranteed to get 2+1 seating or a snack pack, you need to give someone paying for an upgrade something.
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Flexible Coach is usually much more expensive than Business Class. It's often more expensive than sleepers.
 
cpotisch said:
Flexible Coach is usually much more expensive than Business Class. It's often more expensive than sleepers.
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Sleepers? Checking for the Starlight EMY-LAX in two weekend shows no. Also not true for Sac-SLC. I'm sure it can happen, but often? I would want to see hard numbers. 

My point is that you can pay for the policy, that it isn't an exclusive thing. I am also not sure how much the cancellation policy matters compared to the seats and perks during the trip do. 

I will agree that paying for a Flexible is a waste of money in general. Amtrak's cancellation policies are...confusing even compared to Richard Anderson's last job. Delta's tickets are either considered refundable (not subject to cancellation fees) or non refundable which either has a fee or is a ticket that can't be changed. But seat classes and cancellation policies are a different can of worms. 
 
I looked at a one person trip. Either way, I don't think the cancellation policy is the operative selling point, nor does Business class have its own policy or rather coach being classified as "non refundable" like some airlines do. 
 
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Ryan said:
The knock of effect of the increased legroom is fewer people in the car, so the noise level is generally quieter. 

All small things, but not just the can of soda. 
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I've found the opposite with the noise level, at least on the NEC. Usually all the BC passengers are on the phone yapping about, well, business. I'm not a quiet car user, but I'd much rather listen to usual conversations instead of ones about stocks and real estate.
 
sttom said:
I looked at a one person trip. Either way, I don't think the cancellation policy is the operative selling point, nor does Business class have its own policy or rather coach being classified as "non refundable" like some airlines do. 
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You can always buy a refundable ticket in Coach on any major airline. It just costs much more. Just like Amtrak's flexible costs much more than value. There is also the extra twist in airlines about the notion of an "upgradeable fare" which is usually slightly higher than the lowest full service non-refundable but reusable for a fee fare. Of course now there is also the lowest single carryon fits under the seat fare too, that has been discussed elsewhere in this forum.
 
That still doesn't answer the question of does Business having the Flexible cancellation policy sell the upgrade to most people or are the potential for amenities? I would argue what are assumed to be amenities would be what sells most people. I'm sure some people would buy a business ticket for the sake of the refund policy, but is it a significant portion? 
 
Only the Surfliner has Business Class and the other two JPAs have been debating adding "something" someday. What is notably different with Pacific Business Class is that you do get a snack pack and drinks. You still have similar seats to Business on the NEC. 
 
sttom said:
Only the Surfliner has Business Class and the other two JPAs have been debating adding "something" someday. What is notably different with Pacific Business Class is that you do get a snack pack and drinks. You still have similar seats to Business on the NEC. 
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Including wine. 

But you do get more leg room and a better chance of finding a seat on the crowded Surfliners.  

As much as I think there needs to be a standard you need to realize that more leg room IS enough to call it business class. Look at the airlines charging extra for barely any extra leg room in “economy plus” or delta comfort. 
 
crescent-zephyr said:
Including wine. 

But you do get more leg room and a better chance of finding a seat on the crowded Surfliners.  

As much as I think there needs to be a standard you need to realize that more leg room IS enough to call it business class. Look at the airlines charging extra for barely any extra leg room in “economy plus” or delta comfort. 
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Premium Economy isn't supposed to be Business Minus, Some of Amtrak's routes would qualify as Business Minus especially the Surfuliner. My issue from a consumer advocacy standpoint is is that Business Class on some major routes are more Coach+. I would agree from a shallow cash grab stand point that calling long distance coach on a regional train as "business" but rebranding what is essentially a coach product as "business" and all you get is a drink and a slightly more forgiving cancellation policy, I have an issue with that. Given the length that some trains go, Business class on Amtrak is deficient to airlines in most of its classes on comparable length trips. 
 
It depends on what one is used to. For example, on the Eurostar anything with the word business associated with it seems to include full meal service at your seat. Premier Economy (or equivalent) comes with some snacks, which is more like Surfliner Business. So it is just quibbling over words that really don;t have any universal meaning.
 
cpotisch said:
I think many people here would dispute the claim that BC on the Surfliner counts as "Business Minus".
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Without a consistent product, some scale needs to be used to compare the multiple business classes against each other. Which gets to the heart of the problem. You can get mad about 1.7 not equaling 1.9, but that doesn't make them the same. 
 
sttom said:
cpotisch said:
I think many people here would dispute the claim that BC on the Surfliner counts as "Business Minus".
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Without a consistent product, some scale needs to be used to compare the multiple business classes against each other. Which gets to the heart of the problem. You can get mad about 1.7 not equaling 1.9, but that doesn't make them the same. 
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What I'm saying is that the Surfliner arguably offers the best BC product in the Amtrak system. So I feel like, by Amtrak's standards, it's hard to not call that true Business Class.
 
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cpotisch said:
What I'm saying is that the Surfliner arguably offers the best BC product in the Amtrak system. So I feel like, by Amtrak's standards, it's hard to not call that true Business Class.
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I'm only giving the Surfliner a minus for not being 2+1 like other trains in the Amtrak system have. I would consider most of the 2+2 "business" class cars Coach+
 
sttom said:
cpotisch said:
What I'm saying is that the Surfliner arguably offers the best BC product in the Amtrak system. So I feel like, by Amtrak's standards, it's hard to not call that true Business Class.
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I'm only giving the Surfliner a minus for not being 2+1 like other trains in the Amtrak system have. I would consider most of the 2+2 "business" class cars Coach+
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2x1 seating is a VERY small part of what can distinguish the Business Class hard product, when you consider the fact that it only affects seat width. There are just so many other factors.

Upgrade to Pacific Business Class


Enjoy unique amenities when you upgrade such as a 25% point bonus for Amtrak Guest Rewards members; seating in a dedicated car with service attendant; additional leg room; a complimentary glass of wine, non-alcoholic beverages, and light snacks; access to the Amtrak Metropolitan Lounge in Los Angeles; priority boarding in San Diego; and a fully refundable ticket if canceled prior to departure.
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In almost every respect other than the number of seats in a row, BC on the Surfliner is a significant bump up from coach. I just think you're getting a bit too focused on seat width, and should consider some of the other factors that can make or break Business Class.
 
cpotisch said:
2x1 seating is a VERY small part of what can distinguish the Business Class hard product, when you consider the fact that it only affects seat width. There are just so many other factors.

In almost every respect other than the number of seats in a row, BC on the Surfliner is a significant bump up from coach. I just think you're getting a bit too focused on seat width, and should consider some of the other factors that can make or break Business Class.
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I am well within my rights to consider 2+1 a defining factor of business class if just having more leg room is enough to clinch the definition for you. I would consider just 2+1 with no other amenities more or less coach+ as well. Well Coach++

Well for the sake of fun I will jot up a rating system Surfliner Business in a 2+1 would be a 5. Existing Pacific and Cascade business being a 4.  Midwest Business would be a 3. NEC and other 2+1's without amenities being a 2 and Starlight business would be a 1. 
 

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