Starlight 7 hour delay - waiting for a bus? (8/21)

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texline

Service Attendant
Joined
Oct 8, 2016
Messages
127
I heard 11 was delayed because it was waiting for a connecting bus. I have read here many times Amtrak will only wait so long so I was surprised that was the reason. Does Amtrak have a time frame on bus connections? Thanks.
 
When you have an event like a total solar eclipse, you throw out the regular playbook.

The connecting bus yesterday was coming down from Redmond/Bend, right out of the heart of the eclipse-watching zone. The traffic heading out of that area yesterday was horrendous (as predicted). Getting to Chemult was no piece of cake.

Was holding the train that long for the bus a good idea? Well, if they had known it was going to be a 7 hour delay, they probably wouldn't have waited. It probably started as being a 1-2 hour delay, then it just got later and later, etc.

Then you had the practical matter of what to do with those bus passengers if they missed the train connection. Chemult is basically a wide spot in the road. There's a couple of podunk hotels, and those were likely sold out. So what do you do...take everyone back to Bend? (More hotels, but probably also sold out). Do you drop them off at a 24-hour truck stop in Chemult? Bear in mind, Chemult is an unstaffed station, so there were no Amtrak personnel on hand to give out vouchers or what-have-you.

I would guess it was disappointing for those on the train, but there didn't seem to be a lot of other options.
 
Then you had the practical matter of what to do with those bus passengers if they missed the train connection. Chemult is basically a wide spot in the road. There's a couple of podunk hotels, and those were likely sold out. So what do you do...take everyone back to Bend? (More hotels, but probably also sold out). Do you drop them off at a 24-hour truck stop in Chemult?
They were on a BUS, a thing with wheels that can move anywhere, not just to nearest Amtrak station. You take the passengers in the bus to where the train was going, whether it is SEA, PDX, SAC or whatever station where you can service them. Yes it would be a long-ass bus journey, but still preferred over holding other passengers in a train hostage for 7 hours for no fault of theirs.
 
Then you had the practical matter of what to do with those bus passengers if they missed the train connection. Chemult is basically a wide spot in the road. There's a couple of podunk hotels, and those were likely sold out. So what do you do...take everyone back to Bend? (More hotels, but probably also sold out). Do you drop them off at a 24-hour truck stop in Chemult?
They were on a BUS, a thing with wheels that can move anywhere, not just to nearest Amtrak station. You take the passengers in the bus to where the train was going, whether it is SEA, PDX, SAC or whatever station where you can service them. Yes it would be a long-ass bus journey, but still preferred over holding other passengers in a train hostage for 7 hours for no fault of theirs.
I disagree. From what I have heard about the trains during the eclipse, about half the train's passengers were probably on that bus. I would much rather have two 7 hours delays with both on the train rather than one on-time train and a 7 hour late bus.
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Then you had the practical matter of what to do with those bus passengers if they missed the train connection. Chemult is basically a wide spot in the road. There's a couple of podunk hotels, and those were likely sold out. So what do you do...take everyone back to Bend? (More hotels, but probably also sold out). Do you drop them off at a 24-hour truck stop in Chemult?
They were on a BUS, a thing with wheels that can move anywhere, not just to nearest Amtrak station. You take the passengers in the bus to where the train was going, whether it is SEA, PDX, SAC or whatever station where you can service them. Yes it would be a long-ass bus journey, but still preferred over holding other passengers in a train hostage for 7 hours for no fault of theirs.

Normally this service is operated with either 12 or 31 passenger vehicles, depending on demand. I would assume the larger vehicle was used. And yes, it's possible the contract carrier swapped in a regular bus, or even multiple buses. Normally the vehicles they use don't have bathrooms. Sacramento is a 370 mile drive. Not sure driving the folks down to SAC on the spur of the moment would have made a lot of sense in any case.

Probably the closest thing to a logical alternative would have been to drive them another 70 miles to Klamath Falls, which was further from the path of totality and *might* have had hotel rooms. But even so, the "bus" would have pulled into KFalls around 4 a.m., and hopefully the Amtrak agent would be willing to get out of bed to process several dozen hotel vouchers, etc, etc.

Hindsight is always 20-20. I'm not sure in the annals of Amtrak history, making people wait 7 hours on a LD train that's presumably well-provisioned with amenities is really the worst-case scenario. But of course had I been one of those waiting passengers, I might feel differently.
 
Not knowing better, I'd say yes.

"A large percentage" I would take being in excess of 100-150 people. I do not know of any busses that large!

When I was bustituted due to a freight derailment when I was on the Cardinal, 3 buses were used. When I was bused from the CS to make a connection to the EB, 2 buses were used. And that was only the connecting passengers. All other passengers on the CS srayed on the train. (The EB departed PDX shortly after the buses arrived, and over 1/2 hour before the CS arrived. The drive up I-5 was faster.)
 
From what I have heard about the trains during the eclipse, about half the train's passengers were probably on that bus.
Half a train worth of passengers on a bus? Is Coast Starlight running as a single car streetcar, or was the "bus" an Airbus 380? :ph34r:
It is likely more than one bus was used since it was a special occasion. Either way, it was just an estimate, so it is not precise.
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Let's just nix the argument of holding the train for X amount of passengers. The delay on the bus did cause the train to be delayed, but it did not cause it to be delayed 7 hours. As usual, there was more to the situation than the public knows or needs to know. And I'm sorry, but I'm going to leave it at that.

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I'm hearing from a reliable source that the bus, which runs from Redmond, OR, got stuck in eclipse-related traffic, and then ran out of fuel after several hours' delay.
 
I'm hearing from a reliable source that the bus, which runs from Redmond, OR, got stuck in eclipse-related traffic, and then ran out of fuel after several hours' delay.
Didn't hear about that, but would make sense. There still appears to be more to it though.
Explains the delay. At last check (minutes ago), the train has not yet started its coastal run. Expect a late departure for 14 tomorrow morning.
They kept on getting screwed. Had to wait an hour at one point for a freight.
 
I took 14(19) up to Chemault and connected to the bus to Redmond on Sunday. It was a a small (30 passenger?) bus, about half full, but everyone was heading to the eclipse. I rented a car and drove up to Madras, which was ground zero. Coming back on Monday, I left within 10 minutes of the end of totality, and it took me 7 hours just to get back to Redmond, about 25 miles away.

My plan was to fly back and I had a seat on an 8pm United flight to SFO (that's the short version :). I made it to the airport, but apparently unrelated computer problems kept the inbound flight on the ground at SFO, and they eventually cancelled it around 10:30pm. At that point, there were no seats on any flights heading south out of Oregon until Friday -- that includes Portland, Redmond and Eugene. So United (Skywest, actually) put us up at a Super 8 motel, where the room rate was $315, and told us our best bet was to rent cars -- Avis and Hertz had a special deal, $100 to anywhere in California. They had a lot of cars they had to get back.

I drove down to Sacramento yesterday, and caught a plane to southern California (that's the short version, again :). Traffic was still heavy on US 97 from Bend, through K Falls to the I-5 junction at Weed. Heavy, but moving at nearly the speed limit.

If Amtrak held 11 to wait for the bus -- I doubt there was more than one -- then they made the right call. It was pretty much an evacuation situation.

That said, it was all very orderly and well mannered -- good natured, even. Everyone I was with, including a planeload of stranded passengers, took it in stride. It was an awesome celestial event, and the hassles of getting home seemed petty in comparison.
 
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I took 14(19) up to Chemault and connected to the bus to Redmond on Sunday. It was a a small (30 passenger?) bus, about half full, but everyone was heading to the eclipse. I rented a car and drove up to Madras, which was ground zero. Coming back on Monday, I left within 10 minutes of the end of totality, and it took me 7 hours just to get back to Redmond, about 25 miles away.

My plan was to fly back and I had a seat on an 8pm United flight to SFO (that's the short version :). I made it to the airport, but apparently unrelated computer problems kept the inbound flight on the ground at SFO, and they eventually cancelled it around 10:30pm. At that point, there were no seats on any flights heading south out of Oregon until Friday -- that includes Portland, Portland and Eugene. So United (Skywest, actually) put us up at a Super 8 motel, where the room rate was $315 and told us our best bet was to rent cars -- Avis and Hertz had a special deal, $100 to anywhere in California. They had a lot of cars they had to get back.

I drove down to Sacramento yesterday, and caught a plane to southern California (that's the short version, again :). Traffic was still heavy on US 97 from Bend, through K Falls to the I-5 junction at Weed. Heavy, but moving at nearly the speed limit.

If Amtrak held 11 to wait for the bus -- I doubt there was more than one -- then they made the right call. It was pretty much an evacuation situation.

That said, it was all very orderly and well mannered -- good natured, even. Everyone I was with, including a planeload of stranded passengers, took it in stride. It was an awesome celestial event, and the hassles of getting home seemed petty in comparison.
Thanks for the context and the perspective. This was truly an unusual situation. Sitting in Chemult on a Superliner train for 7 hours sounds like a pretty good alternative compared to that canceled United flight.

I think one of the lessons here for next time (2024!) is that whether you take Amtrak, a flight, or drive your own car, there is value to spending an extra day or two in the area before you try to leave. I've heard so many stories from people (mostly in their cars) sitting in traffic for hours and hours afterwards.
 
Here's an article about this: https://www.thebaycitybeacon.com/politics/eclipse-accidentally-destroys-amtrak-for-hours/article_ef146ec6-8841-11e7-8ece-63c4d895ea63.html#comment-3484203957

"The train held for seven hours at Chemult, Oregon. It started when a connecting bus from Bend, Oregon was delayed due to traffic, but then Amtrak missed its slot on Union Pacific's busy I-5 freight corridor and had to wait further. The Amtrak crew timed out: labor rules mandate break periods and maximum hours of work per day. In situations of extreme delays, the crew is sometimes compelled to abandon the train or bus and strand the passengers until the company can find a replacement. In this case, Amtrak had to borrow a crew from Union Pacific, since it had no available train driver who had qualified for the segment across the Oregon/California state line. The bus itself, delayed for hours, had passengers who were stuck for eight hours with no restroom.


But the delays did not end when Amtrak found a qualified train crew. There were further delays getting into California, and there was a crew change at Redding and another hold for a freight train at Yuba City. Finally, at Sacramento, the train had to be refueled and provisioned with water. Nor did the delays only affect the Coast Starlight: a few passengers had booked connecting tickets to the California Zephyr, which connects Emeryville and Chicago, and Amtrak held this train at Reno for a few minutes to allow for bus connections from the Starlight at Sacramento."

The author's next conclusion is questionable, although understandable given that he is writing from Paris. He thinks they should have given hotel vouchers, but the likelihood of any hotel available in Chemult is dubious, and out of those there would be no assurance of quality. Klamath Falls has exactly two chain hotels I would put someone in - the Holiday Inn Express and the Days Inn, and those would be likely booked, much like Portland was basically sold out for the major chain hotels Sunday and Monday night. Also while train hours of service regulations come into play, bus ones would have well. If the bus driver was driving more than 10 hours they are violating the law. So you have the option of a roach infested motel in Chemult, if one is even available, or sleeping on the side of the road, if the train doesn't wait. This is an unusual situation, but one that Amtrak picked the best out of several bad options.
 
And now the author is arguing that the bus should have just turned around and gone back to Bend if they knew that it was going to be a seven hour delay (I doubt they did), and Amtrak should have found hotel rooms in Bend for the ones who needed them (if any were available, which the author seems to believe), in order to not delay the hundreds of through riders on the train. https://twitter.com/alon_levy/status/900622393252728832

If TiBike found a room at a Super 8, it's possible Amtrak could have called around, although would anyone in DC know it was an acceptable solution? Presumably those at Skywest knew since they live in the area.
 
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If TiBike found a room at a Super 8, it's possible Amtrak could have called around, although would anyone in DC know it was an acceptable solution? Presumably those at Skywest knew since they live in the area.
It was a solution that was explored and finding the appropriate number of rooms proved problematic. As you indicated, there were other considerations. The hours of service limits for the train and bus crews is not a contractual rule. It is federal rule that is not easily ignored. As such, attempting to send the bus to another location wouldn't have yielded favorable results when the driver went on the law with relief stuck in the same traffic. The amount of time it took that bus to complete the last 10 miles is unbelievable (except TiBike would probably believe it) and I can easily see why they initially decided to wait. It probably would have been quicker if they let the passengers walk from their location to the train station.

However, the original question is whether there is a time limit on holding connections. The answer is it depends on the circumstances and available options. As indicated above, the train was not held 7 hours for a connecting bus.
 
I was on this train. During the delay, we had no communication from the staff at all; is that normal? When arriving at Chemult, there was an announcement from the conductor that a bus was late, so we'd be delayed for "ten or fifteen minutes". We then heard nothing (except cafe car announcements and stuff) until arriving at Dunsmuir, thirteen hours later. Is not saying anything about delays Amtrak's policy?

"there was more to the situation than the public knows or needs to know."

Needs to know? Amtrak is a (taxpayer-funded) railroad service, it's not the CIA. Amtrak is legally subject to FOIA, and I'll be filing a FOIA request to find out more about what happened.
 
I was on this train. During the delay, we had no communication from the staff at all; is that normal? When arriving at Chemult, there was an announcement from the conductor that a bus was late, so we'd be delayed for "ten or fifteen minutes". We then heard nothing (except cafe car announcements and stuff) until arriving at Dunsmuir, thirteen hours later. Is not saying anything about delays Amtrak's policy?

"there was more to the situation than the public knows or needs to know."

Needs to know? Amtrak is a (taxpayer-funded) railroad service, it's not the CIA. Amtrak is legally subject to FOIA, and I'll be filing a FOIA request to find out more about what happened.
Welcome to Amtrak Unlimited! Sorry about your experience. I am sure it was frustrating.

Amtrak is a mixed-bag when it comes to communicating with passengers. (Airlines are too, of course...not that that excuses anything.)

The crew likely did not know much more than you did, and didn't want to give our additional erroneous information. However, they could have at least said "we don't know how long we'll be here." A second factor is that much of your time in Chemult was during the "quiet hours" when overhead PA announcements are typically not made except in the case of emergency. I'm guessing the cafe car announcements would have been before 10 p.m.? That would still have been relatively early in your delay. Still, it wouldn't hurt for a conductor to occasionally pass through the coaches in order to answer questions.

As far as a FOIA request, Amtrak has a handy link that explains how to do that. Whether it's worth your time and efforts to follow through is up to you, of course.

A colleague of mine flew from JFK to PDX on Tuesday evening and her flight was delayed by 8 hours, and she didn't arrive into PDX until 4:30 a.m. (and had to go to work the "next" day. My point is that crud happens when you travel. Sometimes it just makes sense to shake it off and move on. No one would blame you if you chose not to use Amtrak the next time you travel, though.
 
I was on this train. During the delay, we had no communication from the staff at all; is that normal? When arriving at Chemult, there was an announcement from the conductor that a bus was late, so we'd be delayed for "ten or fifteen minutes". We then heard nothing (except cafe car announcements and stuff) until arriving at Dunsmuir, thirteen hours later. Is not saying anything about delays Amtrak's policy?
I've been on trips where the train is only stopped for five minutes before the conductor gets on the PA to warn everyone of a potential delay, only to start moving again five minutes later. On those occasions it sometimes seems like Amtrak staff are jumping the gun a bit. However, when things really do go south Amtrak often seems to go strangely silent with warnings and updates.

The delay on the bus did cause the train to be delayed, but it did not cause it to be delayed 7 hours. As usual, there was more to the situation than the public knows or needs to know. And I'm sorry, but I'm going to leave it at that.
Needs to know? Amtrak is a (taxpayer-funded) railroad service, it's not the CIA. Amtrak is legally subject to FOIA, and I'll be filing a FOIA request to find out more about what happened.
That retort sounded flippant and condescending to me as well. I’d be annoyed if I went several hours with no meaningful updates and then another Amtrak employee implied I had no right or expectation to know what was going on or why. If he has nothing productive to add to the discussion then why post anything?
 
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