Sumitomo/Siemens contract for 137 Cars (former bi-levels)

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

John Santos

Lead Service Attendant
Joined
Jun 24, 2018
Messages
287
They also happen to be ADA specified. I am not sure how much seating space would be lost if a smaller non-ADA toilet was added. Perhaps two rows, so 9 Coach seats or 6 BC seats roughly. At the end of the day it is a tradeoff.
I think it would be closer to 4 seats, not 9. Amtrak coach is 2+2. Replacing two rows of seats on ONE side would remove 4 seats. I think 3 rows of seats would be enough for a second accessible restroom.
 

jis

Chief Dispatcher
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
Gathering Team Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2003
Messages
32,734
Location
Space Coast, Florida, Area code 3-2-1
I think it would be closer to 4 seats, not 9. Amtrak coach is 2+2. Replacing two rows of seats on ONE side would remove 4 seats. I think 3 rows of seats would be enough for a second accessible restroom.
You are more likely to be correct than me. I was shootin' from the hip on this one ;)
 
Joined
May 13, 2014
Messages
646
Location
Boston & Florida
Your surmise is correct to an extent. Let me try to explain....

The thing to understand and that many miss is that the non-deformation upon the application of 800 Klb longitudinal static force applied to the entire car body in the past.

What has changed is that the car is seen as a structure consisting of two distinct components in the new standard. It consist of an outer car body, which now is allowed to deform into the crumple zone, and an inner safety cage which is not allowed to deform. Passenger occupancy must be limited to the inner safety cage.

The Talgos have the passenger safety cage that does not deform, as was amply demonstrated, but the car body does deform, hence it was not compliant with the old standard but a new train built similarly would comply with the Tier III standard.

The same 800,000 lb test has to be applied to the new cars to verify that the safety cage does not deform. In a well built car (like the Ventures) a static force of 800,000lb won't cause the outer car body to crumple either, and hence by default it will pass. The crumple zones come into play when there is a high energy collision when there is more energy that needs absorbing than in a static test. In that situation, these cars will deform in a predictable way while preserving the passenger safety cage, and not fold up like the Amfleet II Lounge did in the Silver Star. The energy will be absorbed instead into the crumple zone keeping the rest of the car safe.

I don't know if all that makes sense. If not let me know, and I will try again.

Thanks that was very helpful but please allow me to question the basic premise. So the entire car is just as strong and safe as any other car out there (800,000 lb). Now the crumble zones are additional to this and will only come into play if there is a catastrophic higher force impact. Having the entire body safe up to 800,000 lbs provides the same protection as any other car where seats and rooms are placed right next to the bulkhead.

So from what you are saying the interior space needs is be reduced for crumble zones that are only activated for a catastrophic event that would be extremely rare and probably not likely to happen. The risk involved is extremely small and the addition of a second bathroom would be a nice convenience for all passengers even though there is that crazy one-in-a-million chance that the restroom would be occupied and compromised in a massive crash. You can't protect people from everything. Should we stop passage through the vestibules? That has probably resulted in many more deaths in actual collisions.

It just seems like this is overkill for a car that is probably never going to exceed 125 mph. It makes more sense for very highspeed rail equipment which this is not. But I get it and appreciate your explanation.
 
Last edited:

neroden

Engineer
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
9,549
Location
Ithaca, NY
I don't have the link at the moment, but there has been recent mention of poor quality parts problems in official reports from the committee which is managing this car order, so it is not just speculation unfortunately.
I took that to be a veiled reference to the lead-contaminated plumbing, mostly. Which we all know about but they're being really vague about it in order to not scare people who haven't heard about it yet, I guess.
 
Joined
Mar 10, 2016
Messages
1,385
Thanks that was very helpful but please allow me to question the basic premise. So the entire car is just as strong and safe as any other car out there (800,000 lb). Now the crumble zones are additional to this and will only come into play if there is a catastrophic higher force impact. Having the entire body safe up to 800,000 lbs provides the same protection as any other car where seats and rooms are placed right next to the bulkhead.

So from what you are saying the interior space needs is be reduced for crumble zones that are only activated for a catastrophic event that would be extremely rare and probably not likely to happen. The risk involved is extremely small and the addition of a second bathroom would be a nice convenience for all passengers even though there is that crazy one-in-a-million chance that the restroom would be compromised in a massive crash. You can't protect people from everything. Should we stop passage through the vestibules? That has probably resulted in many more deaths in actual collisions.

It just seems like this is overkill for a car that is probably never going to exceed 125 mph. It makes more sense for very highspeed rail equipment which this is not. But I get it and appreciate your explanation.
I **think** it's a bit more nuanced than that - it also allows the cars to be substantially lighter if I'm understanding correctly, but saving money, materials an6 fuel. That's how modern cars are built as well - with crumple zones - I remember a story a college classmate had about the crumple zone in his VW Rabbit which allowed him to walk away unscathed (iirc) - as a total aside I've seen some crazy videos where a Range Rover hitting a little Nissan basically flips over!
 

neroden

Engineer
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Messages
9,549
Location
Ithaca, NY
I **think** it's a bit more nuanced than that - it also allows the cars to be substantially lighter if I'm understanding correctly, but saving money, materials an6 fuel.
That's correct. The crumple zone means the "survival box" or "safety cage" (I forget the official name of it) within the train car can pass the crush tests (etc) with far lighter materials, much less weight, than the old "the entire train car has to survive" system.
 

amtrakpass

Service Attendant
Joined
Jan 21, 2016
Messages
199
Reliable sources report on other forums that all venture cars have been removed from revenue service due to magnets in the at- seat tables being too strong and damaging passengers personal electronic devices.
Hopefully the issue won't take too long to resolve
 

Cal

Engineer
Joined
Jan 23, 2021
Messages
3,864
Location
Socal
Reliable sources report on other forums that all venture cars have been removed from revenue service due to magnets in the at- seat tables being too strong and damaging passengers personal electronic devices.
Hopefully the issue won't take too long to resolve
Why didn't Brightline get these same issues?!?!? My god Amtrak/IDOT can't get enough.
 

Dutchrailnut

Conductor
Joined
Jul 4, 2006
Messages
1,195
Location
Brookfield, Connecticut, USA
think story is hogwash , todays electronics have little trouble with magnets , at one time maybe when tapes were used. even todays Hard drives have magnets so powerful they exceed those of speakers and fire door magnets .
I have two I just removed from a Seagate that are so powerful it takes tools to pull them apart.
 

AmtrakBlue

Engineer
Gathering Team Member
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
13,905
Location
Delaware
think story is hogwash , todays electronics have little trouble with magnets , at one time maybe when tapes were used. even todays Hard drives have magnets so powerful they exceed those of speakers and fire door magnets .
I have two I just removed from a Seagate that are so powerful it takes tools to pull them apart.
Well, those magnets could affect me, if I were to lay my head down on them (if they are strong). I have magnets under my scalp on both sides of my head. ;) Only one side is MRI safe.
 

tgstubbs1

OBS Chief
Joined
Mar 3, 2020
Messages
645
think story is hogwash , todays electronics have little trouble with magnets , at one time maybe when tapes were used. even todays Hard drives have magnets so powerful they exceed those of speakers and fire door magnets .
I have two I just removed from a Seagate that are so powerful it takes tools to pull them apart.
Maybe the phone sticks too good?
Just add a layer of tape.
 

amtrakpass

Service Attendant
Joined
Jan 21, 2016
Messages
199
The fact is the cars that had been in service are now out of service. As to the reason, the source of the info has had previous accurate info regarding Siemens equipment such as the charger locomotives for many years so I am inclined to believe the report. If it is not the case and there is another reason the cars are out of service perhaps the reports the midwest/california consortium puts out will show more details in the coming months.
In any event, thankfully it does not sound like structural or equipment issue that would affect things over the long term life of the car so hopefully they won't argue about who is responsible too long, get them fixed and back on the road soon.
 

amtrakpass

Service Attendant
Joined
Jan 21, 2016
Messages
199
Trains Magazine article with details on the Siemens Venture issues and other reasons for the Amtrak equipment shortage.
Should be free to view if you haven't already read many other articles from them this month.

 
Joined
Aug 27, 2002
Messages
6,474
Location
Chicago
I read the article and a suggested temporary solution is to attach brackets to the tables to ensure the magnets do not affect electronic devices. Of course, since they do not have enough people to service the cars that are running, this simple process will be delayed and the cars will remain out of service. We are gradually moving into the status as a second-world country IMHO.
 

daybeers

Conductor
Joined
Jan 6, 2016
Messages
1,603
Location
NHV
think story is hogwash , todays electronics have little trouble with magnets , at one time maybe when tapes were used. even todays Hard drives have magnets so powerful they exceed those of speakers and fire door magnets .
I have two I just removed from a Seagate that are so powerful it takes tools to pull them apart.
I agree that it's hogwash. The article above talks about devices "turning off" but not getting damaged. My guess is the magnets only affected tablets and other devices that might rely on magnetic cases to turn off the screen and keep the case closed.
 

jis

Chief Dispatcher
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
Gathering Team Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2003
Messages
32,734
Location
Space Coast, Florida, Area code 3-2-1
Considering that at least the new ones use magnets to keep the wireless charger attached to the device..... it seems to me that there is a part missing in the story. Clearly there is something that needs fixing, but I am having difficulty believing what has been said about what needs fixing. Possibly lost in translation on the way.
 

DSS&A

Lead Service Attendant
Joined
Aug 21, 2015
Messages
414
The fact that we're seeing a new car out on the Hiawatha for crew training would indicate that the Hiawatha should have the Venture cars on it soon.

peter
FYI, During the last two weeks of March, I didn't see any Siemens cars on the morning northbound Hiawatha train.
 

StanJazz

Service Attendant
Joined
Sep 4, 2009
Messages
216
Location
CHI
The Nippon-Sharyo building is still there. While coming home from California after seeing the Cubs beat the Padres, I saw the old building. It was the 1st time in decades that I came home from California via something that was not Amtrak. It is the white building just to the lower left of the I-59 and I-88 interchange. DSC_0507e.jpg
 

PerRock

Conductor
Joined
Sep 16, 2006
Messages
1,978
Location
Ann Arbor, MI
I hope to travel on them this weekend. Booked on the 350/355 trains to go to Chicago. I'll try to remember to post a post-trip report on the new cars.

peter
 

jis

Chief Dispatcher
Staff member
Administator
Moderator
Gathering Team Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2003
Messages
32,734
Location
Space Coast, Florida, Area code 3-2-1
MODERATOR'S NOTE: A number of posts about the new Chicago to Kansas City service via St. Louis have been moved to their own thread at:


Please post any further messages on that subject to this new thread and reserve this thread for discussing the new Midwest and California Siemens rolling stock.

Thank you for your understanding, cooperation and participation.
 
Last edited:
Top