Texas Eagle to Begin Using TRE Route FTW-DAL!!

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Again, if it were a single train transfer in Dallas, it'd be a slightly better scenario, but with two transfers before you even reach skylink, it's a burden.

I agree with you afigg about the purpose of LD trains. But connectivity to airports is paramount for an efficient total transportation solution. Case in point - I think it's sorta silly to run a train from downtown Miami to Orlando International Airport. First of all, the rates and destinations are probably more agreeable to most passengers out of MIA as opposed to MCO. The majority of passengers from MIA would probably prefer to arrive in a part of Orlando served by public transportation - like a connection to Sunrail at the least, rather than end up at the airport with expensive connections (will most "day visitors" rent a car?).

I'm not saying that folks are going to take the Texas Eagle from Chicago or LA or even El Paso or San Antonio to Centreport to get to DFW. But it's not out of line to make as efficient as possible transfer for folks coming in from Longview/Marshall or McGregor and Cleburne. As I said before, the extra hours from DAL to the terminals may not be that much different, but it would sure be a time savings from the West.
I agree that connectivity is a great goal! In theory, there is now connectivity from DAL, using the Orange line. Agreed could be a PITA for those with many bags, but if you have many bags, Centerport would be a huge PITA also, as there is no checked bag service ao the rail line (TRE), or the shuttle buses either! Six of one, half dozen of the other.............

Now, I absolutely agree that a traveler with only carry on bags would be quicker/easier with a Centerport stop on Amtrak.
 
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Acadia Valley, MO is in the works to be added as a stop to the Texas Eagle, sometime in late 2015. It is shown on the schedule as a future stop. As for adding a stop on the TRE, the signed agreement and lack of Sunday service to keep the station open, likely puts off adding a station stop for some years.
Frankly, I don't understand why the agreement would disallow Amtrak to add a stop there. It can't be competition - perhaps up to $125 per day in lost revenue? I guess that can add up. And that's if 50 people use it per day between the two trains.
If it was about competition, I guess the DART Orange Line is doing more damage than Amtrak ever could.
 
Just as a data point, none of the LD trains stop at BWI or EWR, either. If you want to head to the airport, you're going to have to change to a regional (or MARC/NJT) to make that happen.
I appreciate those data points, but they can be accessed with a same station, single transfer to a regional. I think lack of decent rail access to JFK is the real travesty. That's a whole new thread, though. :D

I agree that connectivity is a great goal! In theory, there is now connectivity from DAL, using the Orange line. Agreed could be a PITA for those with many bags, but if you have many bags, Centerport would be a huge PITA also, as there is no checked bag service ao the rail line (TRE), or the shuttle buses either! Six of one, half dozen of the other.............

Now, I absolutely agree that a traveler with only carry on bags would be quicker/easier with a Centerport stop on Amtrak.
Remember, the Orange Line doesn't stop at Dallas Union Station - only at the West End, which is a mere 1/2 mile or so away. So it's arrive DAL receive bags from checked luggage or you haul them off the train yourself because you started somewhere with no checked luggage, wait for Blue or Red line. Load bags and family. Ride one stop. Unload bags and family. Wait for train. First one is yellow line. Next one is yellow line. Third one is yellow line. Then you realize that all the DART trains are yellow and you have to look at the signs (OK - just being a bit silly, here, but I lived near Dallas, and I saw this happen when there was just the Red and Blue lines. IE: Where does this YELLOW train go?). Finally you see the Orange Header that says DFW and you load your bags and family and enjoy the next 50 minutes of Urban Dallas, Las Colinas (IRVING - sorry, sore subject), then you get off at the airport, unload your bags and family and proceed to a shuttle that will take you to that obscure gate that Aeroflot uses over in Terminal D. Or, you go through security and ride Skylink, but you can't check your bags until you get to the right terminal.

Now, if you're a sole traveller with no checked bags, that'd be totally cool. I'm in for that.

But alas, I'm in Georgia now and so I'm going to go back to complaining about not having the Nancy Hanks III and the horrible connection to the city from the Charlotte, NC station.

Phew.
 
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Actually, TexRail is going to stop pretty much exactly as close to terminal B as DART is to terminal A. The plans are quite clear; it's perfectly symmetrical to DART. Where DART is between the east service road and the east lanes of the expressway, TexRail will be between the west service road and the west lanes of the expressway.

Looking at it, it doesn't seem that there's any decent mass transportation option for those heading to the airport with checked luggage. The Centreport bus also sucks if you have checked luggage.
 
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While it is true that none of the LD trains stop at BWI, they all stop at Alexandria (a whopping 15 minutes from WAS) and Newark. At a bare minimum an experimental stop for a year or two would seem to be worth Amtrak's consideration. It might also be worth doing this and blocking out Dallas/Fort Worth-Centerport tickets (unless connecting from the Heartland Flyer).
 
I am sympathetic with the argument for stopping to serve the suburban populations in Arlington etc., but I would point out that typically stations on Amtrak's long-distance routes are an hour apart from each other, and rarely closer together than half an hour. The timing between Dallas and Fort Worth does not really allow for another stop.
 
I'm not saying that folks are going to take the Texas Eagle from Chicago or LA or even El Paso or San Antonio to Centreport to get to DFW. But it's not out of line to make as efficient as possible transfer for folks coming in from Longview/Marshall or McGregor and Cleburne. As I said before, the extra hours from DAL to the terminals may not be that much different, but it would sure be a time savings from the West.
A fundamental problem with taking an LD train to get a flight at the airport is the lack of on-time reliability. Just a fact of life when the TE is covering 981 miles from CHI to DAL before it even gets to the TRE.

Ok, so you are in Longview TX and you want to take the TE #21 to DFW airport. But #21 may be 3 hours late. If you have a non-refundable reservation or one a with a hefty change, do you book a flight 6 hours after the TE gets to the Dallas or Centrepoint stop to give a big enough buffer? If the TE is on-time, is the plan to sit around the airport an extra 4 hours? How many people are going to do this? Not many or at least very few more than once. LD trains are not for someone trying to make anything close to a tight connection. To take an Amtrak train from Longview to flights at DFW airport, really need a multiple daily frequency corridor service such as FW-Dallas to Shreveport.

Here are the departure times of #21 for the last 10 days in the Status map archives database. Yes, there were some bad delays for the TE recently, but still, take this train to take a scheduled flight departure time?

Code:
History for Amtrak 21 at DAL
Origin Date Sch DP Act DP Comments Service Disruption Cancellations
01/11/2015 01/12/2015 11:50 AM 12:43PM Departed: 53 minutes late.
01/10/2015 01/11/2015 11:50 AM 2:13PM Departed: 2 hours, 23 minutes late.
01/09/2015 01/10/2015 11:50 AM 6:24PM Departed: 6 hours, 34 minutes late. SD
01/08/2015 01/09/2015 11:50 AM 2:28PM Departed: 2 hours, 38 minutes late.
01/07/2015 01/08/2015 11:50 AM 10:25PM Departed: 10 hours, 35 minutes late. SD
01/06/2015 01/07/2015 11:50 AM 11:50AM Departed: On time.
01/05/2015 01/06/2015 11:50 AM 2:00PM Departed: 2 hours, 10 minutes late.
01/04/2015 01/05/2015 11:50 AM 2:48PM Departed: 2 hours, 58 minutes late.
01/03/2015 01/04/2015 11:50 AM 11:50AM Departed: On time.
01/02/2015 01/03/2015 11:50 AM 1:30PM Departed: 1 hour, 40 minutes late.
Average DP delay for 10 records found: 2 hours and 59 minutes late
 
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The Centreport bus also sucks if you have checked luggage.
THIS, because you cannot get checked bags off Amtrak, unless they put in a station, which is not going to happen.
I think Neroden meant checked luggage on the airline. Seeing airlne carry on restrictions are much stricter than train ones, more people are likely to need to check air luggage than train luggage.
 
Actually, TexRail is going to stop pretty much exactly as close to terminal B as DART is to terminal A. The plans are quite clear; it's perfectly symmetrical to DART. Where DART is between the east service road and the east lanes of the expressway, TexRail will be between the west service road and the west lanes of the expressway.

Looking at it, it doesn't seem that there's any decent mass transportation option for those heading to the airport with checked luggage. The Centreport bus also sucks if you have checked luggage.
Looking at Google maps, it looks as if there is space alongside the service road to extend the Orange Line to the other terminals. The trains could then also serve as a landside transfer between terminals if the airport could pick up part of the costs to be able to offer that segment of the service for free.

Many other airport rail services have separate stations for different terminals if they are not walking distance.
 
Actually, TexRail is going to stop pretty much exactly as close to terminal B as DART is to terminal A. The plans are quite clear; it's perfectly symmetrical to DART. Where DART is between the east service road and the east lanes of the expressway, TexRail will be between the west service road and the west lanes of the expressway.
You are right. I stand corrected. I was looking at the DFW-North station - a stupid stop designed ONLY to carry employees from their parking lot. That makes for an expensive shuttle.

I am sympathetic with the argument for stopping to serve the suburban populations in Arlington etc., but I would point out that typically stations on Amtrak's long-distance routes are an hour apart from each other, and rarely closer together than half an hour. The timing between Dallas and Fort Worth does not really allow for another stop.
Though that is the general practice, there are enough exceptions to make that point BS.

The Centreport bus also sucks if you have checked luggage.
THIS, because you cannot get checked bags off Amtrak, unless they put in a station, which is not going to happen.
We're going around in circles here. I addressed the checked luggage issue and that Amtrak should consider full services here. Plenty of important stops don't offer checked baggage service.

A fundamental problem with taking an LD train to get a flight at the airport is the lack of on-time reliability. Just a fact of life when the TE is covering 981 miles from CHI to DAL before it even gets to the TRE.
That's something that has to be worked out with the Freights and Amtrak. This may not be anything more than anecdotal, but it seems to be that whenever Amtrak and a commuter line co-exist, the ontime performance seems to improve. IE: When NM Railrunner entered service in ABQ and Sunrail in Florida, I would expect performance improvements along the TRE. This is because when Amtrak co-exists with a commuter line that owns their ROW, THEY get priority over Amtrak. I know it's not perfect on the SWC or the Silvers, and I wouldn't expect it to be perfect on the TE. But with some rational expectations, time wasting can be reasonably mitigated.

I think Neroden meant checked luggage on the airline. Seeing airlne carry on restrictions are much stricter than train ones, more people are likely to need to check air luggage than train luggage.
Neroden and Tony meant checked Amtrak luggage, but you're right. Not everyone boards or disembarks at a station that checks bags.
 
Actually, TexRail is going to stop pretty much exactly as close to terminal B as DART is to terminal A. The plans are quite clear; it's perfectly symmetrical to DART. Where DART is between the east service road and the east lanes of the expressway, TexRail will be between the west service road and the west lanes of the expressway.

Looking at it, it doesn't seem that there's any decent mass transportation option for those heading to the airport with checked luggage. The Centreport bus also sucks if you have checked luggage.
Looking at Google maps, it looks as if there is space alongside the service road to extend the Orange Line to the other terminals. The trains could then also serve as a landside transfer between terminals if the airport could pick up part of the costs to be able to offer that segment of the service for free.

Many other airport rail services have separate stations for different terminals if they are not walking distance.
There is Skylink in the airport now, after TSA, and Terminal Link buses there already. Dart will not extend rail to each terminal. There is no political will here for that at all.
 
I am sympathetic with the argument for stopping to serve the suburban populations in Arlington etc., but I would point out that typically stations on Amtrak's long-distance routes are an hour apart from each other, and rarely closer together than half an hour. The timing between Dallas and Fort Worth does not really allow for another stop.
I agree with Venture, there are multiple cases in major metropolitan areas where Long a Distance trains stop at suburban stops. A few examples that come to mind: Southwest Chief with Fullerton, Riverside, and San Bernadino. Cal Zephyr with Richmond and Martinez. Silver Service with Hollywood, Deerfield Beach, and Delray Beach. Eagle at Joliet. Sunset at Pomona and Ontario. Lake Shore at Croton. Empire Builder at Edmonds and Everett. The list goes on and on.
Making stops at the suburbs of these major cities not only attracts additional ridership because you don't have to go as far out of your way to get to the station, but you help ease some of the burden at the larger stops. Adding a stop like Irving or Centreport would add maybe 3-4 minutes to the schedule, but if that adds ridership that's significant like it is at the suburban stops of other services, it'd be foolish to not do it. When you're in an urban area you should be stopping more often because there's more people to serve. When you're in rural America you stop in significant towns to serve those communities and those nearby.
 
I ride the Texas Eagle. I also fly to/from/through SAT, AUS, DFW, MDW, and ORD. I would seem to be a prime candidate for Texas Eagle service to any number of major airports. But there is no way I'd waste my time and effort with such a trip. Mainly because here in the US the logistical expectations and relative schedule keeping between railroads and airlines are so drastically different. Amtrak LD trains can generally get you to your destination within a few hours of the schedule. Even Amtrak trains which are recorded as being "on time" are often one or more hours late when arriving at intermediate destinations.

Meanwhile commercial aircraft generally depart within a few minutes of their schedule. There is simply no way to make these two services work together without some sort of formally guaranteed connection and I see no reason why any airline would put themselves in a position where they are forced to clean up after Amtrak. Taking an Amtrak LD train to catch a flight is basically a non-starter for me and I would imagine this would be true for most folks who are aware of the potential pitfalls.

That being said, I would absolutely support more stops in major cities for easier use of Amtrak LD services. San Antonio suffers from the same mindless sprawl that most American cities have experienced and is an extended stop for both the Texas Eagle and the Sunset Limited. It would seem that some of our extended dwell time could be used for serving the North East and South West areas of town in addition to the downtown station. Even a stop in New Branfels would work better for me than downtown San Antonio. All you would need is a platform and a parking lot. Unfortunately the ADA has apparently mandated that even flag stops require a million dollar up-front expense, and I don't see how that would ever be funded, but nonetheless I would welcome it.
 
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I ride the Texas Eagle. I also fly to/from/through SAT, AUS, DFW, MDW, and ORD. I would seem to be a prime candidate for Texas Eagle service to any number of major airports. But there is no way I'd waste my time and effort with such a trip. Mainly because here in the US the logistical expectations and relative schedule keeping between railroads and airlines are so drastically different. Amtrak LD trains can generally get you to your destination within a few hours of the schedule. Even Amtrak trains which are recorded as being "on time" are often one or more hours late when arriving at intermediate destinations.

Meanwhile commercial aircraft generally depart within a few minutes of their schedule. There is simply no way to make these two services work together without some sort of formally guaranteed connection and I see no reason why any airline would put themselves in a position where they are forced to clean up after Amtrak. Taking an Amtrak LD train to catch a flight is basically a non-starter for me and I would imagine this would be true for most folks who are aware of the potential pitfalls.

That being said, I would absolutely support more stops in major cities for easier use of Amtrak LD services. San Antonio suffers from the same mindless sprawl that most American cities have experienced and is an extended stop for both the Texas Eagle and the Sunset Limited. It would seem that some of our extended dwell time could be used for serving the North East and South West areas of town in addition to the downtown station. Even a stop in New Branfels would work better for me than downtown San Antonio. All you would need is a platform and a parking lot. Unfortunately the ADA has apparently mandated that even flag stops require a million dollar up-front expense, and I don't see how that would ever be funded, but nonetheless I would welcome it.
I agree!

The problems with trying to do this on the TRE though is that unlike freight rail, the TRE will not give priority to Amtrak, (as if freights do ;) ) and the TRE will take priority if the Eagle is late going either direction. It takes the TRE 53 minutes to go from FTW to DAL.

Also, since the TRE is jointly owned by DART and the T, with 9 cities and the North Texas Council of Governments as partners, it will be difficult, at this time, to clear the liability hurdle to allow Amtrak to use any of the stations along the route. There is just not the political will there right now, might materialize in the future, though.

Then there is the parking dilemma. By contract, the TRE lots are "No Overnight Parking Allowed" and cars are towed after the latest departure/arrival each night. So Amtrak riders would need a lift to and from these stations. To change this would require a vote of all of the partner cities, the DART board and the board of the T, which would be difficult, if not impossible.

And there is still the baggage issue. I agree that having baggage handling at Centerport would alleviate this issue, but that would require Amtrak building and operating a station there, which is quite expensive. Dallas and some of the cities in DART might agree to help with some of the upfront costs for this, but in the current political climate, I assure you that Hurst, Richland Hills and Ft. Worth would not. Not sure about Irving, could go either way, as a former DART board member is now on their city council.

There is talk of connecting the TRE to Arlington/Grand Prairie by rail, it is currently connected with the MAX bus service (funded by City of Arlington, Arlington Chamber and UTA), but that rail service is waaaayyyy out in the future.

(Interesting tidbit: Overnight parking IS allowed at the UTA location on the MAX, so you can go from Arlington to DFW, by way of Centerport, to fly out and reverse the process coming home, all on a bus).
 
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Good post Chris! New Braunfels has 2 old Rail Stations ( one a Rail Museum), the old M-K-T ( Katy) and the old MOPAC

station that the Eagle passes on the way to SAS!

San Antonio also has the Grand old IG& N Station ( now a Credit Union) that the Eagle passes by on the long circular route around downtown to the Sunset Station.

As you know the Eagle also passes right beside the SA International Airport on the way into town from the NE!

But with the current Mayor being opposed to street cars and light rail, ( will y'all really elect her after she was appointed when Castro left for Washington, while promising not to run for the office?) I doubt if she'd be in favor of spending money on an airport stop!

San Marcos and Taylor are both stops for the Texas Eagle, both basically suburban Austin Stations, so as you say, this idea should work for lots of Metropolitan areas!

While we all support ADA, the requirements to spend so much money on platforms for flagstop or rural stations is idiotic!!!!
 
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Interesting topic, like lots of things guess we'll just have to agree to disagree without being disagreeable!

( the way it used to be in Washington before the take no prisoners era began!)
 
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Good post Chris! New Braunfels has 2 old Rail Stations ( one a Rail Museum), the old M-K-T ( Katy) and the old MOPAC

station that the Eagle passes on the way to SAS!

San Antonio also has the Grand old IG& N Station ( now a Credit Union) that the Eagle passes by on the long circular route around downtown to the Sunset Station.

As you know the Eagle also passes right beside the SA International Airport on the way into town from the NE!

But with the current Mayor being opposed to street cars and light rail, ( will y'all really elect her after she was appointed when Castro left for Washington, while promising not to run for the office?) I doubt if she'd be in favor of spending money on an airport stop!

San Marcos and Taylor are both stops for the Texas Eagle, both basically suburban Austin Stations, so as you say, this idea should work for lots of Metropolitan areas!

While we all support ADA, the requirements to spend so much money on platforms for flagstop or rural stations is idiotic!!!!
I believe Letitia Van de Putte will be San Antonio's next mayor.
 
I understand and appreciate all of your comments. Perhaps we will close this just agreeing to disagree.

I'm confused, however, at the following statement:

Then there is the parking dilemma. By contract, the TRE lots are "No Overnight Parking Allowed" and cars are towed after the latest departure/arrival each night. So Amtrak riders would need a lift to and from these stations. To change this would require a vote of all of the partner cities, the DART board and the board of the T, which would be difficult, if not impossible.
This sounds like a problem for TRE riders today that go to Centreport to transfer to DFW, not Amtrak riders who would get on and off at stations way outside of the TRE Zone like the five cities I've already mentioned. So far as I know, each of those offer free parking.
 
I understand and appreciate all of your comments. Perhaps we will close this just agreeing to disagree.

I'm confused, however, at the following statement:

Then there is the parking dilemma. By contract, the TRE lots are "No Overnight Parking Allowed" and cars are towed after the latest departure/arrival each night. So Amtrak riders would need a lift to and from these stations. To change this would require a vote of all of the partner cities, the DART board and the board of the T, which would be difficult, if not impossible.
This sounds like a problem for TRE riders today that go to Centreport to transfer to DFW, not Amtrak riders who would get on and off at stations way outside of the TRE Zone like the five cities I've already mentioned. So far as I know, each of those offer free parking.
Correct! For those coming from Cleburne, Minneola, etc. But how would you keep people from wanting to board at Centerport?

I agree that it would be great to have Amtrak stop there, just disagree that the logistics would be as easy as you claim. It is a major hassle as is with luggage going from TRE to DFW on the bus. And if the Eagle were to be on time, pax would have to wait for the next TRE scheduled arrival to catch that bus. They could not schedule one to meet Amtrak with the Eagle's hit and miss arrival times.

However, with what I mentioned earlier, it is simply not going to happen anytime soon. And by soon, I mean 10 to 20 years, if ever. No political will for it to happen.
 
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I understand and appreciate all of your comments. Perhaps we will close this just agreeing to disagree.

I'm confused, however, at the following statement:

Then there is the parking dilemma. By contract, the TRE lots are "No Overnight Parking Allowed" and cars are towed after the latest departure/arrival each night. So Amtrak riders would need a lift to and from these stations. To change this would require a vote of all of the partner cities, the DART board and the board of the T, which would be difficult, if not impossible.
This sounds like a problem for TRE riders today that go to Centreport to transfer to DFW, not Amtrak riders who would get on and off at stations way outside of the TRE Zone like the five cities I've already mentioned. So far as I know, each of those offer free parking.
Correct! For those coming from Cleburne, Minneola, etc. But how would you keep people from wanting to board at Centerport?
I agree that it would be great to have Amtrak stop there, just disagree that the logistics would be as easy as you claim. It is a major hassle as is with luggage going from TRE to DFW on the bus. And if the Eagle were to be on time, pax would have to wait for the next TRE scheduled arrival to catch that bus. They could not schedule one to meet Amtrak with the Eagle's hit and miss arrival times.

However, with what I mentioned earlier, it is simply not going to happen anytime soon. And by soon, I mean 10 to 20 years, if ever. No political will for it to happen.
To your first point, almost nobody lives near Centreport. They are a few apartments, but most within walking distance. I don't see that as an issue, but one that could be mitigated with a full up Amtrak station installed if the demand existed. But there is no free parking at Fort Worth or Dallas, either.
I agree with just about everything you are saying about political will, but it's ok to have the discussion. This forum ain't going to change nuthin'. But if there are a couple of boots on the ground that feel the same way I do, maybe it won't take 20 years. After all, it did take nearly 20 years just to get Amtrak moved from the UP to the old Rock Island.
 
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