"The Dining Car Problem"

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Cite something that analyzes the flaws in the report if you yourself wish to remain credible.
There is at least one thread where it was hashed out extensively (unless I am confusing this with another site), and I am not going to get sucked down that rabbit hole. It is off-topic for this thread.

Same with criticizing the RPA (at least about being off-topic).
 
Okay, you are in that crowd that refuses cite anything because I should "do my own research" or "don't want to get sucked down a rabbit hole" as an excuse for trying to get away with groundless claims when challenged.

Talk about
Many people are saying it . . .

Boy, you sure walked into that one.
 
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I just don't buy the conspiracy theories, plus I have real world experience working for a railroad (and for other transportation companies), so I know there is often a logical explanation for Why Things Are The Way They Are that a lot of, um, "railfans" just aren't aware of, and that actually operating a railroad is way more complicated than a lot of people think.

As do I. Since you want to keep this on topic so much - how would you operate the dining Cars on long distance trains?
 
Okay, you are in that crowd that refuses cite anything because I should "do my own research"
Sorry, are you "quoting" me? Because I didn't say that.

In fact, I purposefully did NOT say that. I know many people here are going to believe what they want to believe, facts be damned, and their minds are made up. At most their "research" will be to re-blog a self-serving report from a self-serving organization that has no accountability outside of its own echo chamber. I'm not going to waste my time trying to convince them otherwise. That is what I meant by rabbit hole.
 
No, but you did say you did not want to go down a rabbit hole and the crowd I was referring to (generally on Quora) uses both excuses as reasons not to cite sources when challenged. Wasting one's own time is another of the excuses that crowd uses, too, BTW. Meanwhile you are, in fact, wasting your time here by making apparently groundless claims. Time that might be better used to better argue your position by finding your sources.

Who knows, if you actually had some sources to cite that we could read and consider, you just might be able to change some minds. Mere assertions will not accomplish that, so you are, indeed, wasting your time.
 
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As do I. Since you want to keep this on topic so much - how would you operate the dining Cars on long distance trains?
Since it is impossible to do so profitably, it would depend on now much in the way of dining car losses the corporation as a whole can tolerate. (EDITED TO ADD: Or what Congress mandates.)

If huge losses can be tolerated, probably something similar to what is characterized here as "traditional dining car service" that existed back in the 1990s with fresh on-board preparation and real crockery.

If the goal is to minimize financial losses, probably something like this:

For sleeping car passengers, complimentary pre-plated "tray meal service" that was on certain lower-volume single-night trains like the Montrealer and the Cardinal in the 80s/90s (hot main course heated in an oven and everything served on one tray) or the Empire Builder Portland section box cold meal service, served in a table section of a lounge / dining car. Include complimentary wine / beer at lunch and dinner if you could do something about employee theft.

For coach passengers, an enhanced cafe / snack car. The hot tray / cold box meals described above could be sold as take-away to coach passengers to eat at their seats or in the lounge.
 
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No, but you did say you did not want to go down a rabbit hole and the crowd I was referring to (generally on Quora) uses both excuses as reasons not to cite sources when challenged. Wasting one's own time is another of the excuses that crowd uses, too, BTW.
Sorry I am not at all familiar with Quora. I have heard of it but can't say I have ever been there (though maybe I did click through something on it once or twice during a mindless random internet session when I had time to kill, but if I did it wasn't memorable) and I certainly haven't posted there.
 
Since it is impossible to do so profitably, it would depend on now much in the way of dining car losses the corporation as a whole can tolerate.

Why is it impossible? At some point sleeping car prices would cover the cost of the car and staff.
 
Sorry I am not at all familiar with Quora. I have heard of it but can't say I have ever been there (though maybe I did click through something on it once or twice during a mindless random internet session when I had time to kill, but if I did it wasn't memorable) and I certainly haven't posted there.
Never said you did, just that the pattern of argument (or lack thereof) you use matches closely to posters of a certain mentality there who make assertions and then refuse to cite sources or references using excuses similar to yours. That approach isn't limited to Quora, or here, or the web itself, but is as old as mankind. I've just seen it with a lot of frequency on Quora throughout 2020 and 2021.
 
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Why is it impossible? At some point sleeping car prices would cover the cost of the car and staff.
Sure, if the main point of sleeping car revenue is to cover dining car losses. (And you seem to be assuming sleeping car fares have an unlimited ceiling.)

But there are lots of other costs to running a railroad to that fares are supposed to cover. Which they already don't.

This is one of the things that amuses me about this site. If you go by the number of words posted about various topics, there is a disproportionate number of words posted about dining car food and service compared to everything else, as if that were THE MOST IMPORTANT THING about operating a train safely from Chicago to the West Coast. But, believe it or not, there are a LOT of other things that go into running passenger trains (outside of some high-end luxury or "dinner trains").

This may come a shock, but the dining car menu selection is only a very small part of a much larger universe.
 
Never said you did, just that the pattern of argument (or lack thereof) you use matches closely to posters of a certain mentality there who make assertions and then refuse to cite sources or references using excuses similar to yours.
Hmm, maybe I'll have to check it out! :)
 
Sure, if the main point of sleeping car revenue is to cover dining car losses. (And you seem to be assuming sleeping car fares have an unlimited ceiling.)

But there are lots of other costs to running a railroad to that fares are supposed to cover. Which they already don't.

This is one of the things that amuses me about this site. If you go by the number of words posted about various topics, there is a disproportionate number of words posted about dining car food and service compared to everything else, as if that were THE MOST IMPORTANT THING about operating a train safely from Chicago to the West Coast. But, believe it or not, there are a LOT of other things that go into running passenger trains (outside of some high-end luxury or "dinner trains").

This may come a shock, but the dining car menu selection is only a very small part of a much larger universe.

Are you capable of having a discussion without talking down to someone?

This is a thread about dining cars. Anyone with basic intelligence would expect dining cars to be the main topic of discussion. (See... doesn’t feel to good does it?)
 
what is characterized here as "traditional dining car service" that existed back in the 1990s with fresh on-board preparation and real crockery.

What most people mean by “traditional dining car service” existed up until October of 2019 on all LD trains except for city, Star, and cardinal.

If you want to throw in the real China and glassware that was still around on some trains in 2016 but was being phased out by then. (I know it was on at least the Starlight that year... maybe the builder too).
 
Well, in the political threads you will have lots of company in your inability to marshal convincing arguments with appropriate references to support them.
See my Post # 80. I am not here to convince anyone about anything. I know there is a certain dogma here about dining cars, the supposed sabotage of the LD network, and the competency of Amtrak management that I cannot - and have no wish to try to - change. I am here solely for my own bemusement.

OTOH it might surprise you to know that I agree with some of the orthodoxy here. Like WHY do crew take over half the lounge / dining car table areas? UNACCEPTABLE. And the rudeness of some crew and the inconsistency of OBS in general. And that Flexible Dining is kinda tacky. And that Amtrak should DO SOMETHING about host railroad dispatching. But, I also know why those problems are so difficult to solve. The answer is not just "get new senior management." That isn't the problem. But enough off-topic-ness.
 
Yeah, china and flatware were still on the Builder in 2016..

The Lakeshore had lost it's traditional dining service before 2019, they withdrew the diner due to shortage of serviceable Heritage diners and replaced it with a cafe car that served food similar to the Cardinal's. It was supposed to get its full service diner back with the VIewliners, but "Contemporary" (soon to be "Flexible") dining was rolled out instead.
 
What most people mean by “traditional dining car service” existed up until October of 2019 on all LD trains except for city, Star, and cardinal.
OK. I was using the 1990s - maybe into the 2000s - as an example because I thought I had seen posts where that era was held up as the standard of How Things Ought To Be, on a consistent system-wide basis, coast-to-coast. (And when did they stop sending Chefs to Culinary Institute of America training? I thought that was long before 2019, but I could be wrong.) Plus I was not considering the Cross Country Cafe concept to be "traditional dining."
 
OK. I was using the 1990s - maybe into the 2000s - as an example because I thought I had seen posts where that era was held up as the standard of How Things Ought To Be, on a consistent system-wide basis, coast-to-coast. (And when did they stop sending Chefs to Culinary Institute of America training? I thought that was long before 2019, but I could be wrong.) Plus I was not considering the Cross Country Cafe concept to be "traditional dining."

The cross country cafe had a chef preparing food in a kitchen. It was used as an actual ccc car all of 6 months before being used as a traditional dining car anyways. If you’re going to use that logic we can’t count the 1990’s because of the lounge / diner hi-level Cars used on the Eagle.

What point are you actually trying to make? What do you call traditional dining since you’re the expert now.
 
What point are you actually trying to make? What do you call traditional dining since you’re the expert now.
I don't really care. You tell me what the definition should be and I'll be happy to go with that. I didn't realize it was such a technical and sensitive topic. I am pretty sure I have seen posts on here to the effect that "dining car service has been going downhill for 20-30 years" so I picked the 1990s as a general reference / comparison point since that was, you know, about 20-30 years ago. 🤷‍♂️ But NOT GOOD ENOUGH, apparently. (I don't see a "wag finger" emoji or I would put it here.)

But I guess the point that YOU are actually trying to make is that I have upset the apple cart here so the defense force has been alerted. Message received.

That and the "since you're the expert now" comment are kind of ironic for someone who just scolded me with, "Are you capable of having a discussion without talking down to someone?"

🤣
 
See my Post # 80. I am not here to convince anyone about anything. I know there is a certain dogma here about dining cars, the supposed sabotage of the LD network, and the competency of Amtrak management that I cannot - and have no wish to try to - change. I am here solely for my own bemusement.

OTOH it might surprise you to know that I agree with some of the orthodoxy here. Like WHY do crew take over half the lounge / dining car table areas? UNACCEPTABLE. And the rudeness of some crew and the inconsistency of OBS in general. And that Flexible Dining is kinda tacky. And that Amtrak should DO SOMETHING about host railroad dispatching. But, I also know why those problems are so difficult to solve. The answer is not just "get new senior management." That isn't the problem. But enough off-topic-ness.
They why did you try to keep up your end of the debate?

Glad we agree on many things. Inconsistent onboard service is Amtrak's worst problem that is wholly within Amtrak's control and it has been for decades. I don't blame the unions for this, many companies are unionized and their management still manages to have a reasonable employee discipline regimen. The STB and FRA just issued the metrics they will measure passenger train delay in December and hopefully it will finally give Amtrak access to relief from regulatory agencies that it has lacked to enforce the statutory priority it has had since it started in 1971.

As far as on topic goes, as I mentioned in another post, I certainly neither expect nor want a return to a Super Chief/20th Century Limited style of fine dining. On the very remote chance they ever tried it, I think it would backfire spectacularly politically. I do expect a casual dining level of food on the long distance trains, however. I don't care about the preparation method so much, even under the last iteration of traditional dining most of the food was NOT freshly prepared onboard, the steaks and egg dishes were the exception and were the only dishes cooked to order, IIRC. Pretty much everything else was prepared beforehand and heated up. I heard they used the sous vide method on some things, but I don't know (and don't have a source).

Dining cars were never expected to make a profit back in the RR days and they didn't. They were originally a form of marketing, and brand differentiation and loyalty to the target demographic of business travelers. The railroads had budget options for travelers who wanted them, such as the early bird dinners on the CZ, or buffet cars or lunch counter diners. While Pullman passengers were expected to be the bulk of dining car patrons, they generally did not restrict coach passenger access to the diners. For those railroads who aggressively tried to cut passenger losses, like SP, the diners were pretty much the first things to go since they just compounded any losses. Other railroads, like Santa Fe and UP, largely kept them on major trains and maintained high levels of service, primarily because of their perception it was still associated with their overall brand.

I don't need tablecloths, or even china. I don't need flowers on the table. I do think reasonable food service with healthy (and unhealthy) choices is necessary on journeys that sometimes can be more than 40 hours long. I've ridden Amtrak since its inception and do not expect some kind of resurrection of the name trains of the past. I do want something more than a reheated disposable pan of mixed up junk shoved in front of me.
 
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I am pretty sure I have seen posts on here to the effect that "dining car service has been going downhill for 20-30 years" so I picked the 1990s as a general reference / comparison point since that was, you know, about 20-30 years ago.

The “chef inspired” meals from like 2007-14/15 ish were quite good but other than those disappearing the food quality hasn’t changed much. I mean scrambled eggs are scrambled eggs.

I thought the point you were trying to make is we hadn’t had traditional dining since the 1990’s.
 
A lot of good the great dining on the VIA Ocean is doing with the train not running. I understand the point of it being mentioned here - as a dining model that we wish Amtrak would consider instead of dining flexibly (and the argument is probably valid it seems the Ocean took a pretty good approach) - but just wanted to point out the irony of praising VIA rail in comparison to Amtrak when the train has been totally discontinued with no restoration plan in sight....

I think dining improvements start with the presentation. Start with a decent presentation and plating the food. Even reheated pre-prepared food comes off a lot better when you take the time to least make it look like you care. Next develop consistency with how your staff is heating the meals. The same meal can be decent or slop if not reheated properly. Once you've got those two figured out then assess where you are - if that still doesn't cut it then look at your sourcing and see if better products are available.
Great point. I often hear VIA praised, as I have myself when I’ve ridden it, but it’s service is almost nonexistent across most of Canada. A once a week Canadian is slightly better than nothing.
 
Great point. I often hear VIA praised, as I have myself when I’ve ridden it, but it’s service is almost nonexistent across most of Canada. A once a week Canadian is slightly better than nothing.
Indeed, Amtrak has a vaguely viable national service that covers a significant part of the nation with daily service. VIA I don't think has a really viable and usable transportation service outside of the Ontario - Quebec Corridor. It has a few trains running occasionally here and there with great experiential stuff.
 
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