the flagship of amtrak?

[Bob Dylan]

I never rode Amtraks Super Chief after A Day but did get to experience the "Real" Santa Fe Super Chief in the 50s! Id say that the Starlight with the PPC is the Closest Thing to a Santa Fe Deluxe Train that Amtrak currently Runs but Not Super Chief Level of Food, Service and Time Keeping!!

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

What's the difference between a P32BWH and a B32-8W? I thought #509 was a P32BWH, so why is this one a B32-8W?

There is no difference. Amtrak calls it the "P32-8WH" GE calls it the "Dash 8-32BWH" or "B32-8WH" in line with the naming scheme for the rest of the Dash series of locomotives. Freight railroad fans are more likely to call it a "B32-8WH."

It translates to:

B (B type truck arrangement, 2 axles per truck)

32 (3200 horsepower)

-8 (locomotive model)

W (widecab)

H (head end power)

Thanks, that makes full sense. It's like those designation problems in the bus industry, where 102DL3 got renamed D4500 as the same bus, while Greyhound called it merely DL3. It's annoying for sure, but well, we train/bus foamers know about it and just deal with it.

I never rode Amtraks Super Chief after A Day but did get to experience the "Real" Santa Fe Super Chief in the 50s! Id say that the Starlight with the PPC is the Closest Thing to a Santa Fe Deluxe Train that Amtrak currently Runs but Not Super Chief Level of Food, Service and Time Keeping!!

Hey, maybe an Amtrak train running to the standard of service offered on the "Elite" trains pre-Amtrak might not do so bad. Sure, it might be hard to get subsides, but it would greatly increase reputation and maybe it would make a minimal loss. After all, Sleeper passengers account for more revenue shares compared to ridership.

 

[rrdude]

What's the difference between a P32BWH and a B32-8W? I thought #509 was a P32BWH, so why is this one a B32-8W?

There is no difference. Amtrak calls it the "P32-8WH" GE calls it the "Dash 8-32BWH" or "B32-8WH" in line with the naming scheme for the rest of the Dash series of locomotives. Freight railroad fans are more likely to call it a "B32-8WH."

It translates to: B (B type truck arrangement, 2 axles per truck)32 (3200 horsepower)-8 (locomotive model)W (widecab)H (head end power)

Thanks, that makes full sense. It's like those designation problems in the bus industry, where 102DL3 got renamed D4500 as the same bus, while Greyhound called it merely DL3. It's annoying for sure, but well, we train/bus foamers know about it and just deal with it.

I never rode Amtraks Super Chief after A Day but did get to experience the "Real" Santa Fe Super Chief in the 50s! Id say that the Starlight with the PPC is the Closest Thing to a Santa Fe Deluxe Train that Amtrak currently Runs but Not Super Chief Level of Food, Service and Time Keeping!!

Hey, maybe an Amtrak train running to the standard of service offered on the "Elite" trains pre-Amtrak might not do so bad. Sure, it might be hard to get subsides, but it would greatly increase reputation and maybe it would make a minimal loss. After all, Sleeper passengers account for more revenue shares compared to ridership.

And if Amtrak would just solicit "corporate sponsorship" for suggested "elite" train cars, (similar to PPC) then funding might be off the balance sheet.....alas,I have kicked this horse one too many times.....

 

[philabos]

But whether through being shamed or (probably more likely) through government regulatory action, the Sunset again had sleepers, a diner and a lounge, and checked baggage service, by spring 1971, just before Amtrak took over the route. Perhaps the SP added the services back in expectation of the Amtrak takeover. Perhaps someone on this forum knows the particulars of this story.

The SP simply could not be shamed with regard to passenger trains.

My memory may be a little rusty, but as I recall SP made the deal in order to change the SUNSET from a daily train to tri-weekly. I believe part of the attraction (for regulators) was an arrangement made with (probably by) Southern to operate a through sleeper from New York to Los Angeles. The SUNSET was not included in the original Railpax plan, so SP thought it would be out of the passenger business in 1971. Unfortunately for them, the route was added back in for the

May 1971 Amtrak inaugural.

 

[guest in the west]

But whether through being shamed or (probably more likely) through government regulatory action, the Sunset again had sleepers, a diner and a lounge, and checked baggage service, by spring 1971, just before Amtrak took over the route. Perhaps the SP added the services back in expectation of the Amtrak takeover. Perhaps someone on this forum knows the particulars of this story.

The SP simply could not be shamed with regard to passenger trains.

My memory may be a little rusty, but as I recall SP made the deal in order to change the SUNSET from a daily train to tri-weekly. I believe part of the attraction (for regulators) was an arrangement made with (probably by) Southern to operate a through sleeper from New York to Los Angeles. The SUNSET was not included in the original Railpax plan, so SP thought it would be out of the passenger business in 1971. Unfortunately for them, the route was added back in for the

May 1971 Amtrak inaugural.

From looking at the SP 1970 and 1971 schedules, that sounds right. IN 1970 the Sunset still ran daily but only with chair cars, no baggage service (except intrastate in Texas) and an "automat" food car. Sounds ghastly!

In 1971, it was back to sleepers and a diner, and a through sleeper between LA and NY (though the sleeper eastbound sat for 24 hours in the New Orleans train station with pax aboard, using it essentially as a hotel for one night, I guess). And the Sunset was three-times-a-week.

If the NIxon Administration"s Amtrak planners managed to fool SP into thinking that the Sunset would not be part of the original Amtrak network, then my estimation for Nixon has now gone up just a wee bit! Even Attila the Hun would rate a kudo for outfoxing the wretched SP!

 

[railiner]

Usually the ICC had nothing to say about the quality of on board services....that was not their regulatory responsibility. They determined mainly 'where and when', and fares.

However in the twilight of private railroad passenger services, some roads seeking to abandon trains, made a 'deal' with them to 'show good faith' in promoting a surviving train on a route. One example was the Sunset....the 'Friendly Southern Pacific' said if they could cut back to tri-weekly, they would improve on board services such as replacing the 'automat car' with a full service diner. Another example was the Norfolk and Western...if they could cut back to only one train on their Norfolk to Cincinnati main line, they would do all they could to improve it. The Pocahontas received the benefit of this attention, with N&W's best equipment, including a dome car, welcome aboard amenity kits, etc....

 

[fulham]

All the ex-SP's lines that had passenger service prior to Amtrak continue to have it today with the exception of the NW Pacific line north of CA and I believe the Del Monte which ran somewhere around the Bay area. Think about it, the SP did all they could to get rid of passenger service throughout the 60's, and right now the Overland Route still has a train, the Coast Daylight/Cascade route still has a train (several south of San Luis Obispo) the Sunset is still the same, and there is still San Joaquin service although not through to LA. I wonder what Donald Russell, who was President of the SP during the 50's and 60's would think about the rail revival in CA!

Compare the above scenario with the ex-SF and UP lines...2 "pro-passenger" roads. No more trains west of Omaha on the old UP, and if the SW Chief goes, the Santa Fe will only have the LA-San Diego line left.

 

[railiner]

All the ex-SP's lines that had passenger service prior to Amtrak continue to have it today with the exception of the NW Pacific line north of CA and I believe the Del Monte which ran somewhere around the Bay area. Think about it, the SP did all they could to get rid of passenger service throughout the 60's, and right now the Overland Route still has a train, the Coast Daylight/Cascade route still has a train (several south of San Luis Obispo) the Sunset is still the same, and there is still San Joaquin service although not through to LA. I wonder what Donald Russell, who was President of the SP during the 50's and 60's would think about the rail revival in CA!
Compare the above scenario with the ex-SF and UP lines...2 "pro-passenger" roads. No more trains west of Omaha on the old UP, and if the SW Chief goes, the Santa Fe will only have the LA-San Diego line left.

Interesting observation....although most of the San Joaquin route is over the former Santa Fe....

 

[NorthCoastHiawatha]

Compare the above scenario with the ex-SF and UP lines...2 "pro-passenger" roads. No more trains west of Omaha on the old UP, and if the SW Chief goes, the Santa Fe will only have the LA-San Diego line left.

The Southwest Chief will still travel over former Santa Fe rails though went rerouted though Amarillo, it will just be following the route of San Francisco Chief instead of the Super Chief.

 

[jis]

Compare the above scenario with the ex-SF and UP lines...2 "pro-passenger" roads. No more trains west of Omaha on the old UP, and if the SW Chief goes, the Santa Fe will only have the LA-San Diego line left.

The Southern Transcon of the Santa Fe is where the SWC will go if the change happens. So it will still be on Santa Fe rails.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

All the ex-SP's lines that had passenger service prior to Amtrak continue to have it today with the exception of the NW Pacific line north of CA and I believe the Del Monte which ran somewhere around the Bay area. Think about it, the SP did all they could to get rid of passenger service throughout the 60's, and right now the Overland Route still has a train, the Coast Daylight/Cascade route still has a train (several south of San Luis Obispo) the Sunset is still the same, and there is still San Joaquin service although not through to LA. I wonder what Donald Russell, who was President of the SP during the 50's and 60's would think about the rail revival in CA!
Compare the above scenario with the ex-SF and UP lines...2 "pro-passenger" roads. No more trains west of Omaha on the old UP, and if the SW Chief goes, the Santa Fe will only have the LA-San Diego line left.

The SP Overland does not totally have passenger service, the line was more northerly than the current CZ towards eastern Nevada and in Utah. The Overland Route did not go through SLC, it went through Great Sale Lake into Ogden.

The old UP main line really has no more passenger service, nor do most of the extensions to Portland and Los Angeles.

 

[zephyr17]

All the ex-SP's lines that had passenger service prior to Amtrak continue to have it today with the exception of the NW Pacific line north of CA and I believe the Del Monte which ran somewhere around the Bay area. Think about it, the SP did all they could to get rid of passenger service throughout the 60's, and right now the Overland Route still has a train, the Coast Daylight/Cascade route still has a train (several south of San Luis Obispo) the Sunset is still the same, and there is still San Joaquin service although not through to LA. I wonder what Donald Russell, who was President of the SP during the 50's and 60's would think about the rail revival in CA!
Compare the above scenario with the ex-SF and UP lines...2 "pro-passenger" roads. No more trains west of Omaha on the old UP, and if the SW Chief goes, the Santa Fe will only have the LA-San Diego line left.

SP lines that had passenger service on April 30, 1971 that do not have passenger service today:Monterey Branch (Watsonville-Monterey) - The Del Monte

SP Valley line (south of Stockton) - The San Joaquin Daylight. Note that Amtrak's San Joaquins take the ex-Santa Fe line.

SP Overland Route (Alazon, NV - Ogden, UT)- City of San Francisco. Note that Amtrak's California Zephyr uses the ex-WP into Salt Lake City from Alazon.

SP West Valley line (Davis, CA - Tehama, CA), Cascade

SP Phoenix Line (Wellton, AZ-Pichaco Jct, AZ(?)), Sunset

NWP Willits, CA - Eureka, CA, Redwood (RDC)

And yes DJR would be astounded that passenger service survived at all, let alone increased.

 

[jis]

Where is the train east of Omaha on the UP? The Zephyr runs on BNSF from Chicago to Denver. And the rest of the stuff that is on today's UP was not UP back in the days AFAICT, though i could be wrong.

 

[zephyr17]

At the time of Amtrak's inception, UP didn't go east of Omaha (well, Council Bluffs). The "City" streamliners were handled by Milwaukee Road east of there to Chicago. That stretch of Milwaukee Road doesn't even exist any more.

UP bought the C&NW in the 90s, which gave them direct access to Chicago (and passengers in the form of commuter trains).

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

At the time of Amtrak's inception, UP didn't go east of Omaha (well, Council Bluffs). The "City" streamliners were handled by Milwaukee Road east of there to Chicago. That stretch of Milwaukee Road doesn't even exist any more.
UP bought the C&NW in the 90s, which gave them direct access to Chicago (and passengers in the form of commuter trains).

That reminded me than many Metra routes are run by UP. Maybe they would consider making a longer line out of those, and operating intercity rail again!

 

[guest in the west]

Until 1955, The SF Overland, the City of San Francisco (SP trains), the City of Portland, the Portland Rose, the City of Los Angeles and the City of Denver (UP trains) and other trains earlier in the century all ran on Chicago and North Western tracks between Omaha and Chicago.

But in that year, because of poor maintenance on the C&NW, UP and SP switched to the Milwaukee Road (Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Paul and Pacific). That was the beginning of a long decline for the C&NW.

 

[jis]

I guessthe routes taken by UP trains east of Omaha do not host any Amtrak trains, since Amtrak does CHI - Omaha on BNSF?

 

[philabos]

I guessthe routes taken by UP trains east of Omaha do not host any Amtrak trains, since Amtrak does CHI - Omaha on BNSF?

That is correct. The former C&NW is freight only from Omaha to the Chicago commuter district at Elburn IL where UP operates the suburban service between there and Chicago.

 

[zephyr17]

I guessthe routes taken by UP trains east of Omaha do not host any Amtrak trains, since Amtrak does CHI - Omaha on BNSF?

If fact, the route taken by the "Cities" streamliners is entirely freight only from Alazon, NV (near Wells) on east. East of Omaha, the former C&NW is freight only until the Chicago commuter district, and the Milwaukee Road, used by the Cities after 1955, has been torn up.
The UP route from Cheyenne (Speer) to Denver used by the City of St. Louis is freight-only, and the cutoff from Julesburg to Denver used by the City of Denver is partly abandoned, and the rest freight only, and the KP from Denver to Kansas City is freight only. I am not sure whether the former Wabash from KC to St. Louis used by the City of St. Louis is still there and freight only or abandoned.

 

[railiner]

I guessthe routes taken by UP trains east of Omaha do not host any Amtrak trains, since Amtrak does CHI - Omaha on BNSF?

At one time, the Zephyr would operate over a tiny bit of it, when they ran from Omaha over the UP Bridge to Council Bluffs (about 3 miles?)....then the train would return to BN rails, turn South for the run down to Pacific Junction, where they would turn East again, and join the BN mainline from Plattsmouth where they currently cross the Missouri on BN's bridge...

I believe they may still at least have that option today, if operating conditions warrant it....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I guessthe routes taken by UP trains east of Omaha do not host any Amtrak trains, since Amtrak does CHI - Omaha on BNSF?

If fact, the route taken by the "Cities" streamliners is entirely freight only from Alazon, NV (near Wells) on east. East of Omaha, the former C&NW is freight only until the Chicago commuter district, and the Milwaukee Road, used by the Cities after 1955, has been torn up.
The UP route from Cheyenne (Speer) to Denver used by the City of St. Louis is freight-only, and the cutoff from Julesburg to Denver used by the City of Denver is partly abandoned, and the rest freight only, and the KP from Denver to Kansas City is freight only. I am not sure whether the former Wabash from KC to St. Louis used by the City of St. Louis is still there and freight only or abandoned.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I guessthe routes taken by UP trains east of Omaha do not host any Amtrak trains, since Amtrak does CHI - Omaha on BNSF?

If fact, the route taken by the "Cities" streamliners is entirely freight only from Alazon, NV (near Wells) on east. East of Omaha, the former C&NW is freight only until the Chicago commuter district, and the Milwaukee Road, used by the Cities after 1955, has been torn up.
The UP route from Cheyenne (Speer) to Denver used by the City of St. Louis is freight-only, and the cutoff from Julesburg to Denver used by the City of Denver is partly abandoned, and the rest freight only, and the KP from Denver to Kansas City is freight only. I am not sure whether the former Wabash from KC to St. Louis used by the City of St. Louis is still there and freight only or abandoned.

The cutoff through Sterling is partially abandoned? Why doesn't UP use that connection into Denver anymore? It could be quite useful. The MP line to Colorado Springs was redundant, though, so it got cut in favour of the line through Hays.

 

[railiner]

I guessthe routes taken by UP trains east of Omaha do not host any Amtrak trains, since Amtrak does CHI - Omaha on BNSF?

If fact, the route taken by the "Cities" streamliners is entirely freight only from Alazon, NV (near Wells) on east. East of Omaha, the former C&NW is freight only until the Chicago commuter district, and the Milwaukee Road, used by the Cities after 1955, has been torn up.
The UP route from Cheyenne (Speer) to Denver used by the City of St. Louis is freight-only, and the cutoff from Julesburg to Denver used by the City of Denver is partly abandoned, and the rest freight only, and the KP from Denver to Kansas City is freight only. I am not sure whether the former Wabash from KC to St. Louis used by the City of St. Louis is still there and freight only or abandoned.

The cutoff through Sterling is partially abandoned? Why doesn't UP use that connection into Denver anymore? It could be quite useful. The MP line to Colorado Springs was redundant, though, so it got cut in favour of the line through Hays.

The UP City of Denver line left the mainline at Julesburg, went southwest thru Sterling, then to Union, then west to Fort Morgan, and finally ended at LaSalle, on the Cheyenne-Greeley-Denver line. The Burlington has trackage rights from Sterling to Union, on its line from Sidney to Brush, where it joins the Lincoln to Denver mainline.

I am not familiar with the abandonment from Julesburg to Sterling, but if so, they can get around that by running the main from Julesburg to Sidney, and then use BNSF tracks from Sidney down to Sterling. If the line from Union to LaSalle is also gone, they can just go all the way to Cheyenne and then go south.....

Too bad that these lines are gone....I have been on the Zephyr when it detoured over the UP from Denver to Union, and then down to Brush, when the BN main was blocked. The UP station at Fort Morgan is a mile or so north of the BN/Amtrak station.....

As for the MoPac.....its line from Kansas City to Colorado ran to Pueblo, not Colorado Springs. The only road that ran into Colorado Springs from the East was the Rock Island, which crossed the UP Kansas line at Limon. The Rock also had trackage rights into Denver over that UP line....

 

[fulham]

Another interesting point...I have a copy of the 1968 Official Guide (the gold centennial copy), and in looking in the Southern Pacific section under the San Joaquin route, they have the the San Joaquin listed and also on the same route, the San Francisco Chief. In the header section it states "Southern Pacific and AT&SF passenger service". Of course the SF Chief is only shown from Bakersfield to the Bay Area while the San Joaquin shows going through to LA. I had never noticed this before, and it surprised me that given the stance SP took towards passenger service during this time period, that they would show the schedule of the SF Chief for the convenience of the travelling public.

Also, another thing, off topic, the Cascade, City of San Francisco, and Coast Daylight show meal and beverage service along with the infamous automat car. The Sunset only shows the automat car...no meal and beverage service. Does anyone know if the SP was still running diners on the Cascade, City of SF and Coast Daylight, or was it some combination lounge/diner type service?

 

[zephyr17]

The reason it shows as "Southern Pacific & ATSF passenger service" is that SP was trying to get its LA passengers to take the much faster Santa Fe bus. The reason was they were trying to get the PUC to agree to at least truncate the San Joaquin Daylight at Bakersfield, much like today's Amtrak San Joaquins. If they could get them to ride the SF Chief, too, so much the better to drive down their own passenger counts and make the case to discontinue the San Joaquin Daylight entirely. It is entirely in character for Espee in the late 60's to encourage passengers to book away from their services. Remember, the Coast Daylight was the ONLY train that SP never got around to petitioning for discontinuation, although the Lark was the last one they were successful at.

The Coast Daylight, at least, in summer 1968 was running with separate diner and lounge and in fact had a pair of the 3/4 "home built" domes as the lounge cars on the Coast Daylight, IIRC. But that was only in the summer, they withdrew both the diner and dome after the summer season.