the flagship of amtrak?

[guest in the west]

The reason it shows as "Southern Pacific & ATSF passenger service" is that SP was trying to get its LA passengers to take the much faster Santa Fe bus. The reason was they were trying to get the PUC to agree to at least truncate the San Joaquin Daylight at Bakersfield, much like today's Amtrak San Joaquins. If they could get them to ride the SF Chief, too, so much the better to drive down their own passenger counts and make the case to discontinue the San Joaquin Daylight entirely. It is entirely in character for Espee in the late 60's to encourage passengers to book away from their services. Remember, the Coast Daylight was the ONLY train that SP never got around to petitioning for discontinuation, although the Lark was the last one they were successful at.
The Coast Daylight, at least, in summer 1968 was running with separate diner and lounge and in fact had a pair of the 3/4 "home built" domes as the lounge cars on the Coast Daylight, IIRC. But that was only in the summer, they withdrew both the diner and dome after the summer season.

Except that Santa Fe had ended its Golden Gate service between LA and SF sometime after 1965 and before 1968, which operated much like the Amtrak San Joaquins today, with dedicated bus service between LA and Bakersfield, and then a streamlined train between Bakersfield and the Bay Area.

So in 1968, with SP listing the SF Chief in its timetable, the more likely inference seems to be that SP wanted to cut its single Valley Daylight completely as there was already this transcontinental train making essentially the same route and stops between SF and Bakersfield. There was no bus connection with the SF Chief in Bakersfield for Los Angeles. The only way by train between LA and Bakersfield was the meandering SP route through the Antelope Valley and across the Tehachapis. I am sure there was bus service by Greyhound and/or Trailways though I don't know if it coordinated at all with any trains running through the Central Valley.

I don't believe SP ever had a full diner on the Coast or Valley daylights even in the halcyon days but rather coffee-shop/lounge service. The diners were used on the Lark and the Owl IIRC.

 

[zephyr17]

I have a 1970 Santa Fe timetable with a bus connection from Los Angeles to the SF Chief (NOT the then extinct Golden Gates). I know that in the late 60s SP did petition the PUC to drop the SJ Daylight between Bakersfield and LA after the PUC denied the petition to kill it entirely, and offered encouraged passengers the option of booking to Bakersfield via the Santa Fe bus, encouraging its use over the SJ Daylight to Bakersfield for passengers having the temerity to insist on riding an SP train at all.

The dining service on the Daylight was indeed a coffee shop, but it was not a coffee shop/lounge. The primary difference between coffee shop and a diner on the SP was that a "dining car" service used multiple plates, such as separate plates for sides, and had linen tableclothes. Coffee shop service was single plate service on placemats. I didn't think that difference was really worth noting much in the context of this discussion as today either would pretty much qualify as a diner. While there were coffee shop/lounges units such as the Pride of Texas coffee shop/lounges built for the Sunset, coffee shop service and coffee shop/lounge are not synonomous. SP did run 3/4 domes as lounge service on the Daylight in the summer in the late 60s in addition to the food service. I am not sure whether 1968 or 1969 was the last year they did that. I am pretty sure they didn't in 1970.

The Coast Daylight in the halcyon days ran triple-unit articulated diner/coffee shop cars with the kitchen in the middle unit serving both the dining room on one end unit and the coffee shop on the other. The Cascade and Lark had triple unit diner/lounges with the kitchen/dorm as one of the end units. In the evening the two diner/lounge units were set up primarily as a lounge with mostly lounge seating and tables towards the kitchen car set up for dinner service, while in the morning for breakfast service most of tables were set up for dining.

I am not sure what the Owl had off the top of my head, but it wasn't a feature train, and probably only had a coffee shop at most. The Starlight had a Tavern car and coffee shop, IIRC.

 

[guest in the west]

I have a 1970 Santa Fe timetable with a bus connection from Los Angeles to the SF Chief (NOT the then extinct Golden Gates). I know that in the late 60s SP did petition the PUC to drop the SJ Daylight between Bakersfield and LA after the PUC denied the petition to kill it entirely, and offered encouraged passengers the option of booking to Bakersfield via the Santa Fe bus, encouraging its use over the SJ Daylight to Bakersfield for passengers having the temerity to insist on riding an SP train at all.
The dining service on the Daylight was indeed a coffee shop, but it was not a coffee shop/lounge. The primary difference between coffee shop and a diner on the SP was that a "dining car" service used multiple plates, such as separate plates for sides, and had linen tableclothes. Coffee shop service was single plate service on placemats. I didn't think that difference was really worth noting much in the context of this discussion as today either would pretty much qualify as a diner. While there were coffee shop/lounges units such as the Pride of Texas coffee shop/lounges built for the Sunset, coffee shop service and coffee shop/lounge are not synonomous. SP did run 3/4 domes as lounge service on the Daylight in the summer in the late 60s in addition to the food service. I am not sure whether 1968 or 1969 was the last year they did that. I am pretty sure they didn't in 1970.

The Coast Daylight in the halcyon days ran triple-unit articulated diner/coffee shop cars with the kitchen in the middle unit serving both the dining room on one end unit and the coffee shop on the other. The Cascade and Lark had triple unit diner/lounges with the kitchen/dorm as one of the end units. In the evening the two diner/lounge units were set up primarily as a lounge with mostly lounge seating and tables towards the kitchen car set up for dinner service, while in the morning for breakfast service most of tables were set up for dining.

I am not sure what the Owl had off the top of my head, but it wasn't a feature train, and probably only had a coffee shop at most. The Starlight had a Tavern car and coffee shop, IIRC.

This is all very interesting!! What type of 1970 SF timetable do you have that shows the coordinated bus with the SF Chief? My understanding is that after 1966, Santa Fe only printed abbreviated, condensed timetables for its system, dropping (as did SP and a lot of other railroads) the beautiful full-colored timetables issued for decades and decades.

I have what I believe is the last full 1966 SF timetable, and it shows two buses daily between LA and Bakersfield, one coordinated with the once daily round-trip Golden Gate, and the other coordinated with the once-daily round-trip SP Valley Daylight!! In 1966!! There was no bus coordinated with the SF Chief either arriving or departing Bakersfield.

A July 15, 1968 Condensed SF system timetable that I have shows no bus connection with the SF Chief into or out of Bakersfield.

A June 1968 Official Guide of the Railways shows no bus coordination for the SF Chief between LA and Bakersfield in the Santa Fe timetables. In the SP timetables for the Central Valley, the SF Chief timetable for the Central Valley between Bakersfield and Richmond/San Francisco is listed but with no bus service between Bakersfield and LA.

A February 1970 Official Guide of the Railways has no coordinated bus service between Bakersfield and LA in the Santa Fe timetables section, and the SP timetables listing no longer show the SF Chief service in its Central Valley timetables.

The April 1971 Official Guide of the Railways, the last before Amtrak took over most of the passenger rail, has listings the same as in the February 1970 Guide.

So I'm wondering if the 1970 schedule you have was a short-term experiment that didn't last long? Given that the SF-bound SF Chief left Bakersfield at 3:30 a.m., I can't imagine very many people wanting to board at bus about midnight at LAUS for points north! Eastbound it departed Bakersfield about 10 p.m., meaning a bus connection would have gotten you into LA about 1 a.m. Even the pokey, long-way-around Valley Daylight would have offered better arrival and departure scenarios for passengers.

Strangely, between 1968 and 1971, the Santa Fe ran a through sleeper between LA and Chicago on the SF Chief between Chicago and Barstow, which was then switched to the non-streamlined Grand Canyon for the Barstow-LA portion (and by 1968, SF had dropped the Grand Canyon name though the train still ran on essentially its same schedule until Amtrak assumed control).

You're right that diner vs coffee shop is a distinction without a real difference in the salad days of SP service on the Coast Daylight, especially with the triple units. And you're right about the Starlight service, which remained open all night between LA and San Francisco. (Imagine sitting in the beautiful lounge about 3 a.m. on the horseshoe curve out of San Luis Obispo!)

Looking back at the consist listings in various guides and SP schedules, the Owl ran always ran with a hamburger-grill car after WW II. But the West Coast, the overnight train between Sacramento and LA, had a full diner until the late 1950s, when the service deteriorated to a snack-lounge car, and then the train disappeared after 1960.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I guessthe routes taken by UP trains east of Omaha do not host any Amtrak trains, since Amtrak does CHI - Omaha on BNSF?

If fact, the route taken by the "Cities" streamliners is entirely freight only from Alazon, NV (near Wells) on east. East of Omaha, the former C&NW is freight only until the Chicago commuter district, and the Milwaukee Road, used by the Cities after 1955, has been torn up.
The UP route from Cheyenne (Speer) to Denver used by the City of St. Louis is freight-only, and the cutoff from Julesburg to Denver used by the City of Denver is partly abandoned, and the rest freight only, and the KP from Denver to Kansas City is freight only. I am not sure whether the former Wabash from KC to St. Louis used by the City of St. Louis is still there and freight only or abandoned.

The cutoff through Sterling is partially abandoned? Why doesn't UP use that connection into Denver anymore? It could be quite useful. The MP line to Colorado Springs was redundant, though, so it got cut in favour of the line through Hays.

The UP City of Denver line left the mainline at Julesburg, went southwest thru Sterling, then to Union, then west to Fort Morgan, and finally ended at LaSalle, on the Cheyenne-Greeley-Denver line. The Burlington has trackage rights from Sterling to Union, on its line from Sidney to Brush, where it joins the Lincoln to Denver mainline.

I am not familiar with the abandonment from Julesburg to Sterling, but if so, they can get around that by running the main from Julesburg to Sidney, and then use BNSF tracks from Sidney down to Sterling. If the line from Union to LaSalle is also gone, they can just go all the way to Cheyenne and then go south.....

Too bad that these lines are gone....I have been on the Zephyr when it detoured over the UP from Denver to Union, and then down to Brush, when the BN main was blocked. The UP station at Fort Morgan is a mile or so north of the BN/Amtrak station.....

As for the MoPac.....its line from Kansas City to Colorado ran to Pueblo, not Colorado Springs. The only road that ran into Colorado Springs from the East was the Rock Island, which crossed the UP Kansas line at Limon. The Rock also had trackage rights into Denver over that UP line....

I am somewhat familiar with the area, so I check a map and it appears that the line was totally abandoned from somewhere south of Sterling all the way into Denver. By "totally abandoned" I mean that the track looks to have been pulled out and gutted. The line from Julesburg to Sterling still exists and seems to be in pretty good condition, with no weeds and the like. This line is right beside US 138. Right now the only railroad line through Fort Morgan and Brush is the BNSF line.

I made a mistake with the MP line. Looks like the Colorado Eagle went to Pueblo, then switched to UP trackage for service up to Denver, through Colorado Springs.

The Rocky Mountain Rocket went through Colby to Limon, before spilitting into Denver and Colorado Springs sections. The line appears to be run by KYLE from Limon to somewhere north of Belleville. From there to Fairbury, it's abandoned.

 

[guest in the west]

I guessthe routes taken by UP trains east of Omaha do not host any Amtrak trains, since Amtrak does CHI - Omaha on BNSF?

If fact, the route taken by the "Cities" streamliners is entirely freight only from Alazon, NV (near Wells) on east. East of Omaha, the former C&NW is freight only until the Chicago commuter district, and the Milwaukee Road, used by the Cities after 1955, has been torn up.
The UP route from Cheyenne (Speer) to Denver used by the City of St. Louis is freight-only, and the cutoff from Julesburg to Denver used by the City of Denver is partly abandoned, and the rest freight only, and the KP from Denver to Kansas City is freight only. I am not sure whether the former Wabash from KC to St. Louis used by the City of St. Louis is still there and freight only or abandoned.

The cutoff through Sterling is partially abandoned? Why doesn't UP use that connection into Denver anymore? It could be quite useful. The MP line to Colorado Springs was redundant, though, so it got cut in favour of the line through Hays.

The UP City of Denver line left the mainline at Julesburg, went southwest thru Sterling, then to Union, then west to Fort Morgan, and finally ended at LaSalle, on the Cheyenne-Greeley-Denver line. The Burlington has trackage rights from Sterling to Union, on its line from Sidney to Brush, where it joins the Lincoln to Denver mainline.

I am not familiar with the abandonment from Julesburg to Sterling, but if so, they can get around that by running the main from Julesburg to Sidney, and then use BNSF tracks from Sidney down to Sterling. If the line from Union to LaSalle is also gone, they can just go all the way to Cheyenne and then go south.....

Too bad that these lines are gone....I have been on the Zephyr when it detoured over the UP from Denver to Union, and then down to Brush, when the BN main was blocked. The UP station at Fort Morgan is a mile or so north of the BN/Amtrak station.....

As for the MoPac.....its line from Kansas City to Colorado ran to Pueblo, not Colorado Springs. The only road that ran into Colorado Springs from the East was the Rock Island, which crossed the UP Kansas line at Limon. The Rock also had trackage rights into Denver over that UP line....

I am somewhat familiar with the area, so I check a map and it appears that the line was totally abandoned from somewhere south of Sterling all the way into Denver. By "totally abandoned" I mean that the track looks to have been pulled out and gutted. The line from Julesburg to Sterling still exists and seems to be in pretty good condition, with no weeds and the like. This line is right beside US 138. Right now the only railroad line through Fort Morgan and Brush is the BNSF line.

I made a mistake with the MP line. Looks like the Colorado Eagle went to Pueblo, then switched to UP trackage for service up to Denver, through Colorado Springs.

The Rocky Mountain Rocket went through Colby to Limon, before spilitting into Denver and Colorado Springs sections. The line appears to be run by KYLE from Limon to somewhere north of Belleville. From there to Fairbury, it's abandoned.

The MP Colorado Eagle ran on D&RGW trackage between Denver and Pueblo.

As an aside ,for some time in the 1950s, also picked up a through sleeper from Los Angeles (via the Golden State SP-RI) at Kansas City for the Kansas City-St. Louis portion, and dropped off a through sleeper at Kansas City westbound.

 

[railiner]

I guessthe routes taken by UP trains east of Omaha do not host any Amtrak trains, since Amtrak does CHI - Omaha on BNSF?

If fact, the route taken by the "Cities" streamliners is entirely freight only from Alazon, NV (near Wells) on east. East of Omaha, the former C&NW is freight only until the Chicago commuter district, and the Milwaukee Road, used by the Cities after 1955, has been torn up.
The UP route from Cheyenne (Speer) to Denver used by the City of St. Louis is freight-only, and the cutoff from Julesburg to Denver used by the City of Denver is partly abandoned, and the rest freight only, and the KP from Denver to Kansas City is freight only. I am not sure whether the former Wabash from KC to St. Louis used by the City of St. Louis is still there and freight only or abandoned.

The cutoff through Sterling is partially abandoned? Why doesn't UP use that connection into Denver anymore? It could be quite useful. The MP line to Colorado Springs was redundant, though, so it got cut in favour of the line through Hays.

The UP City of Denver line left the mainline at Julesburg, went southwest thru Sterling, then to Union, then west to Fort Morgan, and finally ended at LaSalle, on the Cheyenne-Greeley-Denver line. The Burlington has trackage rights from Sterling to Union, on its line from Sidney to Brush, where it joins the Lincoln to Denver mainline.

I am not familiar with the abandonment from Julesburg to Sterling, but if so, they can get around that by running the main from Julesburg to Sidney, and then use BNSF tracks from Sidney down to Sterling. If the line from Union to LaSalle is also gone, they can just go all the way to Cheyenne and then go south.....

Too bad that these lines are gone....I have been on the Zephyr when it detoured over the UP from Denver to Union, and then down to Brush, when the BN main was blocked. The UP station at Fort Morgan is a mile or so north of the BN/Amtrak station.....

As for the MoPac.....its line from Kansas City to Colorado ran to Pueblo, not Colorado Springs. The only road that ran into Colorado Springs from the East was the Rock Island, which crossed the UP Kansas line at Limon. The Rock also had trackage rights into Denver over that UP line....

I am somewhat familiar with the area, so I check a map and it appears that the line was totally abandoned from somewhere south of Sterling all the way into Denver. By "totally abandoned" I mean that the track looks to have been pulled out and gutted. The line from Julesburg to Sterling still exists and seems to be in pretty good condition, with no weeds and the like. This line is right beside US 138. Right now the only railroad line through Fort Morgan and Brush is the BNSF line.

I made a mistake with the MP line. Looks like the Colorado Eagle went to Pueblo, then switched to UP trackage for service up to Denver, through Colorado Springs.

The Rocky Mountain Rocket went through Colby to Limon, before spilitting into Denver and Colorado Springs sections. The line appears to be run by KYLE from Limon to somewhere north of Belleville. From there to Fairbury, it's abandoned.

The line from Sterling to at least Union must still exist, as BNSF is the primary user via trackage rights of that portion for its coal trains coming down from Wyoming to Denver and points south. And the line from LaSalle to Denver must still exist as well being on the UP Denver to Wyoming line. So the only portion abandoned must be from Union to LaSalle.

I recall watching the epic television miniseries "Centennial", from the James Michener novel. being filmed at Orchard, Co. on the UP back in the mid-seventies. They renamed the town 'Centennial, Co." for the movie, and covered the paved main street with dirt.

As for the Colorado Eagle, as pointed out above, it ran on the Rio Grande-Santa Fe-Colorado & Southern "Joint Line" between Pueblo and Denver, as a D&RGW (now UP) train.

 

[guest in the west]

In thinking about all the through-service passenger car agreements among railroads pre-Amtrak, it seems that the Santa Fe is the only railroad that had no inter-company agreements, perhaps owing to the fact that it owned its own tracks all the way between Chicago and the West Coast (not counting the joint-usage of the Tehachapi Loop with SP between Mojave and Bakersfield as an inter-company agreement because the entire SF San Francisco Chief consist remained as is).

Other than the Santa Fe, every railroad from the West Coast--NP, GN, SP, UP, Mil Road--to the inter-mountain West and Midwest-- D&RGW, Rock Island, Burlington, IC, MP, T&P, Katy--to the East--NYC, B&M. Penn, ACL, Seabord, Southern--and so on and so forth--all required interline agreements with car switches at key midpoints for many if not all of their passenger trains to ply logical city endpoints.

Can anyone think of another line besides Santa Fe that ran only on its own trackage?

 

[zephyr17]

At least from the midwest to the West Coast, the Milwaukee Road is the only other one that ran on its own rails all the way to the West Coast from Chicago aside from Santa Fe that I can think of. Even for them, I think the Olympian Hiawatha had to use UP trackage rights to get into Spokane, as the Milwaukee Road main didn't go through Spokane. Although I am pretty sure it was a Milwaukee operation over UP trackage rights, similiar to the fact that the SF Chief was a Santa Fe operation over SP trackage rights over Tehachapi.

My understanding is the fact that Santa Fe was the only single RR route between Chicago and California was the origin of the "Santa Fe, All the Way!" slogan.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

In thinking about all the through-service passenger car agreements among railroads pre-Amtrak, it seems that the Santa Fe is the only railroad that had no inter-company agreements, perhaps owing to the fact that it owned its own tracks all the way between Chicago and the West Coast (not counting the joint-usage of the Tehachapi Loop with SP between Mojave and Bakersfield as an inter-company agreement because the entire SF San Francisco Chief consist remained as is).
Other than the Santa Fe, every railroad from the West Coast--NP, GN, SP, UP, Mil Road--to the inter-mountain West and Midwest-- D&RGW, Rock Island, Burlington, IC, MP, T&P, Katy--to the East--NYC, B&M. Penn, ACL, Seabord, Southern--and so on and so forth--all required interline agreements with car switches at key midpoints for many if not all of their passenger trains to ply logical city endpoints.

Can anyone think of another line besides Santa Fe that ran only on its own trackage?

But keep in mind that Santa Fe had transcon sleepers

 

[railiner]

The 'friendly Southern Pacific' ran all the way from New Orleans to San Francisco on its own rails....isn't that a fair comparison? And if you count it's subsidiary Cotton Belt, from Memphis and St. Louis as well.....

And the Burlington Northern was a single road for a brief period prior to Amtrak, so it ran its own trains from Chicago to Portland and Seattle all the way, as well.....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

At least from the midwest to the West Coast, the Milwaukee Road is the only other one that ran on its own rails all the way to the West Coast from Chicago aside from Santa Fe that I can think of. Even for them, I think the Olympian Hiawatha had to use UP trackage rights to get into Spokane, as the Milwaukee Road main didn't go through Spokane. Although I am pretty sure it was a Milwaukee operation over UP trackage rights, similiar to the fact that the SF Chief was a Santa Fe operation over SP trackage rights over Tehachapi.
My understanding is the fact that Santa Fe was the only single RR route between Chicago and California was the origin of the "Santa Fe, All the Way!" slogan.

Too bad the Milwaukee Road was abandoned west of Miles City. We could sure use this line now with the oil boom and such.

The 'friendly Southern Pacific' ran all the way from New Orleans to San Francisco on its own rails....isn't that a fair comparison? And if you count it's subsidiary Cotton Belt, from Memphis and St. Louis as well.....And the Burlington Northern was a single road for a brief period prior to Amtrak, so it ran its own trains from Chicago to Portland and Seattle all the way, as well.....

That's what I thought of as well. The SP was a really big system.

 

[JayPea]

At least from the midwest to the West Coast, the Milwaukee Road is the only other one that ran on its own rails all the way to the West Coast from Chicago aside from Santa Fe that I can think of. Even for them, I think the Olympian Hiawatha had to use UP trackage rights to get into Spokane, as the Milwaukee Road main didn't go through Spokane. Although I am pretty sure it was a Milwaukee operation over UP trackage rights, similiar to the fact that the SF Chief was a Santa Fe operation over SP trackage rights over Tehachapi.My understanding is the fact that Santa Fe was the only single RR route between Chicago and California was the origin of the "Santa Fe, All the Way!" slogan.

You are correct in that the Olympian Hiawatha used UP tracking rights into Spokane. From Manitou Jct., about 30 miles east of Spokane, to Marengo, about 80 miles SW of Spokane, it ran over UP trackage.

 

[guest in the west]

Yes, thanks for the Southern Pacific example from New Orleans to San Francisco! Indeed, that was SP trackage all the way and I should have thought of that. I guess my original thinking was geared more to service between Chicago and the West Coast, where Santa Fe indeed had the only complete trackage of any of the railroads (Chicago-LA) until the mergers/consolidations began in the 1960s.

As for SP through-sleepers between LA and Memphis/St. Louis, the routing actually left SP at El Paso and followed Texas & Pacific and then Missouri Pacific tracks to the eastern destinations. There was no routing over Cotton Belt (St. Louis Southwestern) tracks between Dallas and points east, at least as far as I can determine from timetables and guides post-WW II.

I am curious about the Milwaukee Road having trackage rights on UP into Spokane. From maps of the UP, Milwaukee Road and Northern Pacific, it appears that the Milwaukee Road routing into Spokane used Northern Pacific tracks, as UP had no east-west track in the Spokane area, only track south from the city to connect to the UP main line running east-west along the Columbia River. And from the Milwaukee Road map, it appears the company actually had its own tracks clear to Seattle, but those tracks ran south of Spokane and obviously were not useful for its passenger trains wanting to stop in Spokane; hence the rights over what appears to be Northern Pacific tracks (from an NP map of the 1950s).

 

[JayPea]

The Milwaukee did indeed use Union Pacfic tracks. East of Spokane, the UP line was actually a branch line from, as I say, Manitou Jct. to Spokane. And from Spokane, it used the UP main to Marengo. The Milwaukee did have its main line all the way to Seattle, but it did run south of Spokane. I grew up about 9 miles from the old Milwaukee main line. There's a lake about 10 miles from my boyhood home, and the Mliwaukee ran along its eastern shore. As a young lad, I was able to combine two of my then favorite pasttimes--fishing and watching trains.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

The Milwaukee did indeed use Union Pacfic tracks. East of Spokane, the UP line was actually a branch line from, as I say, Manitou Jct. to Spokane. And from Spokane, it used the UP main to Marengo. The Milwaukee did have its main line all the way to Seattle, but it did run south of Spokane. I grew up about 9 miles from the old Milwaukee main line. There's a lake about 10 miles from my boyhood home, and the Mliwaukee ran along its eastern shore. As a young lad, I was able to combine two of my then favorite pasttimes--fishing and watching trains.

Where was that? I found a map that show the Milwaukee Road going through St. Regis and Avery.

 

[JayPea]

Swadian, if you follow your map westward from Avery, you will see the line went through St. Maries and Plummer in Idaho. In Washington, follow it through Tekoa, Rosalia, Malden, Pine City, and Ewan. Between Pine City and Ewan, there is the lake I'm referring to, Rock Lake. I grew up in St.. John, 10 or so miles from the lake. St. John was along a branch of the UP. The Milwaukee trackage rights on the UP began west of Plummer.

 

[railiner]

What about in the Seattle area....did the Milwaukee use UP or BN tracks to get into there? I believe their own tracks only went into Tacoma, but not exactly sure....

 

[JayPea]

I may be mistaken on this but I believe the Mliwaukee tracks went to Seattle first before going south to Tacoma. I also believe both Milwaukee and UP trains served Seattle's Union Station while the NP and GN served King St. statuon

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Swadian, if you follow your map westward from Avery, you will see the line went through St. Maries and Plummer in Idaho. In Washington, follow it through Tekoa, Rosalia, Malden, Pine City, and Ewan. Between Pine City and Ewan, there is the lake I'm referring to, Rock Lake. I grew up in St.. John, 10 or so miles from the lake. St. John was along a branch of the UP. The Milwaukee trackage rights on the UP began west of Plummer.

Right on it! The American Rails map I was using din't have the lake, but I'll try Google Maps.

What about in the Seattle area....did the Milwaukee use UP or BN tracks to get into there? I believe their own tracks only went into Tacoma, but not exactly sure....

Apparently the line did go to Seattle, but there was a cutoff to Tacoma running through Enumclaw. Here's the map, if anyone is interested: https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-OmaEyAFJEqs/TNggAo1t10I/AAAAAAAAABo/7djnhIqVLxM/s1500/milwaukee-road-system-map.jpg

American Rails has lots of great maps.

 

[railiner]

I may be mistaken on this but I believe the Mliwaukee tracks went to Seattle first before going south to Tacoma. I also believe both Milwaukee and UP trains served Seattle's Union Station while the NP and GN served King St. statuon

I think you are correct on the former, and I know you are correct on the latter sentence.....

 

[railiner]

Swadian, if you follow your map westward from Avery, you will see the line went through St. Maries and Plummer in Idaho. In Washington, follow it through Tekoa, Rosalia, Malden, Pine City, and Ewan. Between Pine City and Ewan, there is the lake I'm referring to, Rock Lake. I grew up in St.. John, 10 or so miles from the lake. St. John was along a branch of the UP. The Milwaukee trackage rights on the UP began west of Plummer.

Right on it! The American Rails map I was using din't have the lake, but I'll try Google Maps.

What about in the Seattle area....did the Milwaukee use UP or BN tracks to get into there? I believe their own tracks only went into Tacoma, but not exactly sure....

Apparently the line did go to Seattle, but there was a cutoff to Tacoma running through Enumclaw. Here's the map, if anyone is interested: https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-OmaEyAFJEqs/TNggAo1t10I/AAAAAAAAABo/7djnhIqVLxM/s1500/milwaukee-road-system-map.jpg

American Rails has lots of great maps.

The linked map is very nice, but it doesn't indicate whether certain segments are owned, or are trackage rights, as has been discussed earlier....

 

[JayPea]

I have a book at home on the history of the Milwaukee road's Western extension which would give a definitive answer. I'm in Seattle however, 270 miles from home. In the meantime, I'm almost 100% positive the Milwaukee ran on its own tracks from Seattle to Tacoma. The 1/100th of a % that's not sure says it would have run on UP tracks since Union Station served both UP and Milwaukee tracks. But I'm as close to positive without being right there that it ran on its own tracks between Seattle and Tacoma.