The future of Amtrak and the long distance trains

[RCBev]

Just took a quick read through of this .. but I will make two points: 1) I am a travel deal junkie "give me the best bang for my buck" kind of gal. As of right now .. that is travelling on Amtrak in coach. I have the luxury of having a good vacation package at my work -- even more than my husband, which is a bummer. I am NOT a spring chicken (in my 50's) again coach is not a problem for me. 2) IF Amtrak can really market to the young hipsters and really promote "Green" and redesign the Fleet more "retro", might be able to get more to travel on LD's. High speed WIFi has GOT TO HAPPEN .. and yes that means having enuf bandwidth to stream Netflix!! Gotta watch "Game of Thrones". Maybe those new "high speed chips" that are coming out next year from Qualcomm will help with the tech. I know Amtrak doesn't have $$ for advertising .. but they need to advertise. Get a booth at SXSW next year -- HA!!

 

[tonys96]

Vitriol? Like this:

- "Texas needs to declare its secession from the union. I will host a going away party at my house. All are invited"

or "Beautiful and Texas are mutually exclusive."

Then Henry is chastised for defending his home state? Wow! This is a tough crowd.......

 

[tonys96]

But that is assuming that all routes are worthy of continuation, no matter what, which is a questionable assumption.

When you have nothing more than a skeletal system. virtually every route is worthy of continuation.

Agreed.

 

[Paulus]

But that is assuming that all routes are worthy of continuation, no matter what, which is a questionable assumption.

When you have nothing more than a skeletal system. virtually every route is worthy of continuation.

Nonsense. Some routes are why you have nothing more than a skeletal system. It is at times necessary to treat a disease by excision or amputation and that should apply to Amtrak too.

 

[henryj]

I get it that you don't like Texas, the Southwest, the Sunset Ltd, the western trains in general, etc. That is why I would transfer them all to another operator located out here in flyover country, away from DC. And I would take all superliners off the eastern trains including the CONO. Everything east of the Mississippi and NOL and Chicago you can just leave with Amtrak. It doesn't really count anyway. All the 'real' LD trains are out west and they deserve management that actually cares about them. Houston airports handle some 50 million people a year. Amtrak less than 20k. A three times a week train that stops at a one room station under a freeway bridge doesn't attract many riders. Florida and Texas will be the first states to start up privately owned and operated corridor services that actually pay for themselves. I am not waiting for Texas to secede, more like waiting for NY to freeze in the dark. Good luck with all these insane ideas. They will never happen. I love that five year study as it just verifies my cost studies.

So, I'm curious, what makes the west-of-Chicago LD trains the "real" LD trains? (Or, why are the east-of-Chicago LD trains not "real" LD trains?) Is it the distinction between what are essentially overnight trains (or at least single-night trains) east of Chicago and multi-day/multi-night trains west of Chicago? I ask because I do think there are certainly some major differences among the trains grouped together by Amtrak as "Long Distance" (as neroden and GML and others have noted).

And then, based on that distinction, is that why you suggest that Superliner equipment should be restricted to the "real" LD trains? With the other (unreal? fake?) LD trains only using single-level equipment? I don't quite see why the Capitol Limited and City of New Orleans NEED to be switched to single-level equipment (particularly when that equipment needed to operate them is not available).

The western LD trains are two nights out trains and serve multiple functions including national parks, etc. They are all superliner equipped. So I would run them separate from the others and have a maintenance base and operating HQ out here where they run. The CONO and Capitol don't need to be switched except that there are not enough superliners to run the western trains. So I would just put them back to single level equipment unless someone is going to put in an order for new superliners which I just don't see happening.

A more drastic scenario for the Eastern trains is this. Set up a consortium of southern states to run the Florida trains as they have a lot of potential. Another option is to combine the Capitol and the Star and run it straight through DC to Florida. Stop and turn the Crescent and other Florida trains in DC. Run the Crescent only as far as Atlanta. If the states want a day train between Atlanta and NOL let them run it and pay for it. Discontinue the LSL and just run a series of day trains between the largest cities. Through passengers from the west can just use the Capitol and regional and Acela trains to get to NY.

Out West, if you can't get the money to run the existing LD trains then sell off the equipment to a private operator. The only train I see continuing all the way between Chicago and LAX is the SWC and re-routed to the Transcon. The Eagle becomes a day train between St Louis and DFW. Texas starts up it's corridor service south of there. The Heartland Flyer connects in KC. The Sunset becomes a day train between NOL and Houston and a corridor train between Tucson, Phoenix and LAX. The EB becomes a Portland/Seattle to Glacier park special. The CZ morfs into a Denver to Grand Jct round trip and a SFO to Reno fun train. Except for the SWC. none of these trains run daily. Just in the summer and not every day. Chicago to MSP becomes a state corridor problem. The Coast Starlight continues with extra cars to support the demand, but paid for by the three west coast states. You might add a Denver to Yellowstone Park special. People that want to ride these special trains just fly to them and you offer packages that do that.

So that leaves Amtrak as operator of the NEC which now the states it runs through have to fork over the money to run it. And they can be a bidder to run the state supported corridors along with anyone else that is interested. By then most of the states will have their own equipment.

Just a few ideas to chew on.

 

[henryj]

Oh and I forgot about the Cardinal. It becomes a Cincinatti to DC coach daily day train or something like that paid for by the respective states.

 

[neroden]

Discontinue the LSL and just run a series of day trains between the largest cities.

Terrible idea.
The LSL is both the "upstate NY to Chicago" train and the "Boston to Chicago" train and the "NYC to Chicago" train. You need all three. While "NYC to Chicago" could be handled by a different route, the other two can't. And unless you speed up the trains a *lot*, I don't see how to run even Albany-Chicago as a day train -- it's over 15 hours. Now, once you speed the route up, you can start considering reorganizations like this. But you *have to speed the trains up first*, before you consider stuff like this.

(As the "upstate NY to Chicago" train, it becomes obvious that there's a missing link: "upstate NY to Michigan". I'm quite sure that looping the LSL up to Detroit, or having a connecting train to Detroit, would improve riderhsip. Michigan is already considering Grand Rapids-Lansing-Detroit, and this *ought* to continue to Toledo and connect with trains to the east.)

 

[henryj]

Discontinue the LSL and just run a series of day trains between the largest cities.

Terrible idea.
The LSL is both the "upstate NY to Chicago" train and the "Boston to Chicago" train and the "NYC to Chicago" train. You need all three. While "NYC to Chicago" could be handled by a different route, the other two can't. And unless you speed up the trains a *lot*, I don't see how to run even Albany-Chicago as a day train -- it's over 15 hours. Now, once you speed the route up, you can start considering reorganizations like this. But you *have to speed the trains up first*, before you consider stuff like this.

Well, I assumed they would be sped up and also state supported. But the LD Boston to Chicago service is toast under that scenario. It's a minor player anyway. We are talking drastic restructuring of the system under these scenarios, so I see no need for the LSL to continue. Actually, I didn't actually make that point clear, but all this eastern restructuring would end up state supported. There would be no Federal money involved. And if the western trains are sold off those would also not be Fed supported. So basically Federal support of the passenger rail system in the US ends.

 

[Ryan]

What about federal support for aviation and highways? Kick them over to the states as well?

 

[neroden]

-Detroit is over served as it is. Its a dead city, servicing the moribund traditional domestic car industry. GM and Ford are quite clearly not reading the writing Elon Musk sprayed on the wall, and when those two companies inevitably die, what is left of that city will make Rochester look like an overpopulated city. Northern Michigan is underserved, as are the communities in Michigan that are not depending on the former Big Two.

Having actually been to Detroit recently, it isn't nearly as dead as you'd think. I suppose it rose so high that it has had a very long way to fall.
Anyway, the important point is that in order to take Amtrak from Grand Rapids or Lansing or Detroit to the east, you currently have to go through Chicago, which is ridiculous. There should be a route running "the other way", which means from Toledo to Detroit (or Ann Arbor) to Lansing to Grand Rapids, and then east from Toledo.

This is similar to the ridiculousness where you can't get from New Orleans to Florida without going through DC, but in the Gulf States there's no real political support for intercity train service, and in Michigan there is a lot more. (Actually, there is a lot of support in Ohio too, although it's obscured by a *fanatically* anti-rail caucus which is currently in control of the state government there, one which makes special efforts to sabotage municipal rail plans.) Plus which, there's not much track to fix up between Toledo and Detroit -- 60 miles, most of which has four tracks owned by two different railroads, there's got to be a way to get the agreements. This is also a case where the decline of industrial Detroit should mean *less* freight traffic to interfere with attempts to restart passenger service.

- I disagree with you about the CZ. I really have the feeling that the whole operational merit of the California Zephyr west of Denver IS as a land cruise, and moving it from its historical route is misguided. There SHOULD be a day train from Denver to Salt Lake City on the Overland route.

I spent a long time thinking about the CZ.
As a land cruise, it's pretty from Denver to Salt Lake (but surely most people would be fine with Denver to Grand Junction?), and from Reno to California. But as a land cruise, it's got nothing going for it from Reno to Salt Lake, which is also the lowest-ridership section. There also seems to be remarkably little Salt Lake - Colorado skiing traffic. The current schedule prevents reasonable Salt Lake-Denver service, which should be viable (and ought to be on the shorter Overland Route). The CZ's change in railroads at Denver can't be good for the on-time performance. A "Denver hub" system is the correct goal to aim for... but I'm not sure what sequence of events can be found to achieve that.

If you're thinking politically, restoring the Overland Route also may get you votes from Wyoming and Idaho.

NJARP is moribund mostly because the personalities involved in the New Jersey rail scene split into various camps over a few key issues a long bloody time ago and they honestly hate each others guts. Not for any meritorious reasons, just a bunch of half senile, half crazy (or fully crazy) grumpy, crotchety old men. I could go into lists of each personality and their problems, but they are irrelevant (and generally infantile).

I've been trying to reposition the Lackawanna Coalition into a state-wide organization to catch the new generation and provide a more coherent statewide organization. I have several reasons for believing this is the right move. First of all, I've managed to get myself, at 29, elected to an officership position. Joe Clift, a person with impressive credentials (former Director of Planning for the LIRR for one thing) couldn't manage to get elected to NJ ARPs board despite the fact that this failure left some of the boards seats empty. Secondly, we have certain institutional knowledge from our time period with the late, great, and deeply lamented James T. Raleigh. And thirdly, I've found a partner for doing this job who is working tirelessly to accomplish this goal.

Well, speaking of the Lackawanna Coalition, I'd really like to see the Scranton service established, for selfish reasons, and I'm told that what's left of the aged advocates in Binghamton (an aging town where the youth haven't been within two hours' drive of passenger rail service in their lifetimes) have focused on that too. If there's anything I can do to help the Lackawanna Coalition with that long-term goal... let me know. Are you in touch with the PNRRA people in Scranton?

 

[George Harris]

When looking at the NEC ridership and compare it to ridership in other areas, ask yourself this: If the Boston - New York - Washington corridor was served by one train a day that averaged somewhere around 40 mph and ran in the middle of the night and stopped at poorly lit out of the was stations what would its ridership be?

Without trains there can be no train passengers.

Start something like hourly service between Dallas and Houston with end to end times of under 3 hours and see what happens. It could be done for peanuts compared to what has been poured into that sinkhole for money called the Northeast Corridor.

Look at the train frequency and ridership on the San Diegan trains, and they are not really that fast thanks to the alignment and NIMBY's whenever there is any talk of doing things that increase speed.

 

[henryj]

What about federal support for aviation and highways? Kick them over to the states as well?

Well Ryan, if you want the Feds involved you could use the European scenario and have them maintain the track structure and have private operators run the trains. But that would be only for the portions Amtrak owns, like the NEC. The so called LD trains are running on private freight railroads tracks already. But there has been Fed and State support for some of the routes where passenger traffic is large enough to interfere with freight trains. I am just giving you a worst case scenario. Best case is it all just continues as is.

 

[SarahZ]

Vitriol? Like this:

- "Texas needs to declare its secession from the union. I will host a going away party at my house. All are invited"

or "Beautiful and Texas are mutually exclusive."

Then Henry is chastised for defending his home state? Wow! This is a tough crowd.......

I didn't say those things, though. I think all states deserve good rail service, and I don't think any states should secede or disappear off the map, etc.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I get it that you don't like Texas, the Southwest, the Sunset Ltd, the western trains in general, etc.

I don't like Texas, and more so I don't like Texans. Especially ones that have no sense of humor whatsoever.

And no, I don't like the Sunset Limited. It consumes far too much resources that could be better used on improved capacity and service on the WESTERN LONG DISTANCE TRAINS which other than the utterly worthless Sunset Limited are highly useable and well run trains that make a lot of sense and serve distinct passengers who appreciate them. Houston boards 64 passengers a day. Which is utterly amazing. The 4th largest city in the US boards 64 passengers a day. Cincinnati, despite its absurd middle of the night service, boards 48 passengers, a city, haha, a tenth the size. If Houston used the train as much as Cincinnati, it would board 600 passengers. As I was saying, Sunset Limited's constituents do not seem to be particularly interested in their train.

Vitriol? Like this:

- "Texas needs to declare its secession from the union. I will host a going away party at my house. All are invited"

or "Beautiful and Texas are mutually exclusive."

Then Henry is chastised for defending his home state? Wow! This is a tough crowd.......

No, the problem here is certain people don't seem to have much of a sense of humor around here.

The western LD trains are two nights out trains and serve multiple functions including national parks, etc. They are all superliner equipped. So I would run them separate from the others and have a maintenance base and operating HQ out here where they run. The CONO and Capitol don't need to be switched except that there are not enough superliners to run the western trains. So I would just put them back to single level equipment unless someone is going to put in an order for new superliners which I just don't see happening.

This would suggest that their is a surfeit of single level cars. There are not. There is less than needed to run the current Long Distance single level trains as is. There is no particular reason to rob peter to pay paul. The east of Mississippi trains are more profitable. Ipso Facto Amtrak should spend its limited resources expanding ridership potential on the trains that make the most money. If your former CPA training suggests we should allocate scant resources to less profitable business operations, one would like you to explain why.

A more drastic scenario for the Eastern trains is this. Set up a consortium of southern states to run the Florida trains as they have a lot of potential. Another option is to combine the Capitol and the Star and run it straight through DC to Florida. Stop and turn the Crescent and other Florida trains in DC. Run the Crescent only as far as Atlanta. If the states want a day train between Atlanta and NOL let them run it and pay for it. Discontinue the LSL and just run a series of day trains between the largest cities. Through passengers from the west can just use the Capitol and regional and Acela trains to get to NY.

Letting states run anything inter-state is stupid and demonstrates a lack of understanding of political reality. Running the Capitol and Star through to Florida does make sense, so long as low level platforms exist to allow the Superliner consist cars to platform. Turning anything in DC is stupid, and shows you may no finances, but clearly nothing about transportation logistics- if a train does not directly serve a specific major city, it will invariably lose most of its ridership from that city. The removal of the Crescent from New Orleans does make a certain degree of sense, but short turning cars makes a bigger one. Discontinuing the LSL is malarky- it should and to an extent does supplement day trains along the Empire corridor. There should also be a day train Buffalo to Chicago. But the LSL has excellent ridership and an impressive cost recovery basis. Swapping from Heritage to VII diners, the addition of a crew car BOS-CHI and a third sleeper CHI-NYP should actually make it profitable above the rails. Why in gods name would you suggest discontinuing it? Are you trying to be silly on purpose?

Out West, if you can't get the money to run the existing LD trains then sell off the equipment to a private operator. The only train I see continuing all the way between Chicago and LAX is the SWC and re-routed to the Transcon. The Eagle becomes a day train between St Louis and DFW. Texas starts up it's corridor service south of there. The Heartland Flyer connects in KC. The Sunset becomes a day train between NOL and Houston and a corridor train between Tucson, Phoenix and LAX. The EB becomes a Portland/Seattle to Glacier park special. The CZ morfs into a Denver to Grand Jct round trip and a SFO to Reno fun train. Except for the SWC. none of these trains run daily. Just in the summer and not every day. Chicago to MSP becomes a state corridor problem. The Coast Starlight continues with extra cars to support the demand, but paid for by the three west coast states. You might add a Denver to Yellowstone Park special. People that want to ride these special trains just fly to them and you offer packages that do that.

Malarky. Especially your suggestion that Amtrak does not care about the long distance trains.

Discontinue the LSL and just run a series of day trains between the largest cities.

Terrible idea.
The LSL is both the "upstate NY to Chicago" train and the "Boston to Chicago" train and the "NYC to Chicago" train. You need all three. While "NYC to Chicago" could be handled by a different route, the other two can't. And unless you speed up the trains a *lot*, I don't see how to run even Albany-Chicago as a day train -- it's over 15 hours. Now, once you speed the route up, you can start considering reorganizations like this. But you *have to speed the trains up first*, before you consider stuff like this.

Well, I assumed they would be sped up and also state supported. But the LD Boston to Chicago service is toast under that scenario. It's a minor player anyway. We are talking drastic restructuring of the system under these scenarios, so I see no need for the LSL to continue. Actually, I didn't actually make that point clear, but all this eastern restructuring would end up state supported. There would be no Federal money involved. And if the western trains are sold off those would also not be Fed supported. So basically Federal support of the passenger rail system in the US ends.

Interstate service, or at least multi-interstate, should ALWAYS be Federally supported.

Well, speaking of the Lackawanna Coalition, I'd really like to see the Scranton service established, for selfish reasons, and I'm told that what's left of the aged advocates in Binghamton (an aging town where the youth haven't been within two hours' drive of passenger rail service in their lifetimes) have focused on that too. If there's anything I can do to help the Lackawanna Coalition with that long-term goal... let me know. Are you in touch with the PNRRA people in Scranton?

I agree with you on the other points. If you want to talk to me privately about Lackawanna Coalition related things, I'd be happy to discuss them with you.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

What about federal support for aviation and highways? Kick them over to the states as well?

Well Ryan, if you want the Feds involved you could use the European scenario and have them maintain the track structure and have private operators run the trains. But that would be only for the portions Amtrak owns, like the NEC. The so called LD trains are running on private freight railroads tracks already. But there has been Fed and State support for some of the routes where passenger traffic is large enough to interfere with freight trains. I am just giving you a worst case scenario. Best case is it all just continues as is.

Europe still has largely government subsidized trains. England is the one that did that privatization nonsense and it was generally considered to be an unmitigated disaster.

 

[Ryan]

What about federal support for aviation and highways? Kick them over to the states as well?

Well Ryan, if you want the Feds involved you could use the European scenario and have them maintain the track structure and have private operators run the trains. But that would be only for the portions Amtrak owns, like the NEC. The so called LD trains are running on private freight railroads tracks already. But there has been Fed and State support for some of the routes where passenger traffic is large enough to interfere with freight trains. I am just giving you a worst case scenario. Best case is it all just continues as is.

That did absolutely nothing to answer the questions I asked.

 

[henryj]

Well GML, I gave you what you asked for. You trashed all my ideas as not worth reading more or less. So just stick you head in the sand and keep doing what your doing. When you finally pull it out there will be no LD trains anywhere. And I do have a sense of humor. I am LMAO at all your comments.

 

[jebr]

Well GML, I gave you what you asked for. You trashed all my ideas as not worth reading more or less. So just stick you head in the sand and keep doing what your doing. When you finally pull it out there will be no LD trains anywhere. And I do have a sense of humor. I am LMAO at all your comments.

No, he trashed them for not having any solid numbers proving your math.

 

[henryj]

Well GML and the rest, like I said before, all you really want on here is a bunch of BOBBLEHEADS nodding in agreement with your far out ideas. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Good luck with that. Blahahahahahah. See I do have that sense of humor.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I feel like Edward Platt on Get Smart. Henry, can I call you Max? I'm getting a headache.

 

[tonys96]

RE:

Interstate service, or at least multi-interstate, should ALWAYS be Federally supported.

I am sure Rick Perry agrees with you about the Texas-Oklahoma funding put into the Heartland Flyer!

RE:

I don't like Texas, and more so I don't like Texans.

I doubt if many Texans give a hoot.

 

[haolerider]

Well GML and the rest, like I said before, all you really want on here is a bunch of BOBBLEHEADS nodding in agreement with your far out ideas. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Good luck with that. Blahahahahahah. See I do have that sense of humor.

No, we are not "bobbelimg our heads" , we are just shrugging our shoulders and realizing that we will never get actual,figurs and facts from you! Perhaps you should un-retire and take a few refresher courses in accounting.......which is a fact-based occupation.....and not assumption-based! We have asked repeatedly for facts and figures from you, but it is a futile exercise! I quit!

 

[henryj]

Well GML and the rest, like I said before, all you really want on here is a bunch of BOBBLEHEADS nodding in agreement with your far out ideas. Yes, yes, yes, yes. Good luck with that. Blahahahahahah. See I do have that sense of humor.

No, we are not "bobbelimg our heads" , we are just shrugging our shoulders and realizing that we will never get actual,figurs and facts from you! Perhaps you should un-retire and take a few refresher courses in accounting.......which is a fact-based occupation.....and not assumption-based! We have asked repeatedly for facts and figures from you, but it is a futile exercise! I quit!

I don't get paid enough to publish all that information. If you really want it, look it up your self.

 

[henryj]

RE:

Interstate service, or at least multi-interstate, should ALWAYS be Federally supported.

I am sure Rick Perry agrees with you about the Texas-Oklahoma funding put into the Heartland Flyer!

RE:

I don't like Texas, and more so I don't like Texans.

I doubt if many Texans give a hoot.

I certainly don't.

 

[VentureForth]

What about federal support for aviation and highways? Kick them over to the states as well?

Well Ryan, if you want the Feds involved you could use the European scenario and have them maintain the track structure and have private operators run the trains. But that would be only for the portions Amtrak owns, like the NEC. The so called LD trains are running on private freight railroads tracks already. But there has been Fed and State support for some of the routes where passenger traffic is large enough to interfere with freight trains. I am just giving you a worst case scenario. Best case is it all just continues as is.

That did absolutely nothing to answer the questions I asked.

Aviation, not so much. Although they are looking at user fees to make an already expensive proposition even more so. For instance, for the last 20 years, they've been threatening to charge private pilots the same as corporate jets and commercial airliners if they use the air traffic control system - particularly in instrument flight conditions.

The highways are already a hodgepodge of State and Federal funding. For the most part, only roads that are designated as "US-xx" or "I-xx" are Federally funded with the rest of the vast network funded by the municipality/county and State, with occasional earmark federal allocation when appropriated. Even so, even Interstate highways are not always fully funded by the Feds. Look at I-95. Georgia, for the most part is 3-4 lanes in each direction for all 120 miles or so of it. Same road in South Carolina, though, is almost entirely 2 lanes in each direction. Same traffic flow, bottle necked. Same Federal input, different level of State input.