The Legality of Scanners

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ReidTYK

Train Attendant
Joined
May 13, 2011
Messages
59
Location
Yellowknife, NWT, Canada
I'm contemplating getting a scanner for my next Amtrak trip, and I was wondering what the laws regarding their use are like. I know that each state has its own individual rules, but do any of them restrict using scanners to listen in to Amtrak conversations?
 
Well I would refer to our friend Dr. Google for individual state laws, I know many of us on this forum have scanners and use them throughout our trips. I have never heard of anyone having a problem regarding scanner usage.
 
I'm contemplating getting a scanner for my next Amtrak trip, and I was wondering what the laws regarding their use are like. I know that each state has its own individual rules, but do any of them restrict using scanners to listen in to Amtrak conversations?
Most laws focus on use of a scanner during the commission of a crime, or in a vehicle, or for listening to private conversations. None of this should apply to using one on a train. Use an earpiece or headphones while listening, and I can’t imagine that anybody would ever bother you about using one.
 
Scanners are available and used all over the place. Owning and using one is not illegal. Many scanner feeds even stream on the internet. However, I've read in the past that in some areas it may be illegal to repeat what you heard on a scanner. Then again, even in the latter case, I don't know the context of the law. Someone with more legal background in that area could probably clarify.

That said, don't worry about having one for your own personal use.

Two things:

1) Use headphones so that the scanner squawking doesn't bother other passengers.

2) Don't bug the conductors with "I heard _______ on the scanner, what does that mean?"
 
I agree. Don't bug anyone with the question of I heard this on the scanner, what does it mean? I 110% agree! Headphones are a must. But if your in a roomette or bedroom and have your door shut I think you'll be fine. That's what I do no complaints. Just the occasional conductor who stops by and says something about me listening in on the radio and thinks I'm a werido for doing it. :lol:
 
In general, so long as the transmission originates in and is received in the US and is not over a military band and is not encrypted for purposes of privacy (encoding for purposes of compression or signal integrity is fine) you're good to go. In order to run afoul of most scanner related laws you'd have to modify your commercially acquired scanner to allow it to even be capable of breaking the law. Some newer laws refer to mobile operation of a scanner as an illegal and actionable infraction but I don't think riding Amtrak is likely to fall within the intended target of people avoiding capture or otherwise preventing or interfering with active emergency operations and the like.

However, I have found my scanner to be one of the least used products I've ever carried on board a train. I could recommend so many other items long before I'd recommend bringing a scanner on board. Like a pair of portable binoculars for one.
 
You could ask on here about technical terms such as "What is a hotbox detector?" or "diverging approach?". I wouldn't ask the train crew. And I would never comment on what you hear in a way that could embarrass someone who is doing their job.
 
The telecommunications Act of 1996 made it illegal to listen to cell phone frequencies, some older scanners can so that. Other that that and to other mentioned above you are good to go.
 
The telecommunications Act of 1996 made it illegal to listen to cell phone frequencies, some older scanners can do that. Other that that and to other mentioned above you are good to go.
 
However, I have found my scanner to be one of the least used products I've ever carried on board a train. I could recommend so many other items long before I'd recommend bringing a scanner on board. Like a pair of portable binoculars for one.
I disagree. A scanner is one of the most important things I bring with me on a trip. Not only are you better informed than the OBS as to what is going on, you can also get weather info from the scanner when there are winter or summer storms in the area. You also can figure out easily where you are if you have a milepost map or timetable with you.

The action isn’t always exciting, but there are some interesting things that go on during a trip that most people don’t know about, such as the train going in to penalty stop mode because the engineer was speeding. Pretty interesting to have the dispatcher come on the frequency and ask the engineer why they went in to full stop and are now clogging up a mainline, waiting for the computer to allow them to proceed once the penalty expires. You find out all sorts of things, as to when you will be going in the hole, and for how long, and how much traffic is ahead or behind you.

It isn’t everybody’s cup of tea, but it is a lot of fun for those who are mildly interested.
 
You could ask on here about technical terms such as "What is a hotbox detector?" or "diverging approach?". I wouldn't ask the train crew. And I would never comment on what you hear in a way that could embarrass someone who is doing their job.
One of the best companions for a scanner are the Altmont Press Timetables for the Regions you are traveling in. These guides are LOADED with all kinds of great information, including timetables and maps for the various subs, radio (scanner) frequencies, locomotive rosters and signal aspects and indications information. On more than one occasion, I have been "caught" by a curious Conductor who ended up writing down the information so he or she could get one.

On my most recent trip, my GPS crapped out half way through but with the timetables and being able to read Mileposts and Control Points, I always knew where we were at and what was coming up.
 
Well I would refer to our friend Dr. Google for individual state laws, I know many of us on this forum have scanners and use them throughout our trips. I have never heard of anyone having a problem regarding scanner usage.
On our last trip, our SCA would routinely ask us if we had information (from the scanner) on various situations...
 
This excellent site goes into the specifics state by state regarding the usage of a scanner. Most of the rules in most states apply only to having your scanner in the car; a few apply even when walking.

On Amtrak you're unlikely to ever get into trouble, unless you're revealing what you’re hearing and/or bothering the crew about what you're hearing.
 
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From page linked by AlanB:

us_scanner_laws.gif



ON THE ABOVE MAP:

- Red indicates use illegal without an FCC license, or permission.

- Orange indicates legislation is being proposed, but use is currently legal.

- Green indicates use illegal in furtherance of a crime.

- Gray indicates no currently known legislation.
The page also includes details for the laws in states where restrictions exist, or appear to do so (it's surprising how vaguely worded some of the laws appear to be).
 
Ok, I have to ask...what's the story behind penalty stop mode?
If the train exceeds maximum allowed track speed continuously, the computer on the lead loco will full-stop the train as a “penalty”. This can also be automatically reported electronically to Amtrak or the host railroad.

So, in my situation, I was on #28 a few hours outside of SPK when the train went in to a rather abrupt full-stop. The conductor gets on the radio and asks the engineer if he is OK and if the train is OK. The engineer says everything is OK, but the loco is in penalty-stop because of overspeed. A few seconds later the BNSF dispatcher calls the train on the radio and says they have an indication they went in to uncommanded or emergency stop. The engineer does a little song and dance about how the speedometer is “not working properly” and keeps shooting up to 81 mph long enough to force a penalty stop. BNSF suggests they get moving as soon as they can and proceed at a lower speed. Engineer tells conductor to call ahead to the yard at SPK and tell them not to use the loco on #28 as the lead unit when they connect with #8 since the “speedometer is malfunctioning.” Hard to tell if the engineer’s excuse was legit. It probably was a malfunction, but you never know.

So my point is, the stop was abrupt enough that it woke me up, and I was able to turn on the scanner and instantly know what was going on. The same has held true in a number of situations….hard stops because of debris or people on the tracks or on the ROW…….HEP being lost because of loco issues………..dispatchers warning of delays ahead or conflicting traffic. Plus, the humor of the operating crew on the radio can be funny at times. My favorite is the defect detector in Montana that said we had “zero axles”, and all the jokes they made about that one, such as should they call the FAA and file a flight plan because we must be airborne, or whether they should call ahead and tell maintenance that they won’t need rails anymore to make it to Chicago.
 
I am surprised to learn that, by the letter of law, while I am contently listening to my scanner as we highball across Minnesota on the Builder, that the mere act of doing so is unlawful. Sounds like it's OK on the Silvers running through Florida, if only because the Attorney General rendered an interpretation of the current law.

Since I began using a scanner on my trips, I now cannot imagine not having one as I find it to be an interesting and helpful instrument. It's helped me understand the operational aspects of the railroad though that's a work in progress to be sure. And it's kept me informed throughout the myriad "adventures" that await us out there on the rails such as Montana jumpaboards, burning rail ties, transient+train+trestle races, Donner Pass blizzards, law enforcement boardings/arrests, and plenty of amusing bantor as some crews just have a great sense of humor. The list goes on...

But I have always been stealth and keep it all discreet. Not that I expect a Minnesota LEO that's walking the train to stop at my room and collar me for my scanner, but these patchy laws around Amtrak Country certainly reaffirm to me that discretion is a good idea. It would be interesting if a conductor told you that you were breaking state law if he noticed your scanner while passing through a state like Minnesota or Indiana. I doubt that would ever happen, but I'm not sure how I'd respond to that one. Tying into another topic, I think I'd invoke the use of my curtains until we hit a new state. :rolleyes:
 
some taking points to observe

A hams are exempt for the most part .

B my moms car radio is a "scanner " it does scan right ?

C "scanners" are a barn door to all kinds of intermod .

Door post receivers and no front end .

You can buy a $200 ham HT that is a better wide band RX then most hand held scanners ..

If you want to play the "definition game" get a Comm RX

Here

No where is is marked as a SCANNER .

The user guide agrees . keep it on your pocket and Volla .

Now you don't own a scanner ...

You own a comms instrument .

Peter
 
Peter's post above may explain why legal definitions in states where attempts have been made to ban or at least regulate the devices are often quite awkward and probably largely unenforceable.
 
some taking points to observe

A hams are exempt for the most part .

B my moms car radio is a "scanner " it does scan right ?

C "scanners" are a barn door to all kinds of intermod .

Door post receivers and no front end .

You can buy a $200 ham HT that is a better wide band RX then most hand held scanners ..

If you want to play the "definition game" get a Comm RX

Here

No where is is marked as a SCANNER .

The user guide agrees . keep it on your pocket and Volla .

Now you don't own a scanner ...

You own a comms instrument .

Peter
If you had actually looked at the laws, you would note that they don’t really say “scanner” anywhere. They state any radio equipment capable of receiving in the Public Safety bands.

HTs, portables, and other communication equipment that are intended for “wideband” reception all have intermod issues because they cannot be designed for a specific frequency range. Your statement about amateur HTs being better than a scanner is incorrect. Kenwood and Yaesu make some pretty lousy HTs and mobiles that are deaf outside of 2 meters or 440 MHz. They also lack a lot of scanning capabilities you could find in something like the Uniden BCT-15.
 
Peter's post above may explain why legal definitions in states where attempts have been made to ban or at least regulate the devices are often quite awkward and probably largely unenforceable.
Well unenforceable is a stretch but lets put it this way .I can make a VHF receiver from parts of transistor radio .

can you really stop a person form making one ? when all but a few parts you can get form radio shack( varactor and a NE602Mix er ) ???

And as my link shows you can get some darn small radios .

Oh Hell hide it in the guts of a Old Ipod ...

more so I have tweaked a old cap based $15 radio to pick up the local repeater . 147.090 . it would not be that hard to push it to the rail band .

Yes you will loose a ton of RX

but it goes to show that the law is useless

considering you can hear a scanner or RX off the web with a smartphone the law is a joke as it stands ..

{You cant have THE scanner IN the car . OK shure Il put it in the house and use a Phone or Skype or the like to patch it ! .... }

I set up at work a radio .. one at my moms house and one in a Friends house near the beach to let me have a edge for T hunting .worked wonders !

Peter
 
Ok, I have to ask...what's the story behind penalty stop mode?
If the train exceeds maximum allowed track speed continuously, the computer on the lead loco will full-stop the train as a "penalty". This can also be automatically reported electronically to Amtrak or the host railroad.

So, in my situation, I was on #28 a few hours outside of SPK when the train went in to a rather abrupt full-stop. The conductor gets on the radio and asks the engineer if he is OK and if the train is OK. The engineer says everything is OK, but the loco is in penalty-stop because of overspeed. A few seconds later the BNSF dispatcher calls the train on the radio and says they have an indication they went in to uncommanded or emergency stop. The engineer does a little song and dance about how the speedometer is "not working properly" and keeps shooting up to 81 mph long enough to force a penalty stop. BNSF suggests they get moving as soon as they can and proceed at a lower speed. Engineer tells conductor to call ahead to the yard at SPK and tell them not to use the loco on #28 as the lead unit when they connect with #8 since the "speedometer is malfunctioning." Hard to tell if the engineer's excuse was legit. It probably was a malfunction, but you never know.

So my point is, the stop was abrupt enough that it woke me up, and I was able to turn on the scanner and instantly know what was going on. The same has held true in a number of situations….hard stops because of debris or people on the tracks or on the ROW…….HEP being lost because of loco issues………..dispatchers warning of delays ahead or conflicting traffic. Plus, the humor of the operating crew on the radio can be funny at times. My favorite is the defect detector in Montana that said we had "zero axles", and all the jokes they made about that one, such as should they call the FAA and file a flight plan because we must be airborne, or whether they should call ahead and tell maintenance that they won't need rails anymore to make it to Chicago.
Thanks for the info. That is irritating (wouldn't an un-blockable warning signal do the same thing without potentially causing a backup on shared tracks?), but I'm glad to have that mystery solved.

As to Peter's point: I think you have two problems. The first is that technology is adaptable (hence the ability to make a scanner from parts). The second, and more fundamental, one is the ability to patch something through to a cell phone (or to integrate a cell phone setup into a car radio, etc.). At some point, laws either become unenforcable because of out-of-date definitions or unenforcable because they become overbroad in what they cover. Either case kills enforcability in a lot of cases.
 
A few weeks ago we rode the LSL from Cleveland to NYP. I had my scanner going in one ear at all times. Enjoyed the heck out of it.

The reason for our trip was to catch the Carnival Glory Cruise out of NYC to St. John, New Brunswick and Halifax, Nova Scotia. Never gave it much thought about having my digital trunking scanner in my backpack until embarking onto the ship. The security's x-ray scanner picked it out in my backpack and I was pulled aside. The Carnival Cruises Security member explained to me very politely that they don't like (read allow) passengers listening to the ship's business and confiscated the radio. I got the radio back with no problem at all when we arrived back in port.

As a side note, we got to see Via Rail's Ocean leave Halifax from the comfort of our verandah patio in port. Pretty cool looking train still running with the "Park" Observation car on the tail end.
 
some taking points to observe

A hams are exempt for the most part .

B my moms car radio is a "scanner " it does scan right ?

C "scanners" are a barn door to all kinds of intermod .

Door post receivers and no front end .

You can buy a $200 ham HT that is a better wide band RX then most hand held scanners ..

If you want to play the "definition game" get a Comm RX

Here

No where is is marked as a SCANNER .

The user guide agrees . keep it on your pocket and Volla .

Now you don't own a scanner ...

You own a comms instrument .

Peter
But you must resist the temptation to transmit (if you're not a licensed ham) or you would be breaking another law. I suppose it is okay to receive on a transceiver if you're unlicensed...
 
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