San Francisco - Los Angeles Night Train proposals

Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum

Help Support Amtrak Unlimited Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
From the article: "The train would stop at existing stations along the route, such as Santa Barbara, San Jose and San Luis Obispo. This would require agreements with stations’ owners, which vary by city."
While the station might be owned by someone other than Amtrak. Amtrak general own the platform at the station.
If the city or county owns & manages the station, they'll probably be reasonable. But if it's Amtrak...well, back in the '90s there was a short-lived weekend passenger service between Houston and Galveston called the Texas Limited (which operated over UP/ex-GH&H). They initially operated out of the Houston Amshack, but Amtrak got so greedy that they found it cheaper to build their own station a few miles west in The Heights (ex-MK&T trackage, now gone)!
Amtrak does not play well with others.

Galveston TX to Houston TX that a city pair that could use train service. DMU hourly or better.
 
If the city or county owns & manages the station, they'll probably be reasonable. But if it's Amtrak...well, back in the '90s there was a short-lived weekend passenger service between Houston and Galveston called the Texas Limited (which operated over UP/ex-GH&H). They initially operated out of the Houston Amshack, but Amtrak got so greedy that they found it cheaper to build their own station a few miles west in The Heights (ex-MK&T trackage, now gone)!
Doesn't UP, and before that didn't SP, own every aspect of Houston Station, except perhaps the staffing?

https://www.greatamericanstations.com/stations/houston-tx-hos/
 
You may be right today, but IIRC, in the past, “host railroads” would not entertain any proposals to run private trains over their railroad, and would divert all such, to arrange it thru Amtrak.
It might have been a legal requirement at one time for all so-called “member” railroads to only allow Amtrak to operate passenger trains on their lines, but that may have changed at some point…
I don't think it was ever a legal requirement that they couldn't work with somebody else. One case-in-point was Auto-Train; the other cases would be tourist stuff.
 
Doesn't UP, and before that didn't SP, own every aspect of Houston Station, except perhaps the staffing?

https://www.greatamericanstations.com/stations/houston-tx-hos/
Okay. I'm going by memory here from a story I heard over 20 years ago and I'm not certain what has changed in the meantime. But, as best as I can recall:
  • The station was, originally, owned by Southern Pacific.
  • The station was part of the portfolio of real estate which ended up under ATSF control following the failed Shouldn't Paint So Fast merger.
  • Amtrak was renting the station for a pittance. I want to say $100 a year, but that may not be right. Of course, at that rate the legal owner couldn't be bothered to do ANYTHING to keep it up and Amtrak had de facto carte blanche as to how it was run and managed.
  • When the Texas Limited started operation, Amtrak pinned all of the operating cost of the station...personnel, upkeep, everything...on the new guys. Plus a markup. Plus a 'just because they could.'
  • Texas Limited put up with it for a year or two, but got fed up at being treated like a cash cow and found a suitable spot near the old Katy tracks in the Heights (neighborhood about 2 miles west of Downtown) where they could build their own station.
  • Which they did, until the whole operation went belly up a year or two later.
  • That last (going belly up) was given extra impetus by Union Pacific downgrading the entire GH&H line to (IIRC) 35 mph top speed and removing the ABS block signaling. At that speed it was even slower than sitting out the Gulf Freeway.
  • It's theoretically possible that the situation could have been ameliorated by switching the route to the ATSF/BNSF line along Mykawa, which had and still does have signals and (much) higher speed limits. I'm attaching a GPS screen capture which I took passing through Alvin on a 2015 Galveston Railroad Museum excursion. However, the major investors in the Texas Limited had business and real estate interests in League City and I don't believe that the ATSF alternative was ever seriously considered.

  • IMG_20150919_100613.jpg
 
leasing random sleepers sounds like a bad idea. Even trying to find a semi standard fleet by buying older cars will be hard. Amtrak has old baggage cars that could be converted to a standard car or cars. While I get the idea behind avoiding coach cars, given the overnight buses fill up quite often at least 1 normally and 2-3 at peak times seems like a good idea.
I'd prefer the state just spin up an overnight train at the same time they add daytime trains.
 
leasing random sleepers sounds like a bad idea. Even trying to find a semi standard fleet by buying older cars will be hard. Amtrak has old baggage cars that could be converted to a standard car or cars. While I get the idea behind avoiding coach cars, given the overnight buses fill up quite often at least 1 normally and 2-3 at peak times seems like a good idea.
I'd prefer the state just spin up an overnight train at the same time they add daytime trains.
So, if they could overhaul the cars in question (and I don't know how viable it would be to do so), there is one standardized fleet out there to be had - the old LIRR commuter fleet. Basically, from what I recall from chatting with him on a trip, the guy who owns them was aiming to buy a railcar. He instead got 200.

Now, I don't know about the practicality of overhauling the old LIRR cars into a sleeper fleet. It's probably a non-starter for several reasons. But if I wanted to start something up with a need for, say, 20-40 of the same type of car, that's where I'd probably at least look.

Edit: The other possible fleet would be that equipment outside of St. Louis, perhaps? (IIRC one of the proposals for the Hoosier State was going to use a bunch of their stuff.)
 
leasing random sleepers sounds like a bad idea. Even trying to find a semi standard fleet by buying older cars will be hard. Amtrak has old baggage cars that could be converted to a standard car or cars. While I get the idea behind avoiding coach cars, given the overnight buses fill up quite often at least 1 normally and 2-3 at peak times seems like a good idea.
I'd prefer the state just spin up an overnight train at the same time they add daytime trains.
I think the folks at Corridor Rail are still trying to interest someone in their fleet of former Santa Fe Hi-Level cars for just such a venture.

While none of the Hi-Levels were built as sleepers, according to Wikipedia, Budd did have sleeper plans drawn up, so the cars would likely support a conversion-
Sleeping car proposal

Santa Fe considered equipping the Super Chief with Hi-Level sleeping cars, and Budd drafted a design for such a car in 1957. In this design there was an aisle on the lower level only, and set against one side instead of centerline. The lower level also contained six single bedrooms and a toilet. The upper level would have eight two-person "Vista Bedrooms" which spanned the width of the car. Access to these rooms would be from four sets of stairs from the lower level aside. Each Vista Bedroom would contain an individual toilet and two beds: one stacked above the bed in the single bedroom beneath, and one lengthwise over the aisle. Nothing came of this proposal.

It's entirely possible, given the age of the Hi-Levels, that they would not have to fully comply with current ADA regulations, which a start-up might find to be more cost-effective.
 
Just buy new.

Simple, the work involved to rebuild a baggage car or a coach to a sleeper. Is just not worth it. There going to need 12 to 15 cars.

Ok this group is short on funds. So while it could be done, the financial side is not there. That why there used old heritage equipment.

That said Siemens has show interest in leasing out passenger railcars.
 
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/11/business/economy/california-economy.html
(Sorry if this is behind a paywall, I think the headline tells it all, at least for this discussion.)

"California Economy is on edge after tech layoffs and studio cutbacks"

Under these conditions, even well-off people are going to think twice before paying for deluxe service, and those less well-off are going to be economizing like anything. Under those conditions, starting a new luxury service might not be the best idea. Including coaches and looking for revenue from intermediate stops seems like the way to go to make this venture work. Though I think that this service should be run by Amtrak California. I just don't see a once-a-day luxury train as being a profitable venture, nor does it provide much transportation utility for the people of California. A Night-Owl like train would be another matter.
 
"California Economy is on edge after tech layoffs and studio cutbacks"
I agree, bad timing.
Though I think that this service should be run by Amtrak California.
I agree.
A Night-Owl like train would be another matter.
I agree

How about a hybrid?
The state set up another train and a private company or Amtrak can bid on running the service. The contract will be for sleepers and a lounge with crew to staff. The state can split the engines and T/E staff into one contract, and the actual cars and OBS on another contract. It could be a zero bid contract if these or anyone else thinks the passenger will cover the cost.
 
Edit: The other possible fleet would be that equipment outside of St. Louis, perhaps? (IIRC one of the proposals for the Hoosier State was going to use a bunch of their stuff.)
Iowa Pacific got broken up a few years back and their stuff got spread wide.
I think the folks at Corridor Rail are still trying to interest someone in their fleet of former Santa Fe Hi-Level cars for just such a venture.

While none of the Hi-Levels were built as sleepers, according to Wikipedia, Budd did have sleeper plans drawn up, so the cars would likely support a conversion-
They'd love someone to want their fleet
That design is super strange, it seems based on that description there would be no way to walk though the train..

Just buy new.

Simple, the work involved to rebuild a baggage car or a coach to a sleeper. Is just not worth it. There going to need 12 to 15 cars.

Ok this group is short on funds. So while it could be done, the financial side is not there. That why there used old heritage equipment.

That said Siemens has show interest in leasing out passenger railcars.
Buying new sounds easy but that would be 5+ years out.
Last report from amtrack (Fall of 21) they had 50 baggage cars, 10 crew dorms, 5 dinner, 2 dinner grill.

If they still have those 10 crew dorms that could be a large existing sleeper fleet. If I'm reading right they were all 10-6

"California Economy is on edge after tech layoffs and studio cutbacks"
Its not, that is a super sensationalized headline. The market still likely exists for a premium overnight train.
 
"California Economy is on edge after tech layoffs and studio cutbacks"

Under these conditions, even well-off people are going to think twice before paying for deluxe service, and those less well-off are going to be economizing like anything. Under those conditions, starting a new luxury service might not be the best idea. Including coaches and looking for revenue from intermediate stops seems like the way to go to make this venture work. Though I think that this service should be run by Amtrak California. I just don't see a once-a-day luxury train as being a profitable venture, nor does it provide much transportation utility for the people of California. A Night-Owl like train would be another matter.
California's economy is gearing down a little bit but not enough to where it'll collapse demand for a night train that's running between two population centers of over seven million people each. There will be some demand regardless of the situation. Considering that spending a night in SFO or LA proper can run at least $200 at a mid-level hotel any time of the year, $300 for a single-occupancy overnight train isn't terrible pricing. I think $600 for two people in a roomette and $1000 for a bedroom will need to be tweaked though.

While Amtrak California should run the service, I'm not too concerned who actually does it. I think seated cars will be requested and perhaps necessary to make the economics work, even if I personally would not want to travel overnight sitting up.
 
California's economy is gearing down a little bit but not enough to where it'll collapse demand for a night train that's running between two population centers of over seven million people each. There will be some demand regardless of the situation. Considering that spending a night in SFO or LA proper can run at least $200 at a mid-level hotel any time of the year, $300 for a single-occupancy overnight train isn't terrible pricing. I think $600 for two people in a roomette and $1000 for a bedroom will need to be tweaked though.

While Amtrak California should run the service, I'm not too concerned who actually does it. I think seated cars will be requested and perhaps necessary to make the economics work, even if I personally would not want to travel overnight sitting up.
I think $300 for a roomette (for one) makes sense. The question is what the $600 product is vs the $1000 product.

@GDRRiley I was thinking of Corridor Capital (who have the Hi-Levels, among other stuff), not Iowa Pacific.
 
I think $300 for a roomette (for one) makes sense. The question is what the $600 product is vs the $1000 product.
I think the article mentioned $300 for one-person roomette, $600 for two-person roomette, $1000 for bedroom.

Personal opinion: If we took Superliners as an example with those classes, $300/$400-ish/$750 might be more in line. Coach would have to be under $100 until last-minute. But until we know what cars they would use it's going to be a stab in the dark on pricing.
 
Europe is seeing multiple private companies running night trains, but they benefit greatly from the availability to easily acquire/lease equipment. That simply isn't an option in North America. Heritage equipment just isn't going for any other than a tourist service for railfans.
New equipment is essential, but right now Siemens is the only vendor with a suitable product already FRA approved and they're very busy.
A "luxury service" is the wrong direction. Just focus on a comfortable overnight sleep with night caps, snacks, and continental breakfast available. Have a mix of reclining coach, capsule hotel style berths, and private compartments. Or lie-flat seating and private compartments.
 
This was already brought up in the thread entitled "The Return of the Lark". But I agree...there is a business case, but it doesn't seem quite as solid as it might once have been.

With all of the troubles in SF proper, I wonder if Oakland or Sacramento wouldn't make as much sense (or more) as an endpoint.
 
Europe is seeing multiple private companies running night trains, but they benefit greatly from the availability to easily acquire/lease equipment. That simply isn't an option in North America. Heritage equipment just isn't going for any other than a tourist service for railfans.
In Europe too, many of the private companies and even some of the state-owned railroads have been using second hand sleeper cars dating from the 1960s and 1970s. Some of it had previously been condemned for scrap and then saved at the last minute and then refurbished with varying degrees of success. ÖBB has done some rebuilds on 1980s day coaches and made them into sleeping cars. Availability of suitable equipment is the major barrier to service expansion right now. Besides the very recent stuff, there have been no major new orders for new equipment for almost 20 years now, largely due to it being assumed that night trains were on their way out. The railroads were caught totally unaware by the recent upsurge in popularity,

Second hand equipment is a good way to test the waters and assess appetite for new services. New equipment is only arriving at a trickle and lead times for ordering it are extremely long.
 
It has been some years since I took the Coast Daylight along this route with the "Pacific Parlour Car". I remember the ride as being pretty smooth, Any comments on the track condition today? I do recall the Souther Pacific, before the takeover by Union Pacific, had really let some of their roadbed slip badly.
 
Here is another aspirational attempt at an overnight service between San Francisco and Los Angeles, independent of Amtrak. The Business Case has not been spelled out anywhere near as crisply (or at all as far as I can tell) as we have gotten used to with Brightline...

https://travelnoire.com/luxury-overnight-train-san-francisco-los-angeles
From the article:

"The company’s plan is to design a luxurious train with five or six sleeper cars and a lounge area, adhering to the “Streamline Moderne” style, which encompasses Art Deco features and components from vintage streamliner railcars. The train will run from 10 p.m. to 8:30 a.m., with stops in Santa Barbara, San Jose, and San Luis Obispo. Ticket prices are estimated to range between $300 and $1000.

Where are they going to find "Steamline Moderne" sleeping cars that have "Art Deco features and components from vintage streamliner railcars?" New equipment would cost a lot of money, and, in any event, I can't imagine they'd need more than 15-20 sleeping cars total, which is kind of small of an order of new cars. That means they're going to be buying whatever used equipment is on the market. That might cost almost as much as new equipment, as the 65+ year old equipment has to be rehabilitated and refurbished to meet modern mainline operating standards. Also, as a quibble, streamliner cars from the 1950s would not be considered as "Art Deco" in style, but rather "mid-century modern." If there are any actual railcars with real "Art Deco" styling from the 1920s and 1930s, they should be in a museum, not running on a train with daily common-carrier service. And I hope they're not planning to find some antique E-units to power the train, while these would give the right style, they'd also give CARB a fit. On the other hand, maybe they could get Seimens to build some Chargers for them with E-unit shells.
 
I just don't see a once-a-day luxury train as being a profitable venture, nor does it provide much transportation utility for the people of California.
What seems to kill off most luxury trains is not the day-to-day viability but the decade-by-decade recessions. I'm not sure if it's because they don't save enough for a rainy day or if there is simply no way for such a product to survive an extended downturn. 🤷‍♂️
 
This was already brought up in the thread entitled "The Return of the Lark". But I agree...there is a business case, but it doesn't seem quite as solid as it might once have been.

With all of the troubles in SF proper, I wonder if Oakland or Sacramento wouldn't make as much sense (or more) as an endpoint.
Nowhere to really park the train for a long time in Oakland. I guess Emeryville is the next best location, plus it has the bus connections to SF proper. Sacramento was the final northern stop for the Spirit of California, so that is an option.

Direct to SF could be an issue once Caltrain electrifies the corridor, and especially if/when HSR starts running through. Would Caltrain allow them to run diesel under the wire, or are they going to be required to run a dual-mode loco?

Even better - would Caltrain even allow them to run San Jose - SF during peak morning commute? Would they have the slot available?
 
Back
Top