Third Rail Vs. Catenary Wires

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Andrew

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At some point, Amtrak is going to have to replace their Genesis Locomotives.

What are the arguments for and against converting to overhead Catenary Wires or maintaing 3rd Rail Shoes?
 
At some point, Amtrak is going to have to replace their Genesis Locomotives.

What are the arguments for and against converting to overhead Catenary Wires or maintaing 3rd Rail Shoes?
I would like to hear your opinion on what you think the pros and cons are. And then we can use that as seed information to enter into a discussion.
 
If the Electrified portion of the Empire Corridor was converted to overhead, not only would there be the expense of hanging Wire, but Metro North would have to upgrade all their equipment as well.
 
If the Electrified portion of the Empire Corridor was converted to overhead, not only would there be the expense of hanging Wire, but Metro North would have to upgrade all their equipment as well.
Well worth it... eventually.

Third rail needs to be renewed intermittently. Metro-North has to replace its fleet intermittently (and just bought new catenary-and-third-rail MUs for the New Haven Line).

AC catenary is more efficient at electricity distribution and allows for faster speeds and requires fewer substations and uses less metal and is cheaper to build and is consistent with the NEC and future HSR construction.

Third rail has two advantages: overhead clearance, and already being there. I do not consider the second point significant in the long run, though it should be considered when deciding *when* to convert the Hudson Line to overhead.

The UK is now planning to convert its entire mainline third rail system to overhead catenary bit by bit, as the third rail starts to require replacement. The US should be as wise.
 
So *when* we convert the Hudson Line, are we also converting the Harlem line and all of LIRR's trackage? Then we're going to demolish and rebuild the Grand Central trainshed to accommodate the extra height needed right? Then completely re-bore the Eastside Access Tunnels to accommodate catenary there right?
I don't think so! I'm pretty sure third rail around New York is here to stay for a while.
 
However, whether Amtrak gets OHE dual mode or Third Rail dual mode for Empire Service has nothing to do with whether the Empire corridor has third rail or OHE. Amtrak dual-modes run diesel on Empire Corridor. The electric part is only for access to Penn Station, and for that they could be either third rail (overruning) or OHE, since the Empire Connection upto CP Empire (roughly) is equipped with both.

My bet is no one will convert the Hudson Line for a long time to come. It will remain exactly as is, underrunning third rail from GCT to POU.

Also, East Side Access Tunnel has nothing to do with whatever is done to the MNRR part of the station. There is no rail connection between the ESA LIRR station and the old MNRR station. So LIRR is not at all affected by any changes to MNRR.

I agree that people talking of changing out the third rail for catenary around New York are in throws of fantasy. :) .
 
I agree that people talking of changing out the third rail for catenary around New York are in throws of fantasy. :) .
True. That's because New York is a pathetic city in decline which has no ability to plan for the future. This is evident in soooo many other failures of infrastructure planning in NYC that it's clear that no sensible improvement will be made, barring a really dramatic change in government.

As I say, *the UK is actually converting third rail to catenary on long intercity routes*. This is because they have some people in charge who can think further ahead than the next three months, which New York City lacks.

I stand by my technical assessment -- of course the third rail should eventually be replaced by catenary outside the tunnels. Yes, on LIRR too. My political assessment, however, is that nothing this sensible will be done before NYC sinks under the waves, which will probably happen in the next 100 years.
 
I rather fancy the idea of a Siemens-built Dual-Mode locomotive built on the ACS-64 platform as a replacement for the aging P-32 DCM's. Go with overhead catenary, eliminate the second cab and engineer a Diesel Prime Mover into the chassis. I know, I know... Not that easy! But Bombardier has been able to do it successfully using about the same real-estate as an ACS-64 chassis, so it surely could be done.

Also, make the design more flexible than what the P-32's have to work with. I've read that 3rd rail running for the Gennies is very limited in distance, and speed-restricted as this locomotive was not designed as a true "dual-mode" being able to perform equally under either power or diesel. Makes me think that the P-32's are really diesel road locomotives who were made to have 3rd rail capability as an afterthought. If you made a dual-mode replacement both fully at home beneath wires or running on diesel, it really simplifies things. Just think... Regionals running south of WAS no longer need to perform an engine swap. Just pull into the station and switch modes with the push of the button.
 
1. When is Amtrak planning on replacing the Genesis Locomotive?

2. Are companies researching new types of Dual-Mode (or Dual Power) Locomotives?
 
I've rather a dual mode diesel with a pantograph just.simply I don't like the gaps in nyp. I've gapped about twice with a P32, atleast with catnary power you.have continuous power
 
1. When is Amtrak planning on replacing the Genesis Locomotive?

2. Are companies researching new types of Dual-Mode (or Dual Power) Locomotives?
1. You would have ask Amtrak - and they don't know. It depends on funding, available technology when and if there is funding, etc

2. You, or any of us, would have to ask the "companies" what they are researching. And they won't answer. We could speculate. Anybody with real good tech quals could speculate. Some of us do speculate sometimes, based on what is available now, what is tech possible -- etc. But what "companies" are researching changes all the time, depending on where their managers see profit. Most of us like to guess what might happen. Nobody knows.
 
I've rather a dual mode diesel with a pantograph just.simply I don't like the gaps in nyp. I've gapped about twice with a P32, atleast with catnary power you.have continuous power
Just ride the LIRR; they always warn you about the gap. :lol: :lol:
 
NJT and Montreal's AMT Commuter Rail already run pure dual-modes (they can run equally under both power) with pantographs the Bombardier ALP-45DPs. They're not the most reliable locomotives, with blow-ups and break downs although extremely modern (someone I know who's been inside one called the inside like the 'starship enterprise'). The other big issue with them is that the pantograph can only be raised or lowered when the locomotive is stationary not on the fly as is done with the P32AC-DMs in the Empire Connection. Although there isn't regularly scheduled NJT service into Penn that requires dual-modes, NJT has operated them into been on the Midtown Direct Morristown Line for at least one weekend when work required turning off the catenary along the Morristown Line.

If you want to see the trains in action with pantographs going up and down I have some photos on my Newark-Broad Street section that includes the pantographs raising and lowering.

I was also once on an Empire Service train that shorted out as we entered Penn Station, we luckily had already gotten to the end of a platform and simply had to leave via the front door of the train, when I got home and checked Amtrak Statuses of the Empire Service trains behind us they weren't so lucky (again a link to my blog).

Edit: Typed this up as I was falling asleep last night, an embarrassment, so edited.
 
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subway nut I didnt know you couldn't change modes on the fly, really dont make any sense to stop change over and go. That kinda wastes time
 
In Europe you may order a Electric motor (locomotive) from any of the players with a Diesel engine for the last mile.

Bombardier ALP-45DPs are the only unit that is designed for main line running in both modes. They might be have some weight and track issues.

In France you can ride Multi-Unit commuter cars that are Multi Voltage and Multi mode. It been noted that these cars are not getting marketed outside of France.

If you ask for it, someone will build it.

I personal would like to see Overhead wires for Albany to NYP, but have not hear of anyone (Amtrak or NYDot) looking into this.
 
It is not clear whether the changeover thing on the 45s is an inherent limitation of the engine or just an NJT operating procedure. In any case through the teething trouble phase they have had some problems with mode changeover, which may be reason that as an operating procedure at least for now they do not allow it on the fly. But really I don't know if it is a fundamental limitation of the engine.

There are currently no plans to electrify to Albany.

One of the alternatives for HSR being studied in the Empire Corridor HSR EIS is fully electrified 125mph or higher options using new ROW in many places. If that ever comes to pass of course there will be electrification to go with it. But absent that it will be very hard to justify electrification for just 15/20 trains per day in each direction.
 
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Am not advocating anything, but might not it be seen as an advantage of overhead that workers (and even trespassers) can walk around and move equipment without a lethal hazard being on the ground?
 
The reason that there isn't a third rail in Connecticut (and one of the reasons why the New Haven R.R. pioneered catenary wire back in the early 1910s) is because the state of Connecticut's legislature passed a law banning third rail in 1905 unless properly protected (this link clarified the year for me).

Other stories I've heard is that Connecticut was worried about cows and other livestock getting electrocuted!
 
Cows have always been a big worry. :) The Texans thought that their cows would start having nervous breakdown and start producing cheese directly instead of milk, if they were subjected to the terrible noise and vibrations from the proposed HSR trains passing by too. :)

Of course the Connecticut worry actually has some basis in facts unlike the Texas one.
 
It is not clear whether the changeover thing on the 45s is an inherent limitation of the engine or just an NJT operating procedure. In any case through the teething trouble phase they have had some problems with mode changeover, which may be reason that as an operating procedure at least for now they do not allow it on the fly. But really I don't know if it is a fundamental limitation of the engine.
From an equipment standpoint, there is no reason that changing modes on the fly would be a problem; ie, it is completely possible (just make sure the train is on level track, rolling at a moderate pace, and with throttle and brake in idle / release before initiating the mode change). From my understanding, the main case against changing modes on the fly is the potential to snag and drag down the catenary, which is a major issue, considering the repercussions of a downed wire.
 
They say that New York is the city that never sleeps. Maybe if they got some sleep, they would become alert enough to do some far-sighted planning that permits third rail to be replaced with catenary.
 
I don't think New York city has the jurisdiction to permit or not the replacement of third rail by catenary or vice versa.

It is all a question of money and even there it is not New York City's jurisdiction since MTA is not not part of New York City jurisdiction. It is a State organization.
 
Cows have always been a big worry. :) The Texans thought that their cows would start having nervous breakdown and start producing cheese directly instead of milk, if they were subjected to the terrible noise and vibrations from the proposed HSR trains passing by too. :)

Of course the Connecticut worry actually has some basis in facts unlike the Texas one.
That song is also being sung in California. There is something about crops will not grow either.

Maybe if some of these people would actually get out and ride the trains that are already running they would see how silly that is. Riding on the San Joaquin trains you go past fields full of cattle that do not bother to even look up as you go by, horn blowing for the crossing and all.
 
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