TSA baggage inspections starting at NY State Amtrak stations

[PRR 60]

...It's not just one flimsy door away from the passengers like it is on an airliner.

Not so flimsy anymore. Looks more like a bank vault door today, and the strengthening retrofits cost a bundle.
I think this whole thing is much to do about nothing. The TSA is not going to intrude on rail travel. They are only going to exercise a right they already have. Inflicting terror does not require a high body count. Simply making people fear common daily tasks will do the trick. Unpredictable random inspections is a tool to prevent that. Certainly it is not a total assurance of safety, but it is something.

Maybe I have been lucky, but airport inspections are really no big deal. Once prepped for them, you pretty much walk through. The biggest delays are caused by people who have no clue and take forever at the belt to get stuff off, fumble with the laptop, and then set the detector off anyway. The one time I was SSSS'd (a last minute, one-way trip required, I might add, by problems with Amtrak), it was non-intrusive, reasonably fast, and courteously conducted. It took all of 10 minutes and I was not the least bit insulted or disrespected.

One person's opinion.

 

[amymaree]

no reason to terrorize a train but seems to be a easy way to transport and move about the country. transporting by passenger rail is not watched closely by anyone so are you truly safe on a train just because the person is not interested in the train but moving the items to where they are needed. just a little question to see others opinions...

note: i think way too much about stuff, but since this is interesting to me i thought to share it with you all.

 

[1702]

The men and women of our military are losing lives, limbs, and sanity in Iraq and Afghanistan. Other than their families, no one in this country has been asked to make any sort of meaningful sacrifice since that whole mess began.

How about letting the TSA (and other agents of our national security) do their thing and stop bitching and moaning about it? Considering the trauma this country suffered with the events of 9/11, any "inconveniences" we've had since are really minor, as the government's response could have been much more intrusive into our daily lives.

If you do decide to stop whining and second-guessing, consider that your miniscule contribution to a situation that others are paying far more dearly for.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

As an honorably discharged Vietnam-era Veteran of the Armed Forces of the United States of America, I SERVED. I was overseas on active duty as a servicemember during that conflict. So, I suspect, were quite a number of other members of this Board. Don't talk down to me about that. When my country called, I SERVED. I EARNED my right to talk about it. The issue is not whether there are some inconveniences. My issue is the complete lack of any cost-benefit analysis, and the fact that there are risks out there to our transportation system, as I set forth earlier, and as I quoted a number of other specific sources, that are NOT being addressed, that SHOULD be addressed, and which are a much larger threat, with much larger potential consequences, than Amtrak passengers.

There has been a great deal coming from this administration to the effect that to question anything they say is unpatriotic. Horsefeathers! The right to question our government, which is the right to political speech, is one of the things every single servicemember, from 1776 on to the present day, has fought for, and is still one of the things our servicemembers are fighting for right now. Our Constitution, and the Bill of Rights attached to it, are a sacred trust, and we do not dare let anybody, regardless of his or her position, threaten that.

 

[Guest_Yerry_*]

Dismissing possibilities as miniscule, unlikely, unknown-to-others or uninteresting is hardly proof that there isn't a problem.

It isn't too tough to get into a locomotive from the passenger cars, even with a P42 facing cab-rear. Thinking up a specific scenario made me realize just exactly why this is being looked into on the Empire Corridor. That's all I'll say there.

IIRC, right after the huge Spain trains bombings, there was a news animnation that showed an older coach retrofitted with metal detectors and explosimeters. Placed at the rear end, all passengers at unmanned or unequipped/unmonitored stations would enter through this car, get checked out, and then walk forward to their seat. SO, it isn't an impossible situation to manage.

Unless, of course, it's handled by the same Chicago people I saw a few months ago who rolled handicapped pax out on the platform and made them stay out in the cold for almost an hour before the on-train people let them board.

 

[AlanB]

It isn't too tough to get into a locomotive from the passenger cars, even with a P42 facing cab-rear. Thinking up a specific scenario made me realize just exactly why this is being looked into on the Empire Corridor. That's all I'll say there.

On the Empire service it is quite easy to get into the engine from the passenger cars. That's probably one reason why the they try to put the business class car up against the engine, since access to that car is a bit more controlled. Especially on trains that still have a cafe attendant to staff the car.

But reaching the engines on many of the long distance trains while moving is much harder, if not life threatening to make any attempt.

But it's all rather academic anyhow, since even if you can reach the cab, there really isn't much you can do anyhow. You are still at the mercy of the guy in the little control room who controls the signals and throws the switches. And unlike an airplane where the President had to consider ordering it shot down out of the skies, it's much easier to derail and/or reroute a threatening train.

 

[AmtrakCrescent20]

It isn't too tough to get into a locomotive from the passenger cars, even with a P42 facing cab-rear. Thinking up a specific scenario made me realize just exactly why this is being looked into on the Empire Corridor. That's all I'll say there.

On the Empire service it is quite easy to get into the engine from the passenger cars. That's probably one reason why the they try to put the business class car up against the engine, since access to that car is a bit more controlled. Especially on trains that still have a cafe attendant to staff the car.

But reaching the engines on many of the long distance trains while moving is much harder, if not life threatening to make any attempt.

Would you do that by going from the front car's door into the small door on the rear of the P42? Or is it impossible to walk from the back door to the cab inside the locomotive on the P42s? Would it be harder on long distnace trains because of the baggage car or something else?

 

[AlanB]

Would you do that by going from the front car's door into the small door on the rear of the P42? Or is it impossible to walk from the back door to the cab inside the locomotive on the P42s? Would it be harder on long distnace trains because of the baggage car or something else?

It would be harder on the LD's since most run with two engines back to back, rather than elephant style. That leaves you facing the nose cone on a P42 from the front most car of the train. There is no door at the front of the P40, or P42 engines. Of course even if they are running elephant style, you'd still find yourself trying to leap from the side door of of the cab on the rear engine to the back of the engine ahead of you.

Now I suppose that one could climb to the top of the passenger car, and then leap onto the top of the engine, but that like I said would be a life threatening manuever. Between the leap itself, the giant fans, the leap from engine #2 to engine #1, and then sliding down the side of the engine into the cab or sliding down the rear of the lead engine to reach the door. All of which would be enherantly dangerous and one wrong move would mean the end for the person trying.

But again, even if one does pull any of the above off, the question remains for what purpose? :unsure: You are still stuck on the tracks and must follow them. In some areas, not only can they drop a switch on you, then can shut you down with the cab signals from a remote location. Any conductor noticing that he doesn't have normal communication with the engineer would pull the emergency cord. And if you try to take out the conductor, I suspect that people would notice and that someone would try to pull the E-cord themselves.

It's not like an airplane where a passenger has zero control.

 

[Everydaymatters]

I believe the bigger targets, where they are private corporations, have already taken measures to protect their buildings. I know for a fact that one very tall building in Chicago is almost impossible to enter through their truck entrance. After 9/11, this same building was being "protected" by CPD officers sitting in squad cars 24/7 with M16's, which would have been totally ineffective.

As far as government buildings, I haven't been in Washington for a couple of years, but the last time I was there, those concrete flower pots were all over the place.

 

[mikemorris]

Curious timing. I was at the Newark Airport rail station last week and there was a table staffed with TSA people. That station has both Amtrak and Commuter Rail stopping. Checking plane passengers there is obviously pointless as you aren't even in the airport yet, so clearly they were inspecting bags.

The TSA guys were talking to each other, station had only a handful of people in it at 8:00 AM (its never that busy anyway). First time I've seen them there but probably not the last.

I suppose they could have ben inspecting bags of people getting OFF the trains before they could head inside and blow up Newark Airport, but if that's the case then a shuttle bus makes more sense.

Mike

 

[Guest_Yerry_*]

Union safety clauses in their General Contract require an extra access point on full-width locomotives. There's a front door on the P42's; I've seen it-- in fact, a picture of someone exiting via one was posted here about a year ago. If some chubby engineer in his 50's can use it (it involves an unfolding hand/footrail and a very unweildy ladder), anyone can. There's no exterior latch to it, but there's plenty of info out there on how to get in, thanks for emergency preparedness preparations.

And there's no rule that says you have to try to get in while the train's moving.

There's only so much a CTC Dispatcher can do. It's a traffic control system, not a remote-control system. Plus, how willing will a Dispatcher be to deliberately put a fully loaded train into the dirt? Plus, there's the factor of timing-- something happening fast and at the last moment, and how much reaction time is left to do something about it?

And, on a multiple-loco train, is it necessary to be in the front unit to raise havoc? My GE & EMD manuals indicate "no".

MANY years ago I remember a security agent for El Al, The Israeili national airline, speaking on network news, pointing out security flaws in the US' airlines. It was a list the length of my arm. One thing I remember most was his mentioning, "Ther scenarios you people consider unlikely, nonexistant or worse, we deal with on a regular basis. One day, your running airports with your heads in the sand will result in tragedy."

 

[AlanB]

Union safety clauses in their General Contract require an extra access point on full-width locomotives. There's a front door on the P42's; I've seen it-- in fact, a picture of someone exiting via one was posted here about a year ago. If some chubby engineer in his 50's can use it (it involves an unfolding hand/footrail and a very unweildy ladder), anyone can. There's no exterior latch to it, but there's plenty of info out there on how to get in, thanks for emergency preparedness preparations.

Are you sure that's not the P32 AC-DM which has no rear door, and therefore no extra access point? I believe that I remember reading a post about how they put in a special door on the front of those locos.

Whereas the P40's and P42's have a rear door, and therefore an extra access point.

And there's no rule that says you have to try to get in while the train's moving.

Never said that there was a rule like that. In fact it would be a whole lot easier regardless of how many engines and whatever their orientation, to simply walk up there on the ground while the train is in a station.

There's only so much a CTC Dispatcher can do. It's a traffic control system, not a remote-control system. Plus, how willing will a Dispatcher be to deliberately put a fully loaded train into the dirt? Plus, there's the factor of timing-- something happening fast and at the last moment, and how much reaction time is left to do something about it?

Agreed that CTC can only do so much, but there are areas where Amtrak does run, where there are levels higher than CTC. And in today's world, I suspect that most dispatchers now have instructions on just what to do with a train no longer under the crew's control. And I'm sure that the idea of putting a train onto the ground 20 miles outside of a major city is a far more attractive choice to a dispatcher, than letting it run into a major city with whatever it's payload might be.

Yes, if there is minimal time left to deal with an incident, then there may be little that can be done. But boy the timing on the part of the terrorist would need to be spot on.

And, on a multiple-loco train, is it necessary to be in the front unit to raise havoc? My GE & EMD manuals indicate "no".

If one wants control of the train, then one pretty much needs to be up front to prevent the engineer from doing things to counter you. If all one wants is havoc, then there is no need to head for the engines in the first place. Much easier to leave a suitcase bomb in the cars, than it is to try and gain access to an engine just for creating havoc.

MANY years ago I remember a security agent for El Al, The Israeili national airline, speaking on network news, pointing out security flaws in the US' airlines. It was a list the length of my arm. One thing I remember most was his mentioning, "Ther scenarios you people consider unlikely, nonexistant or worse, we deal with on a regular basis. One day, your running airports with your heads in the sand will result in tragedy."

This is of course quite true. The Israeli's have been ahead of us for years on airline security, and despite all that we've done since 9/11, we are still far behind the level of security that one encounters when trying to fly El Al out of an airport in Israel.

 

[MrFSS]

This is of course quite true. The Israeli's have been ahead of us for years on airline security, and despite all that we've done since 9/11, we are still far behind the level of security that one encounters when trying to fly El Al out of an airport in Israel.

Indeed - I flew out of Israel in 1996. It took almost 3 hours for my wife and I to clear security - and that was before we even had gotten to the ticket check in point. That was another 30 minutes. Our flight was as 10:00 AM. They told us we needed to be at the airport by 5:00 AM. How would that sit with US passengers today?

 

[printman2000]

There's a front door on the P42's; I've seen it-- in fact, a picture of someone exiting via one was posted here about a year ago. If some chubby engineer in his 50's can use it (it involves an unfolding hand/footrail and a very unweildy ladder), anyone can. There's no exterior latch to it, but there's plenty of info out there on how to get in, thanks for emergency preparedness preparations.

I have looked and looked (at pictures) and found no front nose doors on a P42.

Here is a good one to look at...

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=181550

 

[AlanB]

There's a front door on the P42's; I've seen it-- in fact, a picture of someone exiting via one was posted here about a year ago. If some chubby engineer in his 50's can use it (it involves an unfolding hand/footrail and a very unweildy ladder), anyone can. There's no exterior latch to it, but there's plenty of info out there on how to get in, thanks for emergency preparedness preparations.

I have looked and looked (at pictures) and found no front nose doors on a P42.

Here is a good one to look at...

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=181550

On the other hand, here is a P32 AC-DM with a very visable door on the front of the loco. Note however that this is a Metro North owned engine and not an Amtrak engine. Having reviewed a few dozen photos of the Amtrak version, I cannot find any photos that show this modification for the Amtrak version of the P32 AC-DM. It would appear that this was only a Metro North modification to the design.

However, even if it does exist on the Amtrak model, I'm still not sure that I'd want to try leaping up from a coach facing that, trying to hang on long enough on that sloped nose cose to open that hatch, then crawl in to the hatch, all while the train is bouncing along at 80 MPH or better.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

On that picture of MTA 218, it looks like the hinges are on the bottom of that hatch, and it also looks like the latch mechanism must be on the inside with no means of opening it from the outside. So unless it was unlatched to start with, the presence of the hatch itself is irrelevant since you can't open it from outside (unless there's something there that I missed).

 

[rmgreenesq]

TSA bag inspections appear to have spread beyond New York. I dropped my folks off at Boston - Route 128 this morning to catch #95 to Washington. There were ten TSA agents there (for two elderly passengers) with their folding card tables, obstenibly there to keep us "safe".

I know what is coming next. This pilot program will be declared a great "success", it will be rolled out nationwide, and the TSA will stick a $10 ticket tax on each Amtrak ticket for their "service".

Sigh

Rick

 

[AmtrakWPK]

I think somebody in this administration misread what Will Rogers said. He said "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

They missed the "don't" part, so their version reads:

If it ain't broke, fix it. And bill the taxpayer for the repairs.

And calling it a success if there aren't any incidents is akin to setting in place 10,000 fire brigades at lakes, and then six months later saying that it was a huge success because while they were there, none of the lakes caught fire.

There haven't been any terrorist attacks on Amtrak, (and the likelihood of it, for reasons mentioned several times - the "payoff" in death and mayhem is just too low and it's not as grandstand-ish as flying an airplane into a large building, or detonating some hazmat tank cars or gasoline tankers, etc) just as there hasn't been too much of problem with water catching fire, but that won't stop them from claiming a success, unfortunately. I'm a lot more worried about those other things, or chemical plants, or maybe they would hijack a gas tanker truck and park it on a crossing just before a train was due, that sort of thing. And I don't care what kind of baggage inspections or frisking passengers or anything else - those things will NOT hinder what I'm talking about. All they will do is give some people a false sense of security, and let TSA say that they are "doing something". The additional loss in productivity hours to the American traveling public, and additional hassles, just is not justified by the level of risk. It's like they're saying that if traveling by train is not the same pain in the a** as flying, then it's not safe. Non Sequitur.