TSA Security Checks

[trainman74]

The hijacking history of US aircraft with nationality of hijackers:

[...]

2001: Arab (4)

"Arab" is not a nationality -- I believe that should be "Saudi Arabian."

 

[jis]

The hijacking history of US aircraft with nationality of hijackers:

[...]

2001: Arab (4)

"Arab" is not a nationality -- I believe that should be "Saudi Arabian."

Indeed! Fixed. I just copied that list in toto from a posting from airliners.net.

Incidentally, on the same note, people keep claiming that Israelis do "racial profiling" which is odd, since both the Muslim Semitics and Jewish Semitics are Semitic people, so the profiling does use factors, probably several, that are other than race. But in my experience they do more talking to the passengers than anything I have seen in the US. Actually I have had quite interesting philosophical discussions, though brief, with the security agents at Ben Gurion Airport, that come over and talk to you soon after you enter the airport.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

You sir have every right to sit and watch your loved ones and others murdered/raped etc while you sit/sat and did nothing.

Wow, emotional much?

Let me know when you've calmed down enough to discuss this in a more rational and less inflammatory manner.

 

[leemell]

You sir have every right to sit and watch your loved ones and others murdered/raped etc while you sit/sat and did nothing.

Wow, emotional much?

Let me know when you've calmed down enough to discuss this in a more rational and less inflammatory manner.

Actually, I thought it was a very rational statement about a situation and responses.

Now back AMTRAK and off of politics/guns.

 

[PRR 60]

You sir have every right to sit and watch your loved ones and others murdered/raped etc while you sit/sat and did nothing.

Wow, emotional much?

Let me know when you've calmed down enough to discuss this in a more rational and less inflammatory manner.

Actually, I thought it was a very rational statement about a situation and responses.

Now back AMTRAK and off of politics/guns.

Rational? Seriously?

 

[NAVYBLUE]

You sir have every right to sit and watch your loved ones and others murdered/raped etc while you sit/sat and did nothing.

Wow, emotional much?

Let me know when you've calmed down enough to discuss this in a more rational and less inflammatory manner.

Oh, I see. you, are going to determine if I am rational enough to talk about the issue. How can I ever thank you for being SO magnanimous. By the way I was very calm while writing it.

Emotional. No. You see. Most concealed permit holders know you have to hold your emotions in check. We know you have to use your brains to control the situation, walk away from the situation or terminate the situation.

And no, we are not going to talk about my feelings. As my Uncle Bob from Ft Worth told me many years ago, "Texas would be a great state if it wasn't for Austin and San Antonio" Or as a relative by marriage said, "Austin would be a great city if it wasn't surrounded by Texas" So i know where your feelings are coming from. Unfortunately for you I deal in facts. My degree is in Economics not Sociology.

So, I want you to show me FACTS where LEGALLY armed citizenry increases gun violence where the statistics show significantly that LEGALLY armed citizens are shooting LEGALLY armed citizens in significant numbers. I don't want to know how you feel. I don't want you to say you feel it will promote more violence. I don't want you to say you feel the armed citizenry is not trained enough. I want you to show with facts that there has been a SIGNIFICANT increase in legally armed one on one crime. I want facts. I want to hear facts from an unbiased source. That does not include the the Brady bunch or some liberal think tank or the Fraternal Order of Police. As in the movie Stripes, "just the facts, Jack"

For those coming late to the issue here is what I wrote so you don't have to go back and find it.

 

 

Research on violent crimes prevented by citizens per year with LEGALLY owned firearms and numbers

 

1.7 million Hart Research Associates 1996

 

1.5 million John Lott (U. of Florida) 1998

 

2.1 million Klerk/Gertz (NW Law School) 1999

 

2.0 million Clinton Justice Dept 1999

 

NONE of these researchers are conservative organizations or gun right organizations

 

You sir have every right to sit and watch your loved ones and others murdered/raped etc while you sit/sat and did nothing. I have the constitutional right to insure to the best extent possible that it NEVER happens to me or my family. EVERY weapons permit holder I've talked to (and myself) knows that if we have to kill someone to save our/family members, that it will affect our lives forever. Permit holders learn the 3 S's real early. Lessen your chances of ever having to use your weapon by NOT going to stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things.

 

Dept of Justice/FBI stats show as a PERCENTAGE of state population that the more restrictive a state is on issuing permits to LEGALLY allowed citizens, the higher the violent crime rate. The bluer the state the higher the PERCENTAGE is of violent crime and deaths per 100,000 people

 

Citizens kill (Legally) more felons per year than law enforcement personnel by a 9 to 1 ratio. Very few ever spend time in jail for convictions of use of deadly force. My brother is a former LEO and uncle is a retired Oklahoma Highway patrolman. Both have told me that there primary job is take the information AFTER the violent crime is committed and try to find the perpetrator/s. A police officer is not going to save you from being murdered if you are counting on that.

 

I remember when Arizona passed constitutional carry two years ago which allows all 21 year old or older LEGAL citizens to open carry a weapon. The local/national news was full of stories of blood in the streets. Never happened.

 

The most anti weapons people are usually the most ignorant and 99% of the media falls in that category. 99% of the media, 99% of the people on this forum and 99% of the general public can not tell me when if I asked them what is an ASSAULT rifle, what is a semi automatic rifle, what is a semi automatic pistol, what is a revolver and what is a double action revolver according to the BATF.

 

As I told the other gentleman, when the SHTF around you, you better hope a permit holder is nearby to maybe stop the murder/rape.

 

[leemell]

You sir have every right to sit and watch your loved ones and others murdered/raped etc while you sit/sat and did nothing.

Wow, emotional much?

Let me know when you've calmed down enough to discuss this in a more rational and less inflammatory manner.

Actually, I thought it was a very rational statement about a situation and responses.

Now back AMTRAK and off of politics/guns.

Rational? Seriously?

Yes sir. As a trained and sworn law enforcement officer for 20 years, I believe I can say that was a very rational response to a very stressful and difficult situation. Most people have no clue as to what do, or what is it like to face that.

BTW, NAVYBLUE's statistics are accurate and credible. As a trained system engineer, I have done my own research on the subject.

 

[PRR 60]

You sir have every right to sit and watch your loved ones and others murdered/raped etc while you sit/sat and did nothing.

Wow, emotional much?

Let me know when you've calmed down enough to discuss this in a more rational and less inflammatory manner.

Oh, I see. you, are going to determine if I am rational enough to talk about the issue. How can I ever thank you for being SO magnanimous. By the way I was very calm while writing it.

Emotional. No. You see. Most concealed permit holders know you have to hold your emotions in check. We know you have to use your brains to control the situation, walk away from the situation or terminate the situation.

And no, we are not going to talk about my feelings. As my Uncle Bob from Ft Worth told me many years ago, "Texas would be a great state if it wasn't for Austin and San Antonio" Or as a relative by marriage said, "Austin would be a great city if it wasn't surrounded by Texas" So i know where your feelings are coming from. Unfortunately for you I deal in facts. My degree is in Economics not Sociology.

So, I want you to show me FACTS where LEGALLY armed citizenry increases gun violence where the statistics show significantly that LEGALLY armed citizens are shooting LEGALLY armed citizens in significant numbers. I don't want to know how you feel. I don't want you to say you feel it will promote more violence. I don't want you to say you feel the armed citizenry is not trained enough. I want you to show with facts that there has been a SIGNIFICANT increase in legally armed one on one crime. I want facts. I want to hear facts from an unbiased source. That does not include the the Brady bunch or some liberal think tank or the Fraternal Order of Police. As in the movie Stripes, "just the facts, Jack"

For those coming late to the issue here is what I wrote so you don't have to go back and find it.

 

 

Research on violent crimes prevented by citizens per year with LEGALLY owned firearms and numbers

 

1.7 million Hart Research Associates 1996

 

1.5 million John Lott (U. of Florida) 1998

 

2.1 million Klerk/Gertz (NW Law School) 1999

 

2.0 million Clinton Justice Dept 1999

 

NONE of these researchers are conservative organizations or gun right organizations

 

You sir have every right to sit and watch your loved ones and others murdered/raped etc while you sit/sat and did nothing. I have the constitutional right to insure to the best extent possible that it NEVER happens to me or my family. EVERY weapons permit holder I've talked to (and myself) knows that if we have to kill someone to save our/family members, that it will affect our lives forever. Permit holders learn the 3 S's real early. Lessen your chances of ever having to use your weapon by NOT going to stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things.

 

Dept of Justice/FBI stats show as a PERCENTAGE of state population that the more restrictive a state is on issuing permits to LEGALLY allowed citizens, the higher the violent crime rate. The bluer the state the higher the PERCENTAGE is of violent crime and deaths per 100,000 people

 

Citizens kill (Legally) more felons per year than law enforcement personnel by a 9 to 1 ratio. Very few ever spend time in jail for convictions of use of deadly force. My brother is a former LEO and uncle is a retired Oklahoma Highway patrolman. Both have told me that there primary job is take the information AFTER the violent crime is committed and try to find the perpetrator/s. A police officer is not going to save you from being murdered if you are counting on that.

 

I remember when Arizona passed constitutional carry two years ago which allows all 21 year old or older LEGAL citizens to open carry a weapon. The local/national news was full of stories of blood in the streets. Never happened.

 

The most anti weapons people are usually the most ignorant and 99% of the media falls in that category. 99% of the media, 99% of the people on this forum and 99% of the general public can not tell me when if I asked them what is an ASSAULT rifle, what is a semi automatic rifle, what is a semi automatic pistol, what is a revolver and what is a double action revolver according to the BATF.

 

As I told the other gentleman, when the SHTF around you, you better hope a permit holder is nearby to maybe stop the murder/rape.

To suggest that those who don't agree with you don't care about their family is irrational and insulting. Too bad you can't understand that.

 

[leemell]

You sir have every right to sit and watch your loved ones and others murdered/raped etc while you sit/sat and did nothing.

Wow, emotional much?

Let me know when you've calmed down enough to discuss this in a more rational and less inflammatory manner.

Oh, I see. you, are going to determine if I am rational enough to talk about the issue. How can I ever thank you for being SO magnanimous. By the way I was very calm while writing it.

Emotional. No. You see. Most concealed permit holders know you have to hold your emotions in check. We know you have to use your brains to control the situation, walk away from the situation or terminate the situation.

And no, we are not going to talk about my feelings. As my Uncle Bob from Ft Worth told me many years ago, "Texas would be a great state if it wasn't for Austin and San Antonio" Or as a relative by marriage said, "Austin would be a great city if it wasn't surrounded by Texas" So i know where your feelings are coming from. Unfortunately for you I deal in facts. My degree is in Economics not Sociology.

So, I want you to show me FACTS where LEGALLY armed citizenry increases gun violence where the statistics show significantly that LEGALLY armed citizens are shooting LEGALLY armed citizens in significant numbers. I don't want to know how you feel. I don't want you to say you feel it will promote more violence. I don't want you to say you feel the armed citizenry is not trained enough. I want you to show with facts that there has been a SIGNIFICANT increase in legally armed one on one crime. I want facts. I want to hear facts from an unbiased source. That does not include the the Brady bunch or some liberal think tank or the Fraternal Order of Police. As in the movie Stripes, "just the facts, Jack"

For those coming late to the issue here is what I wrote so you don't have to go back and find it.

 

 

Research on violent crimes prevented by citizens per year with LEGALLY owned firearms and numbers

 

1.7 million Hart Research Associates 1996

 

1.5 million John Lott (U. of Florida) 1998

 

2.1 million Klerk/Gertz (NW Law School) 1999

 

2.0 million Clinton Justice Dept 1999

 

NONE of these researchers are conservative organizations or gun right organizations

 

You sir have every right to sit and watch your loved ones and others murdered/raped etc while you sit/sat and did nothing. I have the constitutional right to insure to the best extent possible that it NEVER happens to me or my family. EVERY weapons permit holder I've talked to (and myself) knows that if we have to kill someone to save our/family members, that it will affect our lives forever. Permit holders learn the 3 S's real early. Lessen your chances of ever having to use your weapon by NOT going to stupid places with stupid people to do stupid things.

 

Dept of Justice/FBI stats show as a PERCENTAGE of state population that the more restrictive a state is on issuing permits to LEGALLY allowed citizens, the higher the violent crime rate. The bluer the state the higher the PERCENTAGE is of violent crime and deaths per 100,000 people

 

Citizens kill (Legally) more felons per year than law enforcement personnel by a 9 to 1 ratio. Very few ever spend time in jail for convictions of use of deadly force. My brother is a former LEO and uncle is a retired Oklahoma Highway patrolman. Both have told me that there primary job is take the information AFTER the violent crime is committed and try to find the perpetrator/s. A police officer is not going to save you from being murdered if you are counting on that.

 

I remember when Arizona passed constitutional carry two years ago which allows all 21 year old or older LEGAL citizens to open carry a weapon. The local/national news was full of stories of blood in the streets. Never happened.

 

The most anti weapons people are usually the most ignorant and 99% of the media falls in that category. 99% of the media, 99% of the people on this forum and 99% of the general public can not tell me when if I asked them what is an ASSAULT rifle, what is a semi automatic rifle, what is a semi automatic pistol, what is a revolver and what is a double action revolver according to the BATF.

 

As I told the other gentleman, when the SHTF around you, you better hope a permit holder is nearby to maybe stop the murder/rape.

To suggest that those who don't agree with you don't care about their family is irrational and insulting. Too bad you can't understand that.

He didn't say that they did not care about their family, but that they could DO nothing but watch.

 

[amamba]

Can we return to the topic at hand? Which is that we are annoyed by the TSA presence at amtrak. Enough with the gun control - sounds like we will have to agree to disagree. FTR I agree with Texas Sunset.

 

[NAVYBLUE]

Can we return to the topic at hand? Which is that we are annoyed by the TSA presence at amtrak. Enough with the gun control - sounds like we will have to agree to disagree. FTR I agree with Texas Sunset.

So you "feel" the same as Texas Sunset does. Do YOU have any facts that his assessment about weapons are true or do you just have this "feeling"

Providence ? As in Rhode Island ? As in new Attorney General who has stopped the issuance of weapons permits to LEGAL residents reversing the precedent of (4) former Atty Gen's unless you can prove your life has been in danger like maybe you were killed or robbed or raped. How peachy.

I will stop talking about LEGAL possession of weapons when people stop making uneducated remarks based on their anti Legal weapon bias or what the New York Times/MSNBC told them.

You and your husband are welcome to come visit us friendly folks in Las Vegas and be assured us LEGAL weapon carriers will try our best to make sure you go home alive unlike your chances in Hartford, Boston, Newark, D.C.and other Northeast cities.

NAVYBLUE

PS: By the way, my MIL of 39 years lives near Hartford, I lived in PA for 20 years and did two NAVY tours in NYC so I know of what I speak.

 

[leemell]

Can we return to the topic at hand? Which is that we are annoyed by the TSA presence at amtrak. Enough with the gun control - sounds like we will have to agree to disagree. FTR I agree with Texas Sunset.

TSA's random searches without regard to age is a response to terrorist tactics. They have no compunction to using 6 month olds or 80 year olds. Just saying they they do not look like terrorists does not mean they are not. Most people have not dealt with this and do not understand that way of thinking. On the other hand, they are heavy handed in their execution. BTW, TSA cannot use the Israeli interview protocols as they would be sued on the basis of discrimination.

 

[tp49]

You sir have every right to sit and watch your loved ones and others murdered/raped etc while you sit/sat and did nothing.

Wow, emotional much?

Let me know when you've calmed down enough to discuss this in a more rational and less inflammatory manner.

Actually, I thought it was a very rational statement about a situation and responses.

Now back AMTRAK and off of politics/guns.

Rational? Seriously?

Yes sir. As a trained and sworn law enforcement officer for 20 years, I believe I can say that was a very rational response to a very stressful and difficult situation. Most people have no clue as to what do, or what is it like to face that.

BTW, NAVYBLUE's statistics are accurate and credible. As a trained system engineer, I have done my own research on the subject.

The statistics would have more credibility if they were more recent than 1996-1999. Last time I checked it was 2011.

 

[NAVYBLUE]

You sir have every right to sit and watch your loved ones and others murdered/raped etc while you sit/sat and did nothing.

Wow, emotional much?

Let me know when you've calmed down enough to discuss this in a more rational and less inflammatory manner.

Actually, I thought it was a very rational statement about a situation and responses.

Now back AMTRAK and off of politics/guns.

Rational? Seriously?

Yes sir. As a trained and sworn law enforcement officer for 20 years, I believe I can say that was a very rational response to a very stressful and difficult situation. Most people have no clue as to what do, or what is it like to face that.

BTW, NAVYBLUE's statistics are accurate and credible. As a trained system engineer, I have done my own research on the subject.

The statistics would have more credibility if they were more recent than 1996-1999. Last time I checked it was 2011.

Come on now your a big boy. I KNOW you can do the research yourself. I can't do all the work for you. What, you think people quit defending themselves from 2000-2011. Want me to research the meaning of life for you while I'm at it. You have any term papers due you want me do while I at ? OK. OK. After I'm done building the (5) year water pipeline from Great Basin valley in central Nevada to Las Vegas, I'll get back with you with the 2000-2011 research, OK. Geesh buddy, you got time to post her e, you have time to do the research.

Also, if you ever visit Las Vegas I and my LEGAL permit holders will try to see you get back home to your family alive and well.

NAVYBLUE

 

[tp49]

You sir have every right to sit and watch your loved ones and others murdered/raped etc while you sit/sat and did nothing.

Wow, emotional much?

Let me know when you've calmed down enough to discuss this in a more rational and less inflammatory manner.

Actually, I thought it was a very rational statement about a situation and responses.

Now back AMTRAK and off of politics/guns.

Rational? Seriously?

Yes sir. As a trained and sworn law enforcement officer for 20 years, I believe I can say that was a very rational response to a very stressful and difficult situation. Most people have no clue as to what do, or what is it like to face that.

BTW, NAVYBLUE's statistics are accurate and credible. As a trained system engineer, I have done my own research on the subject.

The statistics would have more credibility if they were more recent than 1996-1999. Last time I checked it was 2011.

Come on now your a big boy. I KNOW you can do the research yourself. I can't do all the work for you. What, you think people quit defending themselves from 2000-2011. Want me to research the meaning of life for you while I'm at it. You have any term papers due you want me do while I at ? OK. OK. After I'm done building the (5) year water pipeline from Great Basin valley in central Nevada to Las Vegas, I'll get back with you with the 2000-2011 research, OK. Geesh buddy, you got time to post her e, you have time to do the research.

Also, if you ever visit Las Vegas I and my LEGAL permit holders will try to see you get back home to your family alive and well.

NAVYBLUE

I'm not the one making the argument. You are. The onus is on you to make a credible argument using relevant evidence. Your "evidence" is old. It does not account for the change in the rate of Part I offenses between 2000-2011. For someone who mentioned in another post that you have an Economics degree I would think that the training you received there would mandate that you find the most recent, relevant data available to make your argument. Since you fail to back up your point my prior comment stands.

 

[Everydaymatters]

TSA's random searches without regard to age is a response to terrorist tactics. They have no compunction to using 6 month olds or 80 year olds. Just saying they they do not look like terrorists does not mean they are not. Most people have not dealt with this and do not understand that way of thinking. On the other hand, they are heavy handed in their execution. BTW, TSA cannot use the Israeli interview protocols as they would be sued on the basis of discrimination.

I was wondering exactly what you mean by "heavy handed"? Are you referring to the ridiculous ones we see on the news, which, hopefully would be the exception and would result in dismissal or re-training at the least. Or are you referring to the normal, everyday search, which I myself have experienced.

Also,how would you, or anyone reading this, suggest they do their random searches?

 

[amamba]

Can we return to the topic at hand? Which is that we are annoyed by the TSA presence at amtrak. Enough with the gun control - sounds like we will have to agree to disagree. FTR I agree with Texas Sunset.

So you "feel" the same as Texas Sunset does. Do YOU have any facts that his assessment about weapons are true or do you just have this "feeling"

Providence ? As in Rhode Island ? As in new Attorney General who has stopped the issuance of weapons permits to LEGAL residents reversing the precedent of (4) former Atty Gen's unless you can prove your life has been in danger like maybe you were killed or robbed or raped. How peachy.

I will stop talking about LEGAL possession of weapons when people stop making uneducated remarks based on their anti Legal weapon bias or what the New York Times/MSNBC told them.

You and your husband are welcome to come visit us friendly folks in Las Vegas and be assured us LEGAL weapon carriers will try our best to make sure you go home alive unlike your chances in Hartford, Boston, Newark, D.C.and other Northeast cities.

NAVYBLUE

PS: By the way, my MIL of 39 years lives near Hartford, I lived in PA for 20 years and did two NAVY tours in NYC so I know of what I speak.

I never said anything about feelings. I said I agree. You used the word "feel" - not me.

Secondly, the beauty of this country is that we all live in different states, and the states are allowed to make their own reasonable regulations. I am not sure how regulations in Rhode Island affect you - if you don't like it, then don't come to visit and don't carry a concealed firearm. There are plenty of state regulations that I don't agree with in other states, but that is why I don't live in Texas. Or Kansas. Or Mississippi. And the supreme court has upheld that some restrictions on our constitutional rights are allowed - and that holds for gun control, voting, abortion, and other hot button topics.

I whole heartedly support the right of individuals in this country to possess firearms, I just don't think people need to bring them on the train.

 

[jis]

BTW, TSA cannot use the Israeli interview protocols as they would be sued on the basis of discrimination.

The other reason is the sheer logistics. Israelis have but two airports to attend to, Ben Gurion and Eilat. So than can afford a completely different level of training for the people involved in their security regime. US has a vast set of airports, and it may prove to be impractical to train the huge number of agents in the sort of interviews that the Israelis seem to carry out so effectively. Just the sheer number of agent stat would be needed to have a chat with everyone that enters an airport itself is mind-boggling. BTW, the initial chat they indulge in can hardly be called discriminatory on any basis.