TSA spreading its wings

[JoeBas]

For what it's worth, to date on AMTRAK I've had much more interaction with both CBP and local yokel cops than with TSA. The question is 1) with TSA trying to grown their bureaucratic empire, er, I mean, Keep America "Safe" from a threat that has yet to manifest itself, and 2) The recent replacement of Chief O'Connor, who told these TSA where to go (with the horse they rode in on) with a Chief branded from the "Anything for Security" complex so many of our "leaders" now espouse... are we going to see more and more (and equally stupid as the Great Savannah De-Training Frisking Fiasco) activity from TSA on the rails? All signs point to "yes". Unfortunately.

 

[George Harris]

To bring things back to trains, I think we have some people here with crosstie size chips on their shoulders.

 

[JoeBas]

Confucius Say "Most people with crosstie sized chips on their shoulders had them put there by bad Maintenance of Way".

 

[BCL]

And keep in mind that a "terry frisk" is only permitted insofar as to allow the officer to be confident of his safety. It is not a carte blanche for an extensive search. Probable Cause still applies for that (at least for now).

Not probable cause but reasonable suspicion. The standard is lower.

A cop needs probable cause to arrest or to seek a warrant, but only reasonable suspicion to detain and/or frisk.

He needs reasonable suspicion to stop and frisk. But he needs probable cause and/or a warrant for an extensive search.

A terry stop (stop and frisk) is only SUPPOSED to extend to convince the officer that you are not armed.

But it does mean uninvited physical contact, which is what I believe was outlined as "Strangers do not touch me, ever". I'm just saying there could be something totally innocent where reasonable suspicion is inferred, and it's all by the book and legal that a cop frisks someone.

Even if the intent is only to look for weapons, an incidental discovery of a drug package is then probable cause.

I mean - it's one thing to believe you have rights when it comes to being searched, but it's another to know what those rights and their limits are.

 

[JoeBas]

Oh absolutely. But to be fair, the orignial topic was on TSA, and on the fact that you can be doing something inherently unarticulably unsuspicious, and have some creep come along and insist that he has to feel you up to keep America safe.

Is there a time and place for physical searches? Absolutely. Is that time and place being trampled to death, particularly by this organization? Absolutely.

 

[jis]

The last (previous) page of discussion has been illuminating and educational at least for me. Hopefully we can keep this thread at this level of sanity. If we can it will remain open as I have been assured by a Moderator, who helped me reopen this thread. However, if we go back into the rant mode espousing extreme positions apparently based on emotion, rest assured this thread will get locked again as I have again been assured by a Moderator. So please guys (and gals), let us try to stay within bounds of reason. Thanks for your help and indulgence, and of course sharing of deep knowledge of the subject of 4th amendment and searches.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Thanks jis!

As I stated in the thread about this thread being locked, when the TSA was at the Essex Junction station 3 weeks ago, thoughts of the craziness at SAV came to mind, and I wondered how I would deal with the situation, if they decided to be stupid. A greater TSA presence at train stations seems to be in the works, so I think it is important to have an intelligent conversaton about what that means for all of us who ride Amtrak.

 

[rrdude]

I just love the fact, that was reported here I think, that if one chose to, one cud simply walk around the TSA line at the SAV Amtrak station.

Traveling alone, I think I'd have the balls to try that, with family or friends.....I'd prolly wimp out.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

I just love the fact, that was reported here I think, that if one chose to, one cud simply walk around the TSA line at the SAV Amtrak station. Traveling alone, I think I'd have the balls to try that, with family or friends.....I'd prolly wimp out.

EXACTLY. I thought of the option folks had of simply walking around TSA, which I too remeber reading about here. Mrs Crockett and I even talked about it - quietly - on our walk to the store across the street from the station.

 

[JoeBas]

You could walk around it... IF you hadn't checked any bags. You could just walk around the outside of the station and leave.

If you had checked bags, though, you had to go into the station to pick them up. And if you had to go into the station, you had to be "Screened"...

 

[the_traveler]

If you had checked bags, though, you had to go into the station to pick them up. And if you had to go into the station, you had to be "Screened"...

I didn't follow that thread that closely, but if I understand correctly you had to go into the station to PICK UP your checked bags - and were screened? That means you were screened AFTER getting off? :huh: That makes no sense at all!I see why people were upset!

 

[JoeBas]

Yes, you arrived at your destination, but you had to go into the station to pick up your checked bags, and to enter the station, you had to be screened, even if you just wanted to use the restroom before getting in your car to drive away.

Combine that with confusion about what was going on, and not knowing at the time that you could just walk right to your car and avoid the process entirely, and the intrusiveness of the searches (There were no scanners or anything, so EVERYONE got the "good hands" treatment), yes, people were justifiably irate.

People INCLUDING the head of the APD, who kicked TSA off the properly entirely for almost a week, and then grudgingly allowed them to return ONLY when escorted by APD.

Unfortunately, it seems like the new chief of the APD is cut much more from the "Anything for Safety" mold that's bankrupting our country (both financially and morally), having served a number of years as a senior law enforcement official in the DC area, and thus is IMO much less likely to tell people with no common sense (which TSA seems to attract like a magnet) where to go if and when they hold a repeat performance of their Savannah activity.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Ever notice that when it's Budget time that LE Agencies always announce New Threats and step up the Security Theater with the provision that if they just had More Staff, More Equipment and More Money everyone would be Safer? Just saying. <_<

 

[JoeBas]

The purpose of a bureaucracy is to expand.

 

[CelticWhisper]

So I'm going to try to recap what we've got here as specifically pertains to Amtrak:

-News article comes out reporting "TSA expanding beyond airports." Given that they've been infesting train depots sporadically since 2011 (Savannah) at the latest, this isn't news in and of itself.

--Does this perhaps mean that we should expect a marked increase in such activity in the future?

-Most of these actions are not the TSA clerks you see at airports, but rather their "elite" (ha!) poisonous-snake teams (VIPR) who, it has been stated, are actually sworn LEOs with federal law-enforcement training.

--This suggests they understand proper procedure for LEO actions and may be held to a higher standard of conduct and/or be liable for misconduct (i.e. acting like a TSA clerk).

-APD is always present wherever TSA poisonous-snake teams are active.

-Not in this thread, but as stated elsewhere by JoeBas, ClubAcela boarding doesn't get subjected to this crap.

--Also not in this thread, but the Chicago Metro Lounge is a nice place, which suggests to me that it's TSA-free.

-Signs point to Chief Hanson being more receptive to cooperation with DHS/TSA than Chief O'Connor was.

--Subordinates may be more of the O'Connor school of thought, at least going by impressions I got from talking to Dep. Chief Dugan. What this means for in-the-moment interaction with TSA and APD remains fuzzy. That makes me nervous.

-Poisonous-snake operatives need reasonable suspicion to detain and/or touch passengers. If I'm walking through a terminal and make a point to lumber along, looking either half-asleep or bored out of my skull, this should not give them any actionable suspicion on grounds of which to bother me.

--To clarify, there is a difference between these officers and the blue-uniformed clerks you find at the airport, who will bother anyone, anywhere for no good reason other than that they can.

-Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but blue-uniformed TSA clerks don't actually have any authority at all in a train station as there has been no declaration of a secure vs. insecure zone (e.g. airport terminal beyond the security-theater checkpoint). They can't tell me I can't board my train, can they? If they can, why? As I understand it, I can ignore them or call APD for assistance if they try to stop me, right? I realize APD may want to inspect my bags, and I'm okay with a quick, cursory inspection performed by APD officers. I won't have anything to do with TSA clerks - it's the reason I started taking Amtrak instead of flying.

Thanks for the answers so far.

 

[George Harris]

Ever notice that when it's Budget time that LE Agencies always announce New Threats and step up the Security Theater with the provision that if they just had More Staff, More Equipment and More Money everyone would be Safer? Just saying. <_<

It's not just law enforcement agencies. It is ALL government agencies. Also notice that when it is budget time congress goes "All the ways we could save money if the othere party would just go along with it" mode, and that usually their targets tend to be items that are a small fraction of 1% and hit something that does not affect their home turf?

For example of a highly visible but miniscule in total cost saving, notice that the Blue Angels have been grounded. I would suspect that their total cost per year would hardly reach that of one round trip across the country for the president. (For one of these trips it is not just the cost of the planes and the federal level folderol which is huge, but if you have ever been at the location he visits, you will see that the total disruption to everything in that area is simply unbelievable. It makes it very clear why post-Katrina GWB flew over the area but did not land. The last thing the area needed was to go through all the nonsense a presidential visit causes.)

Interesting contrast is what was done when the persident traveled by train in the years around WW2: The track was inspeced no earlier than the day before, all switches were spiked and a "sweep" train was run shortly before the presidential train, but not the same amount of time ahead of it on each trip. Chance are all bridges had someone or several someones either from the railroad's B&B department or the railroad's police force watching them as the train went by, but that was not said in what I read. There may or may not have been Army Air Force flights in the vicinity at the time. One thing to note: The cost of operating a special train was charged to the government, but the costs of ensuring the condition of the railroad was borne by the railroad.

Also to note, from a read in a Trains magazine for the time: At the end of Truman's term, his Secret Service protection ended, and he and Bess went down to Union Station and got in a space on an ordinary Pullman car to go to Kansas City.

 

[JoeBas]

So I'm going to try to recap what we've got here as specifically pertains to Amtrak:
-News article comes out reporting "TSA expanding beyond airports." Given that they've been infesting train depots sporadically since 2011 (Savannah) at the latest, this isn't news in and of itself.

--Does this perhaps mean that we should expect a marked increase in such activity in the future?

Perhaps... though as of now there's been nothing more than the "puff piece" stay scared my friends anecdotal reports in newspapers.

-Most of these actions are not the TSA clerks you see at airports, but rather their "elite" (ha!) poisonous-snake teams (VIPR) who, it has been stated, are actually sworn LEOs with federal law-enforcement training.--This suggests they understand proper procedure for LEO actions and may be held to a higher standard of conduct and/or be liable for misconduct (i.e. acting like a TSA clerk).

-APD is always present wherever TSA poisonous-snake teams are active.

Correct... VIPRs are much more likely to be just standing around doing nothing but looking tough, showing the flag, etc. They take their "V" much more seriously than the rest, because there's in reality very little P and R for them to do.

-Not in this thread, but as stated elsewhere by JoeBas, ClubAcela boarding doesn't get subjected to this crap.--Also not in this thread, but the Chicago Metro Lounge is a nice place, which suggests to me that it's TSA-free.

As with anything that has to do with TSA, YMMV... however I've never in all my days seen a TSA agent in either an Amtrak Lounge (including Metro Lounge in CHI and Magnolia Room in NOL), and as these lounges have escorted and/or direct boarding I've never had any direct interaction with any TSA agent (VIPR or otherwise) while riding the rails.

-Signs point to Chief Hanson being more receptive to cooperation with DHS/TSA than Chief O'Connor was.--Subordinates may be more of the O'Connor school of thought, at least going by impressions I got from talking to Dep. Chief Dugan. What this means for in-the-moment interaction with TSA and APD remains fuzzy. That makes me nervous.

Again, that may be assuming facts not in evidence... however the WMTA did not exactly have a sterling reputation of civil rights, especially following 9/11/01, and assuming that the same mentality from that organization is now at the head of the APD, it will take quite a bit of organizational intransigence for it not to seep down.

Then again, AMTK has always been a little bit "intransigent", so who knows.

-Poisonous-snake operatives need reasonable suspicion to detain and/or touch passengers. If I'm walking through a terminal and make a point to lumber along, looking either half-asleep or bored out of my skull, this should not give them any actionable suspicion on grounds of which to bother me.--To clarify, there is a difference between these officers and the blue-uniformed clerks you find at the airport, who will bother anyone, anywhere for no good reason other than that they can.

Correct, legally speaking they SHOULD have RAS (Reasonable, Articulable Suspicion) before touching you. But they can have their dog stiff all they want, and they can talk to you (you have the right not to respond, but I make it my policy to at least tell them that I don't engage in small talk with people who can arrest me for what I say).

-Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but blue-uniformed TSA clerks don't actually have any authority at all in a train station as there has been no declaration of a secure vs. insecure zone (e.g. airport terminal beyond the security-theater checkpoint). They can't tell me I can't board my train, can they? If they can, why? As I understand it, I can ignore them or call APD for assistance if they try to stop me, right? I realize APD may want to inspect my bags, and I'm okay with a quick, cursory inspection performed by APD officers. I won't have anything to do with TSA clerks - it's the reason I started taking Amtrak instead of flying.

Indeed not, however keep in mind that under current policy they are in constant company with APD, who DO have the authority to deny boarding and/or require presentation of ID or bag searches for boarding.

 

[amamba]

Yes, keep in mind that amtrak police do have the ability to prevent you from boarding your train if you decline a search.

 

[BCL]

Yes, keep in mind that amtrak police do have the ability to prevent you from boarding your train if you decline a search.

They're also real law enforcement with guns and badges that mean something.

That being said, the laws on what federal law enforcement can arrest for varies by the state. California is governened by Penal Code 830. Federal law enforcement isn't normally allowed to arrest for state crimes without the expressed consent of the primary law enforcement head of a particular jurisdiction. The only exception is for National Park Service rangers (I believe "law enforcement ranger" is implied) because that's specifically written into the law. This has become an issue because recently the El Dorado County Sheriff rescinded the authority of US Forest Service officers in his county to enforce state laws. There are allegations that they were getting ticket happy citing for barely going over the speed limit or for minor infractions.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=830-832.17
830.8. (a) Federal criminal investigators and law enforcement officers are not California peace officers, but may exercise the powers of arrest of a peace officer in any of the following circumstances:

(1) Any circumstances specified in Section 836 of this code or Section 5150 of the Welfare and Institutions Code for violations of state or local laws.

(2) When these investigators and law enforcement officers are engaged in the enforcement of federal criminal laws and exercise the arrest powers only incidental to the performance of these duties.

(3) When requested by a California law enforcement agency to be involved in a joint task force or criminal investigation.

(4) When probable cause exists to believe that a public offense that involves immediate danger to persons or property has just occurred or is being committed.

In all of these instances, the provisions of Section 847 shall apply. These investigators and law enforcement officers, prior to the exercise of these arrest powers, shall have been certified by their agency heads as having satisfied the training requirements of Section 832, or the equivalent thereof.

This subdivision does not apply to federal officers of the Bureau of Land Management or the United States Forest Service. These officers have no authority to enforce California statutes without the written consent of the sheriff or the chief of police in whose jurisdiction they are assigned.

(b) Duly authorized federal employees who comply with the training requirements set forth in Section 832 are peace officers when they are engaged in enforcing applicable state or local laws on property owned or possessed by the United States government, or on any street, sidewalk, or property adjacent thereto, and with the written consent of the sheriff or the chief of police, respectively, in whose jurisdiction the property is situated.

© National park rangers are not California peace officers but may exercise the powers of arrest of a peace officer as specified in Section 836 and the powers of a peace officer specified in Section 5150 of the Welfare and Institutions Code for violations of state or local laws provided these rangers are exercising the arrest powers incidental to the performance of their federal duties or providing or attempting to provide law enforcement services in response to a request initiated by California state park rangers to assist in preserving the peace and protecting state parks and other property for which California state park rangers are responsible. National park rangers, prior to the exercise of these arrest powers, shall have been certified by their agency heads as having satisfactorily completed the training requirements of Section 832.3, or the equivalent thereof.

(d) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, during a state of war emergency or a state of emergency, as defined in Section 8558 of the Government Code, federal criminal investigators and law enforcement officers who are assisting California law enforcement officers in carrying out emergency operations are not deemed California peace officers, but may exercise the powers of arrest of a peace officer as specified in Section 836 and the powers of a peace officer specified in Section 5150 of the Welfare and Institutions Code for violations of state or local laws. In these instances, the provisions of Section 847 of this code and of Section 8655 of the Government Code shall apply.

I'm not sure how it works for Amtrak Police. They travel across a lot of different jurisdictions, and I wouldn't be sure that they would have a memorandum of understanding with each and every jursidction that an officer might be in.

 

[George Harris]

Every railroad company of any size has had its own police force for many years. I would assume that the Amtrak police would be operating on the same basis. The definitely had police powers when enfocing laws on company property. What police powers they have otherwise I am not certain, but I think there are agreements with local and state jurisdictions. What is in these probably varies depending upon where you are.

 

[BCL]

Every railroad company of any size has had its own police force for many years. I would assume that the Amtrak police would be operating on the same basis. The definitely had police powers when enfocing laws on company property. What police powers they have otherwise I am not certain, but I think there are agreements with local and state jurisdictions. What is in these probably varies depending upon where you are.

Amtrak Police would be considered federal law enforcement I believe, since the establishing legislation is in federal law and they receive federal law enforcement training.

Railroad police powers are specified in CPC 830.33. The law says an officer is "commissioned by the Governor".

830.33. The following persons are peace officers whose authorityextends to any place in the state for the purpose of performing their

primary duty or when making an arrest pursuant to Section 836 as to

any public offense with respect to which there is immediate danger to

person or property, or of the escape of the perpetrator of that

offense, or pursuant to Section 8597 or 8598 of the Government Code.

Those peace officers may carry firearms only if authorized and under

terms and conditions specified by their employing agency.

(e) (1) Any railroad police officer commissioned by the Governor

pursuant to Section 8226 of the Public Utilities Code, if the primary

duty of the peace officer is the enforcement of the law in or about

properties owned, operated, or administered by the employing agency

or when performing necessary duties with respect to patrons,

employees, and properties of the employing agency.

 

[leemell]

The number of agencies with law enforcement powers in a give spot can be very confusing and complex. Just take the Burbank Airport Train Station. The Los Angeles County Sheriffs Department is contracted by Metrolink and the MTA to provide law enforcement services. Also the Burbank PD and Burbank Airport Police serves this station, The station is owned by Caltrans, hence the California Highway Patrol. Amtrak uses this station, Amtrak PD and TSA. Also, any sworn law enforcement officer in California can enforce the law anywhere in the state, in jurisdiction or not, where the law is broken in their presence. I'm quite sure that UP has their own PD. Just food for thought.

 

[Bob Dylan]

In Texas ALL Certified LE Officers have jurisdiction anywhere in the State and there are literally hundreds of LE Agencies!

Here in Austin (65% of the City Budget goes to Public Safety) we have the DPS (Highway Patrol Division/Texas Rangers)Inteligince Division/Investigations Division/Drug Enforcement Division etc), Game Wardens, State Capitol Police/University of Texas Police/Austin Community College Police/AISD School Police/Airport Police/Austin Police Department/Park Rangers/Travis County Sheriffs/Constables and Deputy Constables/DA Investigators and Police/Court Police/ all the Suburbs around here (about 20 different ones all have their own Police/Williamson County Sheriff/Hays County Sheriff/Bastrop County Sherriff and all of their assorted Constables, Deputies, School Districts and a Partridge in a Pear Tree!

And all the various Alphabet LE Agencies from the Feds! Boy do we feel Safe, not a single Crime is ever committed around here, it's Safe I tell you, Safe! :help:

 

[BCL]

The number of agencies with law enforcement powers in a give spot can be very confusing and complex. Just take the Burbank Airport Train Station. The Los Angeles County Sheriffs Department is contracted by Metrolink and the MTA to provide law enforcement services. Also the Burbank PD and Burbank Airport Police serves this station, The station is owned by Caltrans, hence the California Highway Patrol. Amtrak uses this station, Amtrak PD and TSA. Also, any sworn law enforcement officer in California can enforce the law anywhere in the state, in jurisdiction or not, where the law is broken in their presence. I'm quite sure that UP has their own PD. Just food for thought.

I've become aware of this. I understand that there are tons of MOUs written about who has what jurisdiction and which federal agencies are allowed to routinely enforce state laws. I've read the MOU between Berkeley Police and UC Police, and outside of their jurisdiction they're supposed to call in a violation to the other department unless it's considered an emergency or if they are requested to intervene. There was also a school district police dept that took an extremely broad view of their authority, including call jumping on residential burglary calls, as well as issuing traffic and parking citations off campus - apparently to bring in revenue with targets for how many cars to tow per day. They also did a lot of tows, and their release fees were considerably higher than the city or county fees.

http://www.sacbee.com/2011/11/04/v-wireless/4029671/vehicle-towing-by-twin-rivers.html

http://www.news10.net/news/local/article/160212/2/What-is-the-scope-of-the-Twin-Rivers-Police-Dept

Caltrain (operating from San Francisco) to Gilroy contracts their police services to the San Mateo County Sheriff's Dept, and they have six deputies assigned. What I've read about them is that they often end up talking down people considering suicide. They can't necessarily stop someone jumping in front of a train, but apparently along the tracks there are trees and some people have climbed them with the intent of dropping in front of a train. They work across the entire line, and once I heard of a weapons discharge in San Jose. Our own roadman1313 can talk about his transit agency, which contracts with two sheriff's departments; that must be really interesting since the bus routes go across several county lines. The following mentions the transbay lines, which can take them into San Francisco, San Mateo County, or Santa Clara County.

https://www.alamedacountysheriff.org/les_contracts.php

I work near the Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority headquarters in San Jose and have driven through their parking lot. They have a fenced in location where the Santa Clara County Sheriff's Dept cars attached to VTA are parked.

 

[George Harris]

In Texas ALL Certified LE Officers have jurisdiction anywhere in the State and there are literally hundreds of LE Agencies!
Here in Austin (65% of the City Budget goes to Public Safety) we have the DPS (Highway Patrol Division/Texas Rangers)Inteligince Division/Investigations Division/Drug Enforcement Division etc) State Capitol Police/University of Texas Police/Austin Community College Police/AISD School Police/Airport Police/Austin Police Department/Park Rangers/Travis County Sheriffs/Constables and Deputy Constables/DA Investigators and Police/Court Police/ all the Suburbs around here (about 20 different ones all have their own Police/Williamson County Sheriff/Hays County Sheriff/Bastrop County Sherriff and all of their assorted Constables, Deputies, School Districts and a Partridge in a Pear Tree!

And all the various Alphabet LE Agencies from the Feds! Boy do we feel Safe, not a single Crime is ever committed around here, it's Safe I tell you, Safe! :help:

Yea and verily. We lived in Texas for a couple of years. There is plenty of complexity in government agencies to deal with. When it came to election time, School District, City, and State/Federal races required us to go to three different places to vote. At this point I have forgotten where the county races were voted, but I do remember it took visiting three different locations to hit them all.

If you want to truly be owerwhelmed with police presence I don't think any place can beat the District of Columbia. DC police force, Capital police force, Secret service, Federal protective service, WMATA police, of course Amtrak police, and probably several others I can't think of right now.