Union Stations???

[AutoTrDvr]

This is what it looked like outside. The old Waiting Room area is the far building and the train shed area is the one with Fred Harvey on it.

This old picture of CUS in the "Customer Service" thread got me thinking :help:

I see on the station sign, "Pennsylvania RR' "Burlington (Northern)" "Alton" and "Milwaukee Road" What I don't see, is "Union Pacific!" It made me wonder if any of the "Union Stations" in the country actually had any association with the Union Pacific Railroad? Or, were they named "Union Station" for a different reason? It's clear that all the "Penn" stations were the PRR (NYP, BAL, PHL, etc.), How did Washington DC end up with a Union Station?

Just curious...

 

[PRR 60]

The name "Union Station" referred to the fact that the station was built for the use of a "union" of multiple railroads.

 

[AutoTrDvr]

The name "Union Station" referred to the fact that the station was built for the use of a "union" of multiple railroads.

Which, of course, makes perfect logical sense. I guess the PRR had a great deal of pull in NYC to get that station named NY Penn, as opposed to NY Union Station...Then again, there is also "Grand Central Station." Perhaps that was for the NY Central system (the LSL used to originate from Gr. Ctrl).?

 

[Jim G.]

The word union can mean "a combining or joining of things". The joining of all these different rail lines in Chicago and Washington could well be the reason they were named "Union Station".

 

[MrFSS]

I see on the station sign, "Pennsylvania RR' "Burlington (Northern)" "Alton" and "Milwaukee Road" What I don't see, is "Union Pacific!"

You don't see Union Pacific because the UP didn't go to Chicago. Only as far as Omaha and then it became Milwaukee Road. There were UP passenger cars on the train, but it was pulled by Milwaukee Road engines Sometimes you might see a UP engine come into Chicago, but it was Milwaukee Road track all the way from Omaha.

 

[AutoTrDvr]

The word union can mean "a combining or joining of things". The joining of all these different rail lines in Chicago and Washington could well be the reason they were named "Union Station".

I just wasn't certain if that particular context is what those founding fathers of rail were thinking.... Since we do have a number of stations in my area named "Penn," I thought perhaps the UP might have had a number of stations named "Union" in theirs. Although Wash, did seem a little "out of territory" for them.

 

[PRR 60]

The name "Union Station" referred to the fact that the station was built for the use of a "union" of multiple railroads.

Which, of course, makes perfect logical sense. I guess the PRR had a great deal of pull in NYC to get that station named NY Penn, as opposed to NY Union Station...

They didn't need pull. The PRR built and owned Pennsylvania Station New York. It was exclusively for the use of the PRR and the PRR-controlled LIRR. The New York, New Haven & Hartford also called at Penn with their portion of through trains between Washington and Boston.

 

[AutoTrDvr]

I see on the station sign, "Pennsylvania RR' "Burlington (Northern)" "Alton" and "Milwaukee Road" What I don't see, is "Union Pacific!"

You don't see Union Pacific because the UP didn't go to Chicago. Only as far as Omaha and then it became Milwaukee Road. There were UP passenger cars on the train, but it was pulled by Milwaukee Road engines Sometimes you might see a UP engine come into Chicago, but it was Milwaukee Road track all the way from Omaha.

Fair enough... Well, it would seem now that they have their foot squarely "in the door", having acquired the CNW. Albeit it is Metra running the Pax. service.

 

[AutoTrDvr]

The name "Union Station" referred to the fact that the station was built for the use of a "union" of multiple railroads.

Which, of course, makes perfect logical sense. I guess the PRR had a great deal of pull in NYC to get that station named NY Penn, as opposed to NY Union Station...

They didn't need pull. The PRR built and owned Pennsylvania Station New York. It was exclusively for the use of the PRR and the PRR-controlled LIRR. The New York, New Haven & Hartford also called at Penn with their portion of through trains between Washington and Boston.

Leaving Grand Central Station for all the "NY Central System" routes (e.g. LSL)?

 

[jis]

The name "Union Station" referred to the fact that the station was built for the use of a "union" of multiple railroads.

Which, of course, makes perfect logical sense. I guess the PRR had a great deal of pull in NYC to get that station named NY Penn, as opposed to NY Union Station...

They didn't need pull. The PRR built and owned Pennsylvania Station New York. It was exclusively for the use of the PRR and the PRR-controlled LIRR. The New York, New Haven & Hartford also called at Penn with their portion of through trains between Washington and Boston.

Leaving Grand Central Station for all the "NY Central System" routes (e.g. LSL)?

Grand Central was built and owned by the New York Central. By the time Amtrak LSL came about there was no NY Central or PRR. The original NYC LSL ceased to operate in 1956. Incidentally the current Grand Central Terminal is the second incarnation of a station at that location. The first one was on surface with an enormous arched train shed in the same league as London's Paddington or St. Pancras, which was replaced by the underground station.

BTW Penn Station was used by B&O via CNJ briefly during the war as I understand it. And then the Aldene Plan redirected CNJ commuter service into Penn Station Newark (precursor to today's NJT Raritan Valley Service), and also CNJ Bay Head trains (precursor to today's NJT Newark - Bay Head service), but they never made it all the way to New York Penn Station. Only the ex-PRR Bay Head service with engine change in South Amboy continued into NY Penn.

 

[PRR 60]

They didn't need pull. The PRR built and owned Pennsylvania Station New York. It was exclusively for the use of the PRR and the PRR-controlled LIRR. The New York, New Haven & Hartford also called at Penn with their portion of through trains between Washington and Boston.

Leaving Grand Central Station for all the "NY Central System" routes (e.g. LSL)?

Yes. The PRR's arch-rival, the New York Central owned Grand Central. The New Haven also called at Grand Central with their Boston to New York trains (only the though trains to Washington called at Pennsylvania Station).

Left on the outside looking in were the Erie, Lackawanna, Central RR of NJ (B&O and Reading), among others. They were stuck with terminating in New Jersey with ferry connections to Manhattan.

 

[AutoTrDvr]

They didn't need pull. The PRR built and owned Pennsylvania Station New York. It was exclusively for the use of the PRR and the PRR-controlled LIRR. The New York, New Haven & Hartford also called at Penn with their portion of through trains between Washington and Boston.

Leaving Grand Central Station for all the "NY Central System" routes (e.g. LSL)?

Yes. The PRR's arch-rival, the New York Central owned Grand Central. The New Haven also called at Grand Central with their Boston to New York trains (only the though trains to Washington called at Pennsylvania Station).

Left on the outside looking in were the Erie, Lackawanna, Central RR of NJ (B&O and Reading), among others. They were stuck with terminating in New Jersey with ferry connections to Manhattan.

Thus, Hoboken for Erie Lackawanna (actually DLW - Delaware, Lackawanna & Western - and the Erie, which I believe terminated in Jersey City originally before merging with DLW).

 

[jis]

They didn't need pull. The PRR built and owned Pennsylvania Station New York. It was exclusively for the use of the PRR and the PRR-controlled LIRR. The New York, New Haven & Hartford also called at Penn with their portion of through trains between Washington and Boston.

Leaving Grand Central Station for all the "NY Central System" routes (e.g. LSL)?

Yes. The PRR's arch-rival, the New York Central owned Grand Central. The New Haven also called at Grand Central with their Boston to New York trains (only the though trains to Washington called at Pennsylvania Station).

Left on the outside looking in were the Erie, Lackawanna, Central RR of NJ (B&O and Reading), among others. They were stuck with terminating in New Jersey with ferry connections to Manhattan.

Thus, Hoboken for Erie Lackawanna (actually DLW - Delaware, Lackawanna & Western - and the Erie, which I believe terminated in Jersey City originally before merging with DLW).

Erie did not go to Jersey City. It's terminal was Pavonia Terminal close to where the Pavonia/Newport PATH Station is today.

CNJ went to Jersey City, and PRR went to Exchange Place.

 

[AutoTrDvr]

They didn't need pull. The PRR built and owned Pennsylvania Station New York. It was exclusively for the use of the PRR and the PRR-controlled LIRR. The New York, New Haven & Hartford also called at Penn with their portion of through trains between Washington and Boston.

Leaving Grand Central Station for all the "NY Central System" routes (e.g. LSL)?

Yes. The PRR's arch-rival, the New York Central owned Grand Central. The New Haven also called at Grand Central with their Boston to New York trains (only the though trains to Washington called at Pennsylvania Station).

Left on the outside looking in were the Erie, Lackawanna, Central RR of NJ (B&O and Reading), among others. They were stuck with terminating in New Jersey with ferry connections to Manhattan.

Erie did not go to Jersey City. It's terminal was Pavonia Terminal close to where the Pavonia/Newport PATH Station is today.

Isn't that Jersey City???

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I see on the station sign, "Pennsylvania RR' "Burlington (Northern)" "Alton" and "Milwaukee Road" What I don't see, is "Union Pacific!"

You don't see Union Pacific because the UP didn't go to Chicago. Only as far as Omaha and then it became Milwaukee Road. There were UP passenger cars on the train, but it was pulled by Milwaukee Road engines Sometimes you might see a UP engine come into Chicago, but it was Milwaukee Road track all the way from Omaha.

And this response highlights the fact that many trains all over the country---north, south, east and west ----were operated as a joint venture between several railroads.

For example, the pre Amtrak California Zephyr. It was operated between Chicago and Denver by the Burlington. Then Denver and Rio Grande handled it between Denver and Salt Lake City. From there Western Pacific took it on to Oakland. (today that would be Emeryville), This usually meant that each railroad contributed a portion of the equipment based more or less on mileage. It also usually meant the locomotive would change each time a train was taken over by another railroad There are exceptions to everything in the railroad world but the above is the usual.

There was a train called the South Wind which broke the above rules. It was PRR from Chicago to Louisville. Then Louisville and Nashville from Louisville to Montgomery. Then Atlantic Coast Line to Jacksonville and then Florida East Coast from there to Miami. This train's equipment was all PRR for many years, though that changed about 17 years later. And, still breaking all the the rules of joint operation, it was normally powered all the way from Chicago to Miami by ACL alternating with PRR.

Some stations were called terminal stations. I am sure, back in the mid to late 1800s that such names as terminal station really meant that it was the end of the line. And, as already stated, union stations handled trains of several lines.But do keep in mind that rail history is always revolving and that in later years those names did not always continue to reflect their original intent.

Look at the two stations which at one time existed in downtown Atlanta. One was called Union and one was called Terminal. Yet each station served about four railroad companies each. And most trains at each station were through trains, very few actually "terminating". So much for literal titles---in later years, that is.

 

[Ryan]

Since we do have a number of stations in my area named "Penn,"

All of those stations were built by the PRR of their exclusive use (Baltimore, Newark, etc, etc...).

 

[AutoTrDvr]

Since we do have a number of stations in my area named "Penn,"

All of those stations were built by the PRR of their exclusive use (Baltimore, Newark, etc, etc...).

Which is why I thought UP had done the same thing with "Union" stations...

 

[jis]

They didn't need pull. The PRR built and owned Pennsylvania Station New York. It was exclusively for the use of the PRR and the PRR-controlled LIRR. The New York, New Haven & Hartford also called at Penn with their portion of through trains between Washington and Boston.

Leaving Grand Central Station for all the "NY Central System" routes (e.g. LSL)?

Yes. The PRR's arch-rival, the New York Central owned Grand Central. The New Haven also called at Grand Central with their Boston to New York trains (only the though trains to Washington called at Pennsylvania Station).

Left on the outside looking in were the Erie, Lackawanna, Central RR of NJ (B&O and Reading), among others. They were stuck with terminating in New Jersey with ferry connections to Manhattan.

Erie did not go to Jersey City. It's terminal was Pavonia Terminal close to where the Pavonia/Newport PATH Station is today.

Isn't that Jersey City???

Yes. But it is not the Jersey City Terminal.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Just FYI a 1971 PRR timetable shows seven major stations in Chicago

Union, 4 railroads

Central, 4 railroads

C&NW, one railroad

Dearborn 6 railroads

Grand Central 3 railroads

La Salle Street 4 railroads

Englewood Union 4 railroads

Of course there were many suburnan stations as well.

There might be a question what a list of stations in Chicago has to do with anything but actually this began with a view of Union Station in Chicago. Just wanted you to know there was a lot more than one station in the WIndy City

 

[George Harris]

I see on the station sign, "Pennsylvania RR' "Burlington (Northern)" "Alton" and "Milwaukee Road" What I don't see, is "Union Pacific!"

"Burlington" does not refer to Burlington Northern, which did not exist at that time. It referred to Chicago, Burlington and Quincy (CB&Q markings) which was commonly shortened to just "Burlington" and had the slogan "Everywhere West" despite not getting west of Denver.

"Alton" was the Chicago and Alton which was a subsidiary of the B&O until sold in bankruptcy or near bankruptcy to the GM&O. That is why they had B&O style signals. This was probably the first case of a northern road being taken over by a southern road.

 

[MrFSS]

Here is a map of the Chicago Stations pre-Amtrak.

Note - there was an EL line to CUS, Chicago Northwestern Station, and to La Salle Street Station, all now gone.

Also, Central Station was were the Roosevelt Road Metra Station is now.

Here is a picture I took in the 50's from Roosevelt Road of the Southwind that Bill Mentions in his post above. It had ACL engines this particuloar day.

It could have had PRR, too.

And, a time when UP power was used coming into Chicago on the north side (where the Hiawathas and EB come and go today.)

 

[AutoTrDvr]

Just FYI a 1971 PRR timetable shows seven major stations in Chicago

Union, 4 railroads

Central, 4 railroads

C&NW, one railroad

Dearborn 6 railroads

Grand Central 3 railroads

La Salle Street 4 railroads

Englewood Union 4 railroads

Of course there were many suburnan stations as well.

There might be a question what a list of stations in Chicago has to do with anything but actually this began with a view of Union Station in Chicago. Just wanted you to know there was a lot more than one station in the WIndy City

I lived in the Chicago area for several years (got my Bachelors at Northwestern). Definitely familiar with Union, C & NW, Dearborn, & LaSalle. Used Union (mostly for Milwaukee Rd) & C & NW a lot. Used LaSalle for the Rock Island. I still can't get over the fact that UP was able to acquire C & NW.

 

[Trogdor]

Here is a map of the Chicago Stations pre-Amtrak.

Note - there was an EL line to CUS, Chicago Northwestern Station, and to La Salle Street Station, all now gone.

Actually, the lines that served North Western Station and LaSalle Street Station are still there, with the same stops that existed back then. Gone is the direct link from Clinton/Lake (now Green / Pink Line) to NW station (now Ogilvie Center), so you have to walk down the street to get to the entrance. The LaSalle/Van Buren station in the Loop still serves LaSalle Street Station.

 

[AutoTrDvr]

Here is a map of the Chicago Stations pre-Amtrak.

Note - there was an EL line to CUS, Chicago Northwestern Station, and to La Salle Street Station, all now gone.

I would always use the "Clinton" CTA station (on what is now the Green Line - formerly the "Lake / Dan Ryan" Line) for the C & NW terminal. In fact, I used to watch the trains leave that station form the El platform at Clinton. Of course, the "Blue Line" Clinton station was for Union Station (& Main PO). I used to take what is now the Red Line from the "Loyola" stop, xfr to the "pink line" and went all the way to the end of that line (54th st.) to go to work every day for a bit. I recall near the C & NW station there was a lunch place called "Steve's" An almost exact copycat of the "Billy Goat" tavern where the guy sounded just like the SNL Parody ("Cheebugah...Cheebugah" etc.). :lol:

When I rode the CTA, the "Red" line to Howard St. did not go all the way to 95th. It went to both Englewood (A side) and "Jackson Pk (B side). It was the "Lake / Dan Ryan" train (now the Green Line) that went to 95th.

Otherwise, all seems the same on the CTA. I recall the old Evanston shuttle trains (like on the Bob Newhart show) that had only one car and two cabs inside at each end. The "Yellow Line" (Skokie Swift) also had this car (as well as an articulated 3 unit train) that had both a 3rd rail shoe and a pan, for the catenary portion in Skokie.

Also, Central Station was were the Roosevelt Road Metra Station is now.

Here is a picture I took in the 50's from Roosevelt Road of the Southwind that Bill Mentions in his post above. It had ACL engines this particuloar day.

It could have had PRR, too.

I remember the ACL also. My mom was living in NW Atlanta for a while in the 60's There used to be a 4 track freight line on which the ACL would pass right

by the apt. building they lived in. I recall re-visiting that in 1999, and it's become a MARTA line with only two tracks.

 

[AutoTrDvr]

Here is a map of the Chicago Stations pre-Amtrak.

Note - there was an EL line to CUS, Chicago Northwestern Station, and to La Salle Street Station, all now gone.

Actually, the lines that served North Western Station and LaSalle Street Station are still there, with the same stops that existed back then. Gone is the direct link from Clinton/Lake (now Green / Pink Line) to NW station (now Ogilvie Center), so you have to walk down the street to get to the entrance. The LaSalle/Van Buren station in the Loop still serves LaSalle Street Station.

Aw, that's a shame if that link to the Clinton El Sta. from Ogilvie is gone. I used that a lot.