Various short trips around the Willamette Valley

[Matthew H Fish]

You raise a good point. If the bus service had kept its share of riders, there should be six round trips a day between Salem and Silverton, with four round trips continuing to Mt. Angel. So, for example, there could be an evening trip for night classes at Chemeketa?

I also note that there are only three round trips on Saturdays, so no service increase despite population doubling.

On the other hand, perhaps Silverton has more services and retailing now than it did before, so there is less reason to "go into town." Seniors might be more willing to drive around Silverton than to go into Salem.

Silverton does have a lot of services---in fact, it is kind of at the perfect size where all the basic services someone would want are present, (including what looks to be a modern hospital under expansion), but it is still small enough that it hasn't turned into sprawl, and people in the community can probably know each other.
And like a lot of smaller towns, it probably is more keyed to retirees and seniors.
But that is one of the things I think about---if you have just graduated high school and want to go to community college in a town like Silverton, even though Chemeketa is only about 10 miles away, that requires a separate car. I imagine that in many towns like that in the area, there are lots of young people that can't even get a community college education because of that. That is just one example, but it shows what a gulf there is between being a young person in Silverton, and being in the same situation in Salem.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

Yesterday, I went to Springfield, Oregon. I have been to Eugene several times, and have been to Springfield in passing, but this was the first trip that was meant to go to Springfield.
In the past, I had to go to Springfield because for a while, Greyhound stopped at the Springfield Station, but Greyhound has now moved their "station" back to the Amtrak station. At the same time, however, they have cut down their trips to one a day. This means that it makes it harder to get to and from Eugene (or Springfield). On this trip, I took the Amtrak Cascades to Eugene, then took BRT to Springfield and walked from there.
From a transit point of view, I guess one of my clearest insights here is how local transit can either make up for, or compound with, problems with long distant transit. My Amtrak train was 20 minutes late---not bad for the Cascades. But in Eugene, the BRT line runs every 15 minutes. In most cities of Eugene's size, the buses run every 30 minutes or even every hour--- which can really destroy the plans of a long-distance traveller. As it is, I was a little bit pinched for time, but not terribly so.
In this video I also talk about the difference between BRT systems and articulated buses passing as BRT: the Eugene BRT has doors on both sides, and in places, its own ROW. The difference in performance, ridership and feel between a BRT that has the flexibility of boarding by having stations on either side, and a BRT that I saw in Vancouver, WA, which was basically an articulated bus, is a big one.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

This weekend, I took a bus to Portland so I could ride the Amtrak Cascades between Portland and Albany. It was her first time riding it, so she thought it was fun. I thought it was fun, too, of course, even though a corridor train doesn't quite give the "full experience"
Along with lots of nice footage of country side, I make another important point in this video, where I show where the train is moving relative to the cars on the freeway---and it is either on pace or overtaking them. There are many advocates for high speed rail on the Eugene to Seattle corridor, and while I think it is a good idea, the truth is that that is a long way away---while rail service in the Willamette Valley is already able to compete with automobile traffic, if three things are dealt with:
1. More frequent service, right now it is only three times a day between Portland and Eugene (including the Coast Starlight)
2. More dependability---it can outpace traffic, when it doesn't have to stop or slow down
3. Better connecting service outside of city centers.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

Also, a very specific update:
Greyhound is back to giving two trips up and down from Seattle to Eugene a day (and on to Sacramento). Greyhound and Flixbus now offer bus schedules in one unified app and interface, so someone can choose a round trip going one way on Greyhound and the other way on Flixbus.
This is good, but there is one thing that doesn't make sense:
Greyhound leaves at 11:55 AM and 7:40 PM, Flixbus leaves at 11:45 AM and 8 PM. So there are four buses a day, but effectively only two buses, because they have a pair of buses leaving at the same time. With different branding.

 

[Willbridge]

Some notes:

-- The Gate Numbers seen briefly at the start of the video were installed for a movie. As it was set in a bigger city, the original Gate Numbers 1, 2 and 3 were upgraded!

-- On the first version of regional service in the Willamette Valley there were stops at East Milwaukie and Woodburn. For the Cascades they were replaced -- with municipal assistance -- by the Oregon City stop. Oregon City is a focal point for Tri-Met bus routes and has a bridge to West Linn.

-- Woodburn may not have done well because it has a large Spanish-speaking population and I've never gotten the impression that Amtrak does much with that market. As we've noted here, Greyhound is hanging on in Woodburn and some of the supplementary PDX<>EUG Thruway buses serve it. If there was an overnight Thruway bus running EUG<>SAC I think that Woodburn would make a logical stop in the evening southbound and morning northbound.

-- In the fields just north of Salem you passed Chemawa, the Indian School. SP trains used to make conditional stops there to serve the kids who were coming from all over the Northwest, whether they wanted to or not.

-- Just before the glimpse of the State Capitol Bldg. you can see the former Highway Bldg. One of those windows belonged to the computer travel forecaster who in 1974 or 5 told me that his model showed that no one would ride Amtrak or Trailways in the Willamette Valley, because Greyhound was cheaper and faster and more frequent. I pointed out to him that from his window he could see the Coast Starlight, a 17-car train that was frequently sold out. Three of the four Trailways trips were Golden Eagles, with a surcharge for reservations and extra services. His model could not cope with quality issues.

-- Albany was not a stop on the original Amtrak system. They didn't realize its relationship with Corvallis and OSU. We included it in the original 1975 rail/bus Valley plan and eventually it was added.

 

[Willbridge]

Also, a very specific update:
Greyhound is back to giving two trips up and down from Seattle to Eugene a day (and on to Sacramento). Greyhound and Flixbus now offer bus schedules in one unified app and interface, so someone can choose a round trip going one way on Greyhound and the other way on Flixbus.
This is good, but there is one thing that doesn't make sense:
Greyhound leaves at 11:55 AM and 7:40 PM, Flixbus leaves at 11:45 AM and 8 PM. So there are four buses a day, but effectively only two buses, because they have a pair of buses leaving at the same time. With different branding.

They are also at different "stations" in Eugene and Seattle. And the schedules were written by people in Los Angeles for Flix and in Dallas for Greyhound. The Greyhound trips are locked into connecting times with their national network. The Flix buses are scheduled to beat Amtrak. We should wait and see as their integration continues.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

Some notes:


-- Woodburn may not have done well because it has a large Spanish-speaking population and I've never gotten the impression that Amtrak does much with that market. As we've noted here, Greyhound is hanging on in Woodburn and some of the supplementary PDX<>EUG Thruway buses serve it. If there was an overnight Thruway bus running EUG<>SAC I think that Woodburn would make a logical stop in the evening southbound and morning northbound.

There are many stops along the route that might make sense. Taken on a case by case basis, I would say that someone could make a case for Canby, Woodburn, Turner, Jefferson, Halsey, Harrisburg and Junction City all make sense in one way or another---but adding them all together would probably add a lot of time to the trip, as well as cost a lot of money for adding in stations or platforms at all those locations. But I think that a Woodburn station makes at least as much sense as an Oregon City station, since people in Oregon City have many other ways to get to Portland and beyond.
As with so much else in train travel, it is a chicken and egg problem. If the Amtrak Cascades ran regularly enough, then many people in those towns would be interested in having a top in their town---but the Cascades might not get regular service until it is convenient for people outside of a few urban centers to ride the train regularly.

 

[Willbridge]

There are many stops along the route that might make sense. Taken on a case by case basis, I would say that someone could make a case for Canby, Woodburn, Turner, Jefferson, Halsey, Harrisburg and Junction City all make sense in one way or another---but adding them all together would probably add a lot of time to the trip, as well as cost a lot of money for adding in stations or platforms at all those locations. But I think that a Woodburn station makes at least as much sense as an Oregon City station, since people in Oregon City have many other ways to get to Portland and beyond.
As with so much else in train travel, it is a chicken and egg problem. If the Amtrak Cascades ran regularly enough, then many people in those towns would be interested in having a top in their town---but the Cascades might not get regular service until it is convenient for people outside of a few urban centers to ride the train regularly.

Harrisburg on 99E has always been a loser in the intercity bus service because OSU and Corvallis on 99W are more attractive. Stopping a train there would be another test of whether it is worthwhile being the top dog in a small market, versus catering to larger populations where there is competition.

In reference to Oregon City, I don't think it's meant to be a connection to Portland, but rather for trips in the other direction or through Portland.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

Harrisburg on 99E has always been a loser in the intercity bus service because OSU and Corvallis on 99W are more attractive. Stopping a train there would be another test of whether it is worthwhile being the top dog in a small market, versus catering to larger populations where there is competition.

I guess this is where I would need to look at the specific math. What is the cost of installing and maintaining a train platform? What is the cost in time of stopping to load and unload? Harrisburg has 3600 people---how many daily passengers does that translate to?
Right now, also, there is two Cascades that pass through the town, and one possible roundtrip southward---which also allows only two hours in Eugene.
My own solution would be to focus on the low hanging fruit---increasing and improving service among the existing routes---until the train network is efficient enough that it will make easy sense, and not "kinda sense" to the smaller towns.

 

[Willbridge]

I guess this is where I would need to look at the specific math. What is the cost of installing and maintaining a train platform? What is the cost in time of stopping to load and unload? Harrisburg has 3600 people---how many daily passengers does that translate to?
Right now, also, there is two Cascades that pass through the town, and one possible roundtrip southward---which also allows only two hours in Eugene.
My own solution would be to focus on the low hanging fruit---increasing and improving service among the existing routes---until the train network is efficient enough that it will make easy sense, and not "kinda sense" to the smaller towns.

Amtrak adds about five minutes if they insert a stop. Of course, if a line is electrified and has high level platforms less is needed.

One solution might be bus service.

I looked up the run times for a EUG<>ALB bus via 99E and in the 1970's it was 61 to 72 minutes. [Limited trains of the Oregon Electric made ALB<>EUG with four stops in 75-80 minutes.] The Thruway buses are scheduled for 55 minutes on I-5. Would a 99E bus still make it in 65-70 minutes? That would pick up Halsey, Harrisburg and Junction City. Would anyone ride ALB<>EUG if their bus was not on I-5? (There is a theory in the intercity bus business that passengers object to routes that are not on the Interstates, regardless of the actual time.)

 

[Matthew H Fish]

Would a 99E bus still make it in 65-70 minutes? That would pick up Halsey, Harrisburg and Junction City. Would anyone ride ALB<>EUG if their bus was not on I-5? (There is a theory in the intercity bus business that passengers object to routes that are not on the Interstates, regardless of the actual time.)

Well, that is the big question, but I have to say that my own answer, from what I have seen is...no. At least not right now.
Even the bus line between Corvallis and Albany doesn't seem to be used by commuters regularly, and usually has only four or five people on a full sized bus...and Corvallis and Albany are larger and closer together than other possible connection points.
There are some objective reasons why train service is better than bus service, but I think a lot of the difference is subjective. Buses are just seen as clunky and unpleasant---which tends to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. This isn't the case for the Flixbus and POINT buses, but all of the buses that go on the rural routes in the Willamette Valley are basically seen and scheduled as a last option. Bus travel is usually treated as a social service, and the idea is that since it is a social service, it doesn't have to be fast---because most people don't have anywhere they need to be, and because beggars can't be choosers.
That is kind of my pessimistic take on it---of course, there is nothing intrinsic about bus travel that makes it impossible, especially because the towns in the valley are close enough together and populous enough that even the smaller ones could have feasible bus service---but it involves fighting against a lot of ingrained biases about buses.

 

[Matthew H Fish]

One of the things I like about these trip reports is it gets me out of too much theory.
I have a lot of thoughts about the social and political ramifications of transit, especially as almost everything has become politicized. I think it is short sighted that people in smaller, and even larger towns, often think of transit as being almost sinister and a sign of some type of urban decadence. But discussing the theory behind that gets confusing---which is why I like to be able to just post what I see on my trips.

 

[Willbridge]

One of the things I like about these trip reports is it gets me out of too much theory.
I have a lot of thoughts about the social and political ramifications of transit, especially as almost everything has become politicized. I think it is short sighted that people in smaller, and even larger towns, often think of transit as being almost sinister and a sign of some type of urban decadence. But discussing the theory behind that gets confusing---which is why I like to be able to just post what I see on my trips.

This was outside of the Willamette Valley, but in 1973 when I was working on the start-up KFS transit bus service, the project manager bought a big German Shepherd. He was receiving phone calls of a disturbing nature, with caller/s referring to "mass transit" as a Communist thing. Eventually, ODOT changed the name of the unit from Mass Transit Division to Public Transportation Division.

I've mentioned elsewhere in this bulletin board that I noticed locals interested in my Salem Motor Pool car. Combined with what the local project manager was picking up, I switched to using Amtrak on the days that it ran, and Greyhound when it did not. Then I picked up a car from the Highway Division and I could test drive bus routes and stop for a coffee and note taking without folks wondering what those bureaucrats from Salem were doing in K. Falls.

Greyhound, BTW, had three trips a day between SLM and KFS, plus more connecting trips. Two of them were on the route through Alturas, Reno, Las Vegas, for Phoenix.