Where to get ice

[ScottC4746]

We will be travelling in a sleeper LAX-CHI and then CHI-EMY and thought about bringing the little airline type bottles to drink instead of paying the $6 per bottle on board. Where would we be able to get glasses of ice on board? I figuered the lounge car, but would they give out glasses of ice without a purchase?

 

[AmtrakBlue]

There should be ice in your sleeper though you'll need to ask the attendant to get it for you.

 

[chakk]

On my trip in the #422 sleeper last week, the attendant had a foam bucket of ice across from the coffee machine, juice boxes, and water bottles available all trip at the center of the upper level.

 

[EMDF9A]

On my trip in the #422 sleeper last week, the attendant had a foam bucket of ice across from the coffee machine, juice boxes, and water bottles available all trip at the center of the upper level.

It is unfortunate that your SCA violated AMTRAK policy and Food Code by placing the ice out in public access. One of the nastiest bugs out there today, Norovirus, THRIVES in a cold environment and is not killed by alcohol gels. When large cruise ships get Noro outbreaks the prime suspect for transmission is ice and hand rails. Gee... do you see anything on a train that you can corelate to this?

Ice is considered food and thus must be handled with care and cannot be accessible to the general public unless there is a dispensing system that would prevent bare-handed contact with "ready to eat" food (ice). The attendant should be required to wash his/her hands and put on a glove before scooping the ice (though I dont know if this is enforced onboard.)

I know we all like the convenience of always available ice, but until AMTRAK retro-fits all cars with gravity fed ice dispensers, the policy of having ice available in the attendant's room for the asking is the safest from a public health standpoint.

 

[TinCan782]

In a sleeper, there will be bottled water available for ZERO dollars! As for Ice, I've experienced the "foam cooler" on 422 and other times, have to ask the attendant for some.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

More often than not I see the ice on public display as well but except for icing down some beers never had need for it; I like my drinks neat or up. I know Amtrak is fairly good about having Food Inspectors ride the trains and inspect the Diners and I would think these should be the folks to crack down on public ice and either administer or recommend on the spot discipline.

 

[Phil S]

On my trip in the #422 sleeper last week, the attendant had a foam bucket of ice across from the coffee machine, juice boxes, and water bottles available all trip at the center of the upper level.

It is unfortunate that your SCA violated AMTRAK policy and Food Code by placing the ice out in public access. One of the nastiest bugs out there today, Norovirus, THRIVES in a cold environment and is not killed by alcohol gels. When large cruise ships get Noro outbreaks the prime suspect for transmission is ice and hand rails. Gee... do you see anything on a train that you can corelate to this?

Ice is considered food and thus must be handled with care and cannot be accessible to the general public unless there is a dispensing system that would prevent bare-handed contact with "ready to eat" food (ice). The attendant should be required to wash his/her hands and put on a glove before scooping the ice (though I dont know if this is enforced onboard.)

I know we all like the convenience of always available ice, but until AMTRAK retro-fits all cars with gravity fed ice dispensers, the policy of having ice available in the attendant's room for the asking is the safest from a public health standpoint.

Thank you for your concern but I'll take my chances with norovirus over the rather great inconvenience of having to find (and interrupt) the SCA every time I want ice. Also, Amtrak policy is not as you claim. Rather the manual says that ice will be avilable at all times in the ice container or something to that effect. In fact I've only seen one sleeper that actually had a built-in ice container. In all the others, there's simply a styrofoam ice chest with an ice scoop.

Also, how about a source on your claim that norovirus thrives in cold environments. Yes , there have been cases of norovirus being transmitted via contaminated ice but it's not at all common. And AFAIK all viruses reproduce more slowly at cold temperatures. "Survives", yes, but I doubt it thrives. But, hey, give me a source -- I'm here to learn.

Retrofitting with gravity ice dispensers: I'd be delighted but don't hold your breath.

Alcohol gel: it's actually not very effective against anything compared with soap and water. But what does that have to do with ice?

My advice is to use the scoop carefully so as not to get the handle into the ice and then leave the scoop outside the plastic bag, not inside it on the ice. And for god's sake if you're sick with something thaty might be norovirus, wash your hands throughly before handling any food stuff anywhere! If it's not fun to have on the train, it's even less fun on a two-flight transcontinental plane trip. I speak from experience.

Sorry to jump on you, but not having ice available is one of my few (very occasional) gripes about SCAs.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

Right now is not the time to take any chances with ice distribution as CDC indicates a very danerous strain of Norwalk Virus is running concurrent with the flu. Do we really want to see a remake of The Cassandra Crossing?

Col. Stephen Mackenzie: [On speaker phone] I don't have to tell you what we're up against!

Dr. Jonathan Chamberlain: What you're up against? I may be the only doctor for a thousand potential plague victims if I haven't caught it myself.

Col. Stephen Mackenzie: That's exactly why it's important to contain the disease now and why you'll all be heading for an isolation facility in Wyoming, where you'll get the very best...

Dr. Jonathan Chamberlain: In the meantime, what do you intend I fight it with? Aspirin?

 

[The Davy Crockett]

A quick check of the Mayo Clinic's website yields this:

Noroviruses are difficult to eradicate, because they can withstand hot and cold temperatures, as well as most disinfectants.

So no, there seems nothing special about cold environments and norovirues.

 

[jsreeves]

I think I would trust Amtrak with my food safety before I would some teenager at the local fast food place.

 

[jphjaxfl]

Right now is not the time to take any chances with ice distribution as CDC indicates a very danerous strain of Norwalk Virus is running concurrent with the flu. Do we really want to see a remake of The Cassandra Crossing?

Col. Stephen Mackenzie: [On speaker phone] I don't have to tell you what we're up against!

Dr. Jonathan Chamberlain: What you're up against? I may be the only doctor for a thousand potential plague victims if I haven't caught it myself.

Col. Stephen Mackenzie: That's exactly why it's important to contain the disease now and why you'll all be heading for an isolation facility in Wyoming, where you'll get the very best...

Dr. Jonathan Chamberlain: In the meantime, what do you intend I fight it with? Aspirin?

I worked in Public Health at one time. I agree that ice machines are one of the worst places for bacteria. It is usually because too many people are handling the ice so I can see why Amtrak feels it is important to control access.

 

[Guest]

When large cruise ships get Noro outbreaks the prime suspect for transmission is ice and hand rails. Gee... do you see anything on a train that you can corelate to this?

On our cruise last summer, there was a rather major Noro outbreak. They focused upon, and shutdown, the ice cream dispensers and the video arcade for a most thorough cleaning. Though for me, IMHO, it was more likely caused by the ship employee who was vomiting in the food service area, and them not caring enough to bother even cleaning it up.

Back to the train, I can't see any way of having ice being available for sleeper passenger self-service, except in a ice chest.

 

[shelzp]

On my last couple of trips (SWC) the room attendant made a point of telling me that he would bring ice if I needed any. He even checked during the trip to see if I could use some although I didn't need it because of not having anything along that would benefit from ice.

 

[Phil S]

Let's keep in mind also that the 1-3 sleeper cars are a far cry from a cruise ship with many thousands of passengers and employees. It only takes one, but your chances are more than 10 times worse on a cruise ship than in sleeper.

Next, if a passenger is sick, do we assume that the SCAs will wash their hands properly? The chances of that border on zero. Admittedly having only one person handling the ice reduces the risk, but that has to be weighed against incovenience and any likely benefit. (The thought of someone boarding a train knowing they have flu or, even worse, norovirus is enought to send steam out my ears.)

Next, publically available ice is not against health regs, at least not in my county. My favorite breakfast cafe spot has ice out with a scoop, and they always get scores in the high 90s.

Last, if people are worried about the sleeper car ice, they don't have to use it. I'm not trying to stop them from going up to the lounge car and getting their own ice. I just don't want to have to wander the train looking for the SCA, who may well be right in the middle of a well deserved lunch break.

To me being able to sip some good whiskey on the rocks in the afternoon before dinner, while watching the scenery go by, is one of the high points of sleeper travel. And then another as a night-cap really does help me sleep better.

Cheers!

 

[Shortline]

Bring a soft cooler, ask for ice when you need it, and get enough in the cooler to meet your cocktail needs. Works for me. And, why bring little airline bottles? Just bring a regular bottle, and whatever mixer you prefer, and go at it.

 

[EMDF9A]

On my trip in the #422 sleeper last week, the attendant had a foam bucket of ice across from the coffee machine, juice boxes, and water bottles available all trip at the center of the upper level.

It is unfortunate that your SCA violated AMTRAK policy and Food Code by placing the ice out in public access. One of the nastiest bugs out there today, Norovirus, THRIVES in a cold environment and is not killed by alcohol gels. When large cruise ships get Noro outbreaks the prime suspect for transmission is ice and hand rails. Gee... do you see anything on a train that you can corelate to this?

Ice is considered food and thus must be handled with care and cannot be accessible to the general public unless there is a dispensing system that would prevent bare-handed contact with "ready to eat" food (ice). The attendant should be required to wash his/her hands and put on a glove before scooping the ice (though I dont know if this is enforced onboard.)

I know we all like the convenience of always available ice, but until AMTRAK retro-fits all cars with gravity fed ice dispensers, the policy of having ice available in the attendant's room for the asking is the safest from a public health standpoint.

Thank you for your concern but I'll take my chances with norovirus over the rather great inconvenience of having to find (and interrupt) the SCA every time I want ice. Also, Amtrak policy is not as you claim. Rather the manual says that ice will be avilable at all times in the ice container or something to that effect. In fact I've only seen one sleeper that actually had a built-in ice container. In all the others, there's simply a styrofoam ice chest with an ice scoop.

Also, how about a source on your claim that norovirus thrives in cold environments. Yes , there have been cases of norovirus being transmitted via contaminated ice but it's not at all common. And AFAIK all viruses reproduce more slowly at cold temperatures. "Survives", yes, but I doubt it thrives. But, hey, give me a source -- I'm here to learn.

Retrofitting with gravity ice dispensers: I'd be delighted but don't hold your breath.

Alcohol gel: it's actually not very effective against anything compared with soap and water. But what does that have to do with ice?

My advice is to use the scoop carefully so as not to get the handle into the ice and then leave the scoop outside the plastic bag, not inside it on the ice. And for god's sake if you're sick with something thaty might be norovirus, wash your hands throughly before handling any food stuff anywhere! If it's not fun to have on the train, it's even less fun on a two-flight transcontinental plane trip. I speak from experience.

Sorry to jump on you, but not having ice available is one of my few (very occasional) gripes about SCAs.

Perhaps "thrive" isnt the word I should have chosed to describe the virus itself, but rather transmissions thrive in a cold environment such as ice dispensers, salad bars, sandwich prep areas, ice cream freezers, etc. And they do so because these environments are so hard to clean and sanitize AND keep in operation. Many common foodborne illness are rendered inactive by freezing. Norovirus is not. In addition it can live on a hard surface for weeks.

AMTRAK's policy is to follow the FDA food code. The FDA food code as well as state codes which use it as a model limit the access of ice to "food handlers" or to a closed system where there can be no bare-hand contact with a ready to eat food. Ice is a ready to eat food. I understand your frustration with not being able to get what you want when you want it, but it really is a matter of public safety. YOU may very well wash your hands after you use the restroom, and wash your hands and use the ice scoop properly, but you cannot guarantee that everyone else aboard does. What about that 8 year old in the Family Bedroom who just urinated in the lav, and grabbed a cup of ice on the way back to the room? It takes just ONE person to cause a widespread outbreak.

For convenience I will post the link to the Washington food code which mirrors the FDA code.

http://www.doh.wa.go...afetyRules.aspx

This is the 2005 revision, of which I am one of the authors. (There is a current project to revise again based on the 2009 FDA code. I am not part of that project.) I have a MS in Human Nutrition and Masters in Public Health. With very few exceptions, we copied the FDA code verbatim. I believe that I can, without a doubt, speak with great authority on this matter.

Again , I am sorry for your inconvenience, but there really is a bigger picture.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

Well, I guess I'll keep drinking my single malts neat. Ice screws up the flavor anyway. ^_^

 

[Ryan]

Given the difference between the mild irritation of having to ask for ice, and the massive irritation of vomiting (and worse) for hours on end (or caring for a small child suffering though the same, both of which I've had to deal with in the last month), I'm glad that Amtrak's policy is as it is.

 

[pennyk]

I will be traveling on the Silver Meteor this week, and after reading this thread, I am disappointed that the ice is routinely left out on the Silvers for passengers to use at their convenience. I do not plan to use any ice this (or possibly any other) trip.

 

[alanh]

This comes up from time to time. The FDA's guidance, which is followed by Amtrak and most states, is that ice shall not be dispensed in a way that people can stick their grubby hands in it (they phrase it in a more technical way, but that's what it means). Having tongs or scoops is not adequate in that many people don't use them. Amtrak employees are required to follow Amtrak's food handling rules, though many don't.

Think about that lavatory that's right next to the drinks station on a Superliner. Now, think how many people don't wash their hands after using the toilet. And then they decide to take a drink back to their room, so they root around the in cooler chest for a fistfull of ice. Ew.

Sure, you may be conscientious about washing your hands and using ice tongs, but most people aren't, and that's the reality the FDA and Amtrak has to deal with. "It's okay for people to get sick because it's inconvenient otherwise" isn't a position they want to defend.

 

[Guest]

I will be traveling on the Silver Meteor this week, and after reading this thread, I am disappointed that the ice is routinely left out on the Silvers for passengers to use at their convenience. I do not plan to use any ice this (or possibly any other) trip.

That must make for fun at parties or picnics, if you'll get that upset if the host has the ice in a bucket or a cooler.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I've seen Amtrak staff leave bags of ice sitting on the bottom of the luggage transporters, sitting on the pavement next to the train, and sitting on the floor of the train. If you think the ice was "clean" before your next door neighbor touched it you're living in a fantasy world.

You don't want ice from a public location? Then don't take any. Problem solved. Seriously.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

That must make for fun at parties or picnics, if you'll get that upset if the host has the ice in a bucket or a cooler.

Ahhhh... :unsure: The phantom poster strikes again. :wacko: I don't see anywhere that she said anything other than what she plans to do aboard. Read more carfully next time before you try insulting someone while lamely hiding h34r: behind the 'guest' tag. :angry2:

 

[EMDF9A]

I will be traveling on the Silver Meteor this week, and after reading this thread, I am disappointed that the ice is routinely left out on the Silvers for passengers to use at their convenience. I do not plan to use any ice this (or possibly any other) trip.

That must make for fun at parties or picnics, if you'll get that upset if the host has the ice in a bucket or a cooler.

Actually yes I would be and would not consume that ice. Was the food contact surface (The interior of the bucket or the cooler) properly cleaned and sanitized after its last use? (You know... when you went fishing & put the fresh caught trout in there) Yeah, you may have rinsed it out. You may have even used dish detergent, but you did not sanitize it. You didnt kill the organisims alive on its surface. Personally I never consume home made ice or ice out of a container that does not have a single use disposable barrier.

As for the transport of the bags of ice, the bag is a barrier. AS long as that barrier is intact, yes, it can be on the luggage rack or on the platform. The treatment of that bag of ice once it is aboard is of greater importance. How it is stored and dispensed.

 

[NW cannonball]

This comes up from time to time. The FDA's guidance, which is followed by Amtrak and most states, is that ice shall not be dispensed in a way that people can stick their grubby hands in it (they phrase it in a more technical way, but that's what it means). Having tongs or scoops is not adequate in that many people don't use them. Amtrak employees are required to follow Amtrak's food handling rules, though many don't.

Think about that lavatory that's right next to the drinks station on a Superliner. Now, think how many people don't wash their hands after using the toilet. And then they decide to take a drink back to their room, so they root around the in cooler chest for a fistfull of ice. Ew.

Sure, you may be conscientious about washing your hands and using ice tongs, but most people aren't, and that's the reality the FDA and Amtrak has to deal with. "It's okay for people to get sick because it's inconvenient otherwise" isn't a position they want to defend.

Thanks for your voice of reason. When I worked at a health care corp - the "infection control" people were always getting in the "caregivers" face about how seldom they washed their hands ( the "caregivers -- meaning doctors and nurses) - and rightly so. That was with folks that knew the risks of spreading disease and had seen cases of people hospitalized with nasty gut bugs. But consistently forgot to wash their hands. Even after the famous problems that Semmelweiss proved.

Those posters in the restroom - "employees must wash hands before returning to work" -- if half the workers in the hospital ignore those signs and most of the guys who leave the men's room never wash at all --

I trust the Amtrak coffee and juice, and the meals in the diner. Whether in the USA or in the "third world" -- never take the ice.

I say "no ice please" -- think I saw a fairly recent study where some kids did a science project - after the first flush the toilet bowl had less germs than the ice machine in several restaurants.

So, don't use the ice.

Actually, the vomiting and acute explosive watery diarrhea is not as bad as what most third-world people have to put up with every day. So count your blessings - and skip the ice.