Who Decides Which Train Goes (off NEC)?

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Here in NC tonight we have a conflict between 76 and 91. They're both running late and are in each other's way. Both dispatchers are involved (CSX & NS). If there are no freight trains involved, who decides which train gets the signal? The dispatchers or does CNOC?

Thanks,

jb
 
dispatchers are in charge of their portion of the railroad. They'll make whatever decision best moves trains. Amtrak wouldn't have anything to say about those decisions ( off of Amtrak-owned tracks, that is)
 
I believe the only tracks owned by Amtrak and thusly dispatched by them is in the NEC, so the freight company that owns the tracks is who dispatches.
 
CNOC is Consolidated National Operations Center. They are responsible for all Amtrak trains within the Amtrak system in general, but they control no dispatching at all.

CETC is what dispatches the NEC; DC to NYP essentially.

Neither would play any role in the scenario above. I suppose that were only one host RR involved, maybe a very kind dispatcher might call CNOC to see which train they'd prefer to get the green. But I sure wouldn't hold my breath on that one either. But in this case, it's really up to the CSX & NS dispatchers to figure it out.
 
Yes, it is located in the CNOC building. But it is still called CETC. Engineers still call CETC# where # represents what division they're currently on. They don't call CNOC.

CNOC has some minimal control over CETC, for example CNOC decides when to bus and calls the bus companies, etc. But CNOC concerns itself with Amtrak trains throughout the entire country, while CETC dispatches the NEC.
 
CNOC is Consolidated National Operations Center. They are responsible for all Amtrak trains within the Amtrak system in general, but they control no dispatching at all.
However, they may work with the host railroad dispatchers to resolve certain situation concerning Amtrak trains. If they wanted to see one Amtrak train given priority over another I am sure they could at least let the dispatchers know their desire and it is quite possible that if possible the dispatchers would try to accommodate.
CETC is what dispatches the NEC; DC to NYP essentially.
DC to NYP and NHV to BOS.
Roughly speaking this is who controls what.... (some boundary details may be a bit off since they might have changed slightly in the recent past, but not by a heck of a lot)

Washington K: CP Virginia to CP Avenue (exclusive)

CETC Wilmington: CP Avenue (Washington DC) to Holmes inclusive (Holmesburg PA)

CETC New York: Holmes exclusive to Erie (Secaucus Jct)

PSCC New York: Bergen (just outside the Hudson Tunnel) to Harold (Queens)

CETC New York: Gate (Queens) to CP262 exclusive (New Rochelle)

MNRR New Haven: CP262 inclusive to Mill River exclusive (New Haven)

CETC Boston: Mill River inclusive to BOS

Also in terms of terminology.... CETC has sections. So the CETC # that Alan mentioned is the Section number (not to be confused with Division, which is a different thing). Numbered sections usually are referred to in the form CETC #. The lettered sections are referred to as Section X.

Neither would play any role in the scenario above. I suppose that were only one host RR involved, maybe a very kind dispatcher might call CNOC to see which train they'd prefer to get the green. But I sure wouldn't hold my breath on that one either. But in this case, it's really up to the CSX & NS dispatchers to figure it out.
Exactly. If CNOC does not take a proactive role the host railroads will do whatever. But if CNOC chooses to make a request, they might comply.
AFAICT the portions of the NEC controlled by each CETC roughly coincides with the Divisions. I.e. CETC New York has New York Division, CETC Wilmington has Midatlantic Division (I think that is what it is called or alternatively NEC South. Not sure about the name), and CETC Boston controls New England Division.

Incidentally the Empire Corridor - NYP to Spuyten Duyvil and Poughkeepsie to Hoffmans + Post Road (Rensselaer) is also controlled out of NY CETC as a separate Section (I am thinking Section C but could be wrong). I think Dock (Newark) and its subsidiaries are still Section B and not a regular CETC Section unless something changed recently. I will check and post corrections as I learn them.

AFAICT Wilmington has CETC Sections 1 through 6, New York has 7 through 9, and eventually (maybe) 10, three or four extremely busy sections, and Boston has the rest. Boston does not identify Sections by number but by name I believe.
 
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When did National Operations move from DC to Wilmington? Besides Train Movement, does Space and Equipment control also reside now at Wilmington?

It's been a long time since I was familiar with these offices....... :)
 
When did National Operations move from DC to Wilmington? Besides Train Movement, does Space and Equipment control also reside now at Wilmington?It's been a long time since I was familiar with these offices....... :)
CNOC opened in 1998 in Wilmington. Philadelphia CETC moved to the CNOC building within the last 5 years.
It controls operations, space, staffing, schedules, IRROPS and almost everything else to do with actually running any of Amtrak's trains.

BTW, Amtrak CNOC has a Facebook page too: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Amtrak-CNOC/158667710846079
 
Thanks for that info, jis, interesting.

I wonder if Amtrak had the capacity or plans to move all of the NEC dispatching into that center someday?

Probably could not include the NYP area, due to the joint operation with the LIRR......
 
Thanks for that info, jis, interesting. I wonder if Amtrak had the capacity or plans to move all of the NEC dispatching into that center someday?

Probably could not include the NYP area, due to the joint operation with the LIRR......
No they have no such plans. Besides from a Business Continuity and Contingency Plan perspective, moving everything to a single center is a bad idea.
At present, after the cut over to ARINC was completed, any of the three CETC centers can temporarily take over the function of any of the other three in case of an emergency at one of them. That is not by chance. that's by design, and the intention has always been to keep it that way. Of course there would be no point in shifting control of PSCC to somewhere else when Penn Station itself is out of commission due to some emergency. That is the only join operation with LIRR.

OTOH, it would be useful to be able to keep CETC 7, 8, 9 and Sections A, B, C operational even if CETC New York is knocked out, so as to keep things running in NJ, PA and upstate NY.

Additionally, the location of CNOC has been found to be unfortunate due to it being on a flood plane. It was touch and go during Sandy. They came within inches of losing CNOC to flooding. So if anything they may be seriously thinking of moving CNOC to higher grounds somewhere eventually.
 
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Makes you wonder about the 'mega' dispatch centers in places like Omaha, Jacksonville, etc.....
 
I was walking by CNOC a couple of weeks ago and was looking at the river and trying to imagine it being so high to have come over the retention wall to threaten CNOC.
 
I was walking by CNOC a couple of weeks ago and was looking at the river and trying to imagine it being so high to have come over the retention wall to threaten CNOC.
Drew Galloway of Amtrak in his presentation on NEC High Speed Program at the TransAction 2013 Conference in Atlantic City stated publicly that they were within an inch of losing CNOC during Sandy. I was astonished to hear that myself. For now they are going to raise the flood wall to be Revised FEMA Projection plus foot in height, and then hope for the best. That is also the strategy around Penn Station in New York, specially by West Side Yard, and also at Sunnyside. Incidentally PATH is going for FEMA plus 2.5 feet. And NJTransit is probably hiring a different Praying to Weather Gods Service :p , and arranging to get access to yards outside of flood zones. they have already negotiated the use of the mostly abandoned Linden Yard with Conrail Shared Assets.
 
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Any thought to moving a contingency operations center outside of the NEC, even to someplace like Harrisburg or Albany which has significant Amtrak operations but is not on the NEC proper?
 
Makes you wonder about the 'mega' dispatch centers in places like Omaha, Jacksonville, etc.....
Don't wonder. Pretty sure after a bad hurricane in Florida a few years back CSX shut down nationally until they could get things straight.
 
Makes you wonder about the 'mega' dispatch centers in places like Omaha, Jacksonville, etc.....
With JAX I presume you're referring to CSX. In the last few years CSX has actually decentralized its dispatching to avoid issues with weather and such effecting the whole system. As I understand it each division now has a dispatching center, so Jacksonville, Florence, Baltimore, Atlanta, etc. I believe in an emergency situation if a dispatching center in one division is effected another division can cover for it. Say for example Florence has a hurricane bearing down on it, Jacksonville can temporarily host those operations for portions of the railroad that aren't shut down in that division.
 
Makes you wonder about the 'mega' dispatch centers in places like Omaha, Jacksonville, etc.....
With JAX I presume you're referring to CSX. In the last few years CSX has actually decentralized its dispatching to avoid issues with weather and such effecting the whole system. As I understand it each division now has a dispatching center, so Jacksonville, Florence, Baltimore, Atlanta, etc. I believe in an emergency situation if a dispatching center in one division is effected another division can cover for it. Say for example Florence has a hurricane bearing down on it, Jacksonville can temporarily host those operations for portions of the railroad that aren't shut down in that division.
That sounds good in theory, but I'm dubious of how it will work in practice. Taking your scenario, suppose Florence is being hit by a hurricane. The dispatchers who work there are most likely still going to be there, so who will run the Florence territories from Jacksonville? In order for it to work, some of the Florence dispatchers would have had to have been sent down to Jacksonville in advance, undoubtedly leaving a shortage in Florence. Usually there aren't so many extra dispatchers lying about that you can man two offices with them.

I'm curious if it's ever been successfully done - besides simply conducting a test of the system.

jb
 
I honestly don't know. But under that scenario there would be a significant portion of the railroad shut down, so you wouldn't need that many people to make the temporary move to keep it going. Its also possible that there are Dispatchers that are qualified on multiple territories to protect the other desks if necessary. Just as Conductors and Engineers are qualified on territories outside their normal runs, the same may hold true for Dispatchers.
 
Boston does not identify Sections by number but by name I believe.
I don't believe that I've ever heard them call anything but Amtrak Shoreline Dispatcher. In theory there should be some divisions, but if there are I've never been able to figure out where or how they tell them apart. CETC you can tell; not so with NHV to BOS.
 
Here in NC tonight we have a conflict between 76 and 91. They're both running late and are in each other's way. Both dispatchers are involved (CSX & NS). If there are no freight trains involved, who decides which train gets the signal? The dispatchers or does CNOC?
Always decided by dispatchers, and specifically by the dispatcher for that section of railroad.
Any individual block of track is under the control of a *particular* dispatcher. Sometimes the permission of two dispatchers may be needed to release a train into a block, but normally one dispatcher is in charge of any given section.

When two dispatchers are involved, for instance at a diamond crossing between two different railroads, one dispatcher is in charge of the intersection and the other dispatcher has to get his permission before using it.

In the case of NCRR from Cary to Raleigh, I believe the NS dispatchers have control over all the "straight" moves, *including* the ones on CSX-owned track -- I think this was part of the arrangement for bidirectional running -- but I may be totally mistaken. Someone who knows the territory could explain what the actual dispatcher territories and signal arrangements are. Getting 91 off of the NCRR corridor onto the CSX corridor at Cary would require the permission of the CSX dispatcher.
 
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