Why Acela in the NEC?

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Two questions:
1st for George Harris.

And 2nd for GG-1.

What are the chances of a GG-1 being brought back to running condition and being main line certified for use on special workings? I always saw this loco as being an icon of American railways just as much as your average classic diesel loco from the 50s and 60s.
Aloha

None, unless some Tillionaire (is there one) got interested. To start you would have to cut the body apart to get the transformer out. The ones currently preserved all had the oil drained and filled with sand, The PCB in the transformer oil is so toxic to people and the environment. Just changing the transformer would then affect the rest of the electrical system. This is part why I would like to see a modern G design.
 
I maybe wrong, but the AEM7 is a 90 mph motor. The G's geared for freight were 90mph. the Passenger gearing was 100mph, but were noted for running faster. One with a burned out motor on one axle was noted in a Trains article that the G was not going to be beat by some foreign made AEM7, which all of today's units were built in Sweden.
Eric,

The AEM-7 is a 125 MPH motor and routinely pulls the regionals at that speed when on straightaways.
 
The AEM-7's were a Swedish design and used some Swedish parts, but were built in the USA by the Electro-Motive Division of General Motors. The "A" of "AEM" is for Swedish electrical manufacturer ASEA, and the "EM" is for Electro-Motive.

By every objective measure the AEM-7 is a huge improvement over the GG-1. They are faster, much more powerful, and less than half the weight.
 
Two questions:
1st for George Harris.

What kind of dispensation does the Acela have over the regionals on curved track, where I presume the tilt system takes over? For a rough idea, I know our Tilting Pendolinos usually have a 25mph increase over curve based speed restrictions. Are the Acelas working at their maximum tilting capacity or are there any restrictions in place due to clearance on the Northern sections?
Someone else will have to answer the details here. I do not know. I have never even seen an Acela in the flesh, having left the northeast before they began running. My understanding is that the tilt can not be used between New Haven and New York because of very close track centers. There are likely other areas as well, maybe a lot of them, since most of the northeast corridor has track spacing that would be considered substandard based on the current practices of any railroad in the country. I would be very surprised if the allowed difference would be as much as 25 mph.
 
The AEM-7's were a Swedish design and used some Swedish parts, but were built in the USA by the Electro-Motive Division of General Motors. The "A" of "AEM" is for Swedish electrical manufacturer ASEA, and the "EM" is for Electro-Motive.
Aloha

I thank you and Alan for correcting me about the manufacture and speed of the AEM7

By every objective measure the AEM-7 is a huge improvement over the GG-1. They are faster, much more powerful, and less than half the weight.
Does the AEM7 develop 6000 continuous and 9000 peak hp. that is the rating for the G? What I do like about the AEM7 is they are dependable motors moving lots of people on rails,

Mahalo
 
Two questions:
1st for George Harris.

What kind of dispensation does the Acela have over the regionals on curved track, where I presume the tilt system takes over? For a rough idea, I know our Tilting Pendolinos usually have a 25mph increase over curve based speed restrictions. Are the Acelas working at their maximum tilting capacity or are there any restrictions in place due to clearance on the Northern sections?
Someone else will have to answer the details here. I do not know. I have never even seen an Acela in the flesh, having left the northeast before they began running. My understanding is that the tilt can not be used between New Haven and New York because of very close track centers. There are likely other areas as well, maybe a lot of them, since most of the northeast corridor has track spacing that would be considered substandard based on the current practices of any railroad in the country. I would be very surprised if the allowed difference would be as much as 25 mph.
I'm not the best expert on this, so if someone knows better please feel free to correct me.

That said, I seem to recall that Acela was originally designed for a maximum 6 degree cant. Due to the close track centers, Amtrak had to restrict the system to a maximum 4 degree cant. I could be wrong on the number of degrees, but I'm pretty sure that the difference between the designed and actual is 2 degrees.

In any event Acela runs with the tilt on basically for the entire run, other than when on Metro North territory. The only time that the tilt goes off normally outside of MN territory, is when the train speed drops below 5 MPH or so. Otherwise the distinctive whine from the tilt mechanism is quite audible during the entire ride.

Regarding the difference in speed, it can't be all that great since the running times aren't all the different between the regionals and the Acela's, when one backs out the extra stops that the regionals make. Going back to look at older schedules, a Metroliner making the same number of stops as an Acela between NYP and WAS only had a running time 10 minutes longer than the Acela did. And the Metroliner's top speed was 125 MPH, compared to Acela's top speed of 135 MPH.
 
Does the AEM7 develop 6000 continuous and 9000 peak hp. that is the rating for the G? What I do like about the AEM7 is they are dependable motors moving lots of people on rails, Mahalo
I'm guessing here to say that it's peak hp, but I honestly don't know. All I can say is that OTOL reports the AEM-7's hp as 7,000. But I don't know if that's continous, peak, or both.
 
100+ years old does not necessarily equal bad. South of New York a lot of the line is quite straight and could be operated faster, but would require some significant work, including:
Replace the overhead system. The existing overhead is used as the excuse for the present 135 mph speed limit south of Washington. Much of the system is functionalally obsolete. The replacement does not have to be married to changing the existing 25 cycle 11,000 volt system to 60 cycle 25,000 volts. These are two separate issues.

Increase the track centers. Much of the track is at 13'-0" spacing or closer. I have heard numbers as low as 12'-8" My opinion is that this has to be just barely inside safe limits. Spacing should be 15'-0" or greater in my opinion even at 135 mph, and I would think 16'-6" if you want to run over that up to say about 200 mph or higher. When we get to 200 plus we are in the unknowns where some seriousl aerodynamic studies are needed.
What routine maintenance happens on this track and overhead power system? Don't the ties and the rails have a finite life? Would it be possible to move some of the tracks over a couple feet while replacing parts of the tracks, or is there some system for inspection that only replaces lengths of a couple hundred feet at a time? (I'm also thinking of how, in Massachusetts, the policy is that when highway bridges over tracks happen to be rebuilt, they're built with 21' clearance to allow double stack container cars. The system isn't really compatible with such tall cars yet, because about 1/6 of the bridges are still too low, but that will eventually address the issue without incurring a huge cost all at once.)

On the north end, the low level draw bridges should really be replaced with higher level fixed bridges, which will improve timekeeping and allow more trains without inconveniencing the weekend admirals.
How much will that cost? (I assume it's cheaper than saving five minutes on the southern part of the trip?)
 
The AEM-7's were a Swedish design and used some Swedish parts, but were built in the USA by the Electro-Motive Division of General Motors. The "A" of "AEM" is for Swedish electrical manufacturer ASEA, and the "EM" is for Electro-Motive.
Aloha

I thank you and Alan for correcting me about the manufacture and speed of the AEM7

By every objective measure the AEM-7 is a huge improvement over the GG-1. They are faster, much more powerful, and less than half the weight.
Does the AEM7 develop 6000 continuous and 9000 peak hp. that is the rating for the G? What I do like about the AEM7 is they are dependable motors moving lots of people on rails,

Mahalo
The GG-1 had a continuous rating of 4620hp and a short-term maximum rating of 8500hp at about 65mph. The AEM-7 continous rating is about 5000hp with a short-term maximum rating of 7000hp. Those numbers are somewhat higher with the 20 or so AC traction rebuilds.

The demise of the GG-1 can be attribited to many factors, but it all comes down to age and outdated design. The PCB issue, in and of itself, could have been remediated. But the units were already 40 years old and were literally falling apart. The issues, in no particular order, were:

- The PCB-laden transformers

- Increasing serious cracking of the frames and body

- Inability to be converted to permit multiple voltage and frequency supply power

- Inadequate speed to permit use as a replacement for the Budd Metroliner EMU's

- Designed for steam heat passenger cars

The GE E60 was originally to be the replacement for the GG-1, but that did not work out. The AEM-7 did.

The last Amtrak GG-1 was retired in 1981. The last GG-1 in revenue service was retired by NJ Transit in 1983.

Check out the following American Society of Mechanical Engineers paper for some good info on the GG-1:

ASME GG-1
 
So while many may appear to be commuters, I don't know many that would have the money to use Acela as their daily ride to work, or be dumb enough to live far enough away that they would have to.
I do know of one guy who lives in Wilmington, works in Washington, and commutes on Acela....
 
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I do know of one guy who lives in Wilmington, works in Washington, and commutes on Acela....
But I was under the impression that senators only show up at work in Washington something very roughly like half the number of days of the year that the average American worker shows up at his/her job, and that there's an expectation that senators will spend some time in their home state talking with the lobbyists employed by the largest businesses in their state, or something like that. That's not quite the same as commuting to work every single day.

Also, do you have clear evidence that on days when the senate has been in session and is going to be in session the next day, he tends to go home to Deleware and then comes back to Washington the next day? It seems like a hotel room wouldn't be any more expensive than the Acela trip in that case...
 
But I was under the impression that senators only show up at work in Washington something very roughly like half the number of days of the year that the average American worker shows up at his/her job, and that there's an expectation that senators will spend some time in their home state talking with the lobbyists employed by the largest businesses in their state, or something like that. That's not quite the same as commuting to work every single day.
True, but it's a huge difference over maintaining a second residence inside the Beltway, which almost every congressman/senator does. And commuting on the order of 50-100 days a year for that distance, by Acela, is certainly noteworthy.

Also, do you have clear evidence that on days when the senate has been in session and is going to be in session the next day, he tends to go home to Deleware and then comes back to Washington the next day? It seems like a hotel room wouldn't be any more expensive than the Acela trip in that case...
I don't have "clear evidence", but I've read multiple articles which state clearly (and which quote Biden as saying) that he goes home every night to Delaware to be with his family, a commitment he made as a single father to young children after the death of his wife decades ago, and has kept since. Given that the Acela isn't likely to be *more* expensive than a senator-worthy hotel room inside the Beltway, I'd believe him (and don't see his choice to be unreasonable). It certainly wouldn't work for any Senator not from Philadelphia, Wilmington, Baltimore, or NoVa/Richmond (by Regional) and maybe Charlottesville (Crescent), though.
 
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... while the flight time is, obviously, much faster, in total travel time Acela usually wins.
The "which is faster, airplane or train" question has been around a lot longer than I thought, I discovered yesterday! The best train photograph I've seen in quite a while:

race.jpg
 
I wonder when that photograph was taken. I believe the current FAA rules require something like 500 feet above ground level as the minimum altitude except during takeoff/landing/cropdusting/airshows under certain conditions (and lately with the growth of cell towers etc there are some very good reasons to not violate that rule), and that photograph gives the impression that the plane wasn't much more than 20-50 feet above the ground. And finding a currentish small airplane that can do significantly better than 80mph is not terribly difficult.
 
I wonder when that photograph was taken. I believe the current FAA rules require something like 500 feet above ground level as the minimum altitude except during takeoff/landing/cropdusting/airshows under certain conditions (and lately with the growth of cell towers etc there are some very good reasons to not violate that rule), and that photograph gives the impression that the plane wasn't much more than 20-50 feet above the ground. And finding a currentish small airplane that can do significantly better than 80mph is not terribly difficult.
1931. There weren't so many rules then! Also, stunts like this would sort of fall into the "airshow" category, I think. Railroads did lots of crazy things back then, like tug-a-war games where two locomotives would each try to drag the other one across a bridge.

It's amazing to think that in 1931, 80 mph was considered slow for a passenger train at top speed. Nowadays, 79's the upper limit in most places!
 
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1931. There weren't so many rules then! Also, stunts like this would sort of fall into the "airshow" category, I think. Railroads did lots of crazy things back then, like tug-a-war games where two locomotives would each try to drag the other one across a bridge.
It was a far, far, far, far less regulated world. My father, single and adverturesome in the late 1920's obtained a pilots license at about the age of 20. My mother talked about him taking her up when they were dating, this would be late 1930's, and doing loops and acrobatics over the Memphis riverfront. That would be in sight of downtown. But then the Stearman biplanes that were the primary training aircraft in WW2 had a top speed of about 75 mph (don't remember exactly) and a stall speed of under 40 mph. The only instrumentation was a level bubble and a compass. No radio. He instructed primary in WW2, and later flew transport, being considered overage for combat. They did their instruction from cow pastures, literally. I asked him once what the base airport they used (Jackson TN) had for navigation aids at the time, and his answer was, "a wind sock."
 
That race between aircraft, boat and train was indeed nothing more than 'entertainment' to be broadcast at cinemas. There was a slightly serious aspect of showing the World how fast a steam locomotive can run though. I've got the movie clip of that little escapade somewhere, and if I can get it onto my PC, I'll upload it onto youtube for your viewing pleasure.

Re the line speeds, the 1930s was famous, or maybe infamous, for the LMS and LNER to race each other to Scotland. There was little regard given to safety, and passenger comfort was not really seen as a concern! It was all about getting there first. The sheer effort that the driver and fireman had to put in was immense. I believe though that there were very, very few accidents as a result of speeding. Drivers were trusted to use their knowledge and almost set their own speed limits.

I would imagine Acela could acheive BS -DC in under5 hours if the same laws were applied. And I'm being serious!
 
Re the line speeds, the 1930s was famous, or maybe infamous, for the LMS and LNER to race each other to Scotland. There was little regard given to safety, and passenger comfort was not really seen as a concern! It was all about getting there first. The sheer effort that the driver and fireman had to put in was immense. I believe though that there were very, very few accidents as a result of speeding. Drivers were trusted to use their knowledge and almost set their own speed limits.
I would imagine Acela could acheive BS -DC in under5 hours if the same laws were applied. And I'm being serious!
Well, to pull things slightly more towards topic... we had our races on this side of the pond, too, between the PRR and NYC, New York to Chicago. Slightly more regard for safety, perhaps, and I think a lot more for comfort (though that was as much Pullman as the railroads). But it was still all about making the run in under 20 hours... under 19 hours... under 18 hours... pushing for 17 hours... the trains timed to enter the "racetrack" parallel main lines into Chicago at almost the same time... The drive for improvement seemed much, much stronger when there was another railroad to compete with.

And now the Lake Shore is scheduled for 20 hours, and tends to take, well, 22 would be a kind estimate I imagine. Even 17 hours on that route wouldn't put Amtrak in competition with the airlines (whereas the PRR and NYC were actually vying for the fastest route of any sort connecting the cities). Two competing railroads probably is unachievable (and would be uneffective) now. But this makes me wonder:

Many of America's great steps forward were the result of competition, and there are really two different goals--speed and comfort--and one of these Amtrak already has a tremendous upper hand in (while in the NEC, speed is not terrible either). How much would playing up their big leg up on the airlines benefit them if they ran a marketing campaign specifically focusing on that competition, actually directly comparing air versus rail in the NEC? I don't get the sense they've ever tried that. The PRR and NYC very directly advertised competitively, on both aspects (ie, "The Water Level Route"--NYC had to, having 50 extra miles to their route and no electrification for a big speed boost on the eastern end). Other railroads did the same, playing up comfort over speed (ie, C&O's "Sleep Like a Kitten, Arrive Fresh as a Daisy"). It worked then. I think it could work now.
 
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Re the line speeds, the 1930s was famous, or maybe infamous, for the LMS and LNER to race each other to Scotland. There was little regard given to safety, and passenger comfort was not really seen as a concern! It was all about getting there first. The sheer effort that the driver and fireman had to put in was immense. I believe though that there were very, very few accidents as a result of speeding. Drivers were trusted to use their knowledge and almost set their own speed limits.
Still off-topic! Not sure the comments about comfort are fair, but certainly the case that speed limits were interpeted liberally! The LNER East Coast line limit was 90mph when the high speed services were introduced in 1935. However on the inaugural run, a maximum speed of 112mph was reached - the driver claimed the speedo on his A4 Pacific only indicated 90!! On this run, the train covered 27 miles in 15 minutes at an average speed of 108mph!

The run was recorded (incorrectly indicating a maximum of 'only' 104mph)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=P2jEM0_gkKg&...feature=related

And in case Acela fans are suffering from withdrawal symptoms:

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-SXsBBltrOQ
 
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I agree with VentureForth on the trainsets for all NEC services. Thinking (very) long term, the entire eastern seaboard could be electrified from BOS to MIA, with real high speed track and tilting trainsets. EMU's are moe efficient than locomotive hauled trains, and I read somewhere Shinkansen's (EMU) cosume 50% less energy than TGV/Acela(Power Cars). The trainsets could have maybe 350-400 seats/ 8 cars-10 cars w/ day compartments, business class, and coach class with a cafe. No matter what, Amtrak needs new equip.. There is hope w/ the Train Cars Act!
 
Example, the 12 car Shinkansen trainset used in Taiwan: 965 seats. No compartments. 11 cars at 3+2 seating and one premium car with 2+2 seating. (the cars are 11'-2" wide.)

One primary reason for the lower energy consumption of the Shinkansen is running on an alignment with no speed restrictions. Therefore, they accelerate out of the station to the top speed they will run and stay there until needing to brake for the next stop. The Northeast corridor on the other hand is an almost continuous series of speed up - brake - speed up - brake between actual stops due the the multiple speed restrictions on the alignment.
 
I agree with VentureForth on the trainsets for all NEC services. Thinking (very) long term, the entire eastern seaboard could be electrified from BOS to MIA, with real high speed track and tilting trainsets. EMU's are moe efficient than locomotive hauled trains, and I read somewhere Shinkansen's (EMU) cosume 50% less energy than TGV/Acela(Power Cars). The trainsets could have maybe 350-400 seats/ 8 cars-10 cars w/ day compartments, business class, and coach class with a cafe. No matter what, Amtrak needs new equip.. There is hope w/ the Train Cars Act!
Amen to that, man. I realize it's pie in the sky talk to an extent (heck, what isn't these days, short of pondering minor timetable changes and track work detours), but on cool, sunny weekend days, as I daydream walking the dog, it's not too hard to imagine High Speed running up and down the eastern seaboard from DC to Atlanta and from DC to Miami.

And to be honest, there's more to be optimistic about recently than there has been in recent years, to be sure. At just the last NARP Regional meeting in Baltimore this past April, the head of the FRA relayed his fervent hope for just such a high speed rail network along the east coast. Then again, we're all preaching to the choir, I suppose, when we really need to be focusing on preaching to our friends, neighbors, and importantly, congressmen.

Rafi
 
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I agree with VentureForth on the trainsets for all NEC services. Thinking (very) long term, the entire eastern seaboard could be electrified from BOS to MIA, with real high speed track and tilting trainsets. EMU's are moe efficient than locomotive hauled trains, and I read somewhere Shinkansen's (EMU) cosume 50% less energy than TGV/Acela(Power Cars). The trainsets could have maybe 350-400 seats/ 8 cars-10 cars w/ day compartments, business class, and coach class with a cafe. No matter what, Amtrak needs new equip.. There is hope w/ the Train Cars Act!
EMUs probably also mean that the coaches now have to meet locomotive inspection requirements. On the other hand, with the way the Acela coaches are attached to the locomotives, I think locomotive maintenance effectively requires pulling the whole trainset out of service. (I think I read somewhere that the TGV has articulated, semi permanently coupled sets of coaches, but there are traditional couplers attaching the locomotive to the rest of the trainset.)
 
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At just the last NARP Regional meeting in Baltimore this past April, the head of the FRA relayed his fervent hope for just such a high speed rail network along the east coast.
Did he have anything to say about what Congress has been saying about this idea? There is an FRA loan program, but I don't think it's currently big enough to pay for something like this...

And did he say anything about what specific route they have in mind?
 
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