Why is Amtrak coach more expensive than flying?

[Ryan]

He's talking about the MARC Brunswick line. Only Amtrak service there is the Capitol Limited, which is unusable for commuting.

Not sure what it has to do with this topic, though.

I doubt that there is any way that driving is cheaper in this case (depending on exactly where you work). When I commuted on the Penn Line, my monthly pass cost the same amount as parking alone would, so the train was much cheaper.

 

[Ziv]

The return of an old topic, but it is always interesting to see what people think. I agree with our Ukranian guest from page one. Amtrak should consider re-furbing some of the old cars into Couchette cars, both with 4 and 6 seat/bunk options at first to see which would be more popular. Each compartment would have two benches facing each other with arm rails to divide the seats, with either two very roomy seats on each side or 3 slightly less room seats. The bench/bunk would be nearly 7 feet wide so the seats would be room as would the bunks when they folded down at night. I have ridden Couchettes in China and Eastern Europe and they allow a fairly high amount of travelers per train while allowing for a very comfortable sleep at night. I think the 4 bunk Couchettes would work the best but a second class/tourist option at a price point 20% less might be popular too. These options make an overnight train trip a real pleasure, plus you can fit in nearly as many people as a regular coach car.

On edit: I think Amtrak cars are a foot or two wider than Chinese cars because the Chinese cars have a 6'2" bench and a small hall that takes the entire width of the car. The more I think about it, the 4 seat couchettes would be like first class seats, really wide, because the entire car would only have two seats in width, though since the seats are arranged in pairs (back to back) so they would share their foot space, making their total density higher. So for Amtrak cars the 6 seat/bunk option might fit the width of the cars better, but the 3rd/upper bunk probably wouldn't be too popular. I have slept in the third bunk and it is a bit of a climb.

Page 12? Wow, this is a popular old topic! And I think 6 bunk couchettes would be even better out west where there is a SSL to split time with. I think the Couchettes would fill to 4 people most of the time and the 5th and 6th bunks would be there for really busy times.

 

[white rabbitt]

i live maybe a 7 minite drive from the royal oak amtrak station for me to fly to austin detroit-austin 444 on delta rt 278 coach on amtrak amtrak is cheaper

now u add business class rt and a roomette rt that round trip become's $689.70 and worth every penny amtrak beats flying every time :lol: :lol:

 

[dlagrua]

Its difficult to always do a one on one comparison between air fares and train fares. Both systems use a complex system of bucket fares and both fares can fluctuate wildly.

On Amtrak the former system allowed you to secure the lowest bucket fare when tickets opened up 11 months out. On some routes, fares now appear to open at medium bucket and stay there until a sales pattern starts to develop, while on others the fares can open at low or high bucket. I would say that Amtrak is now using route sales history to maximize revenue which IMO will result in lower revenues for them. My method now is to check several months out before my planned trip will take place and check many dates via Amsnag. In many cases you will still find some scattered low bucket fares. The key is to be flexible with the travel dates.

Airlines appear to use the first in lowest price formula and prices then rise steadily until the last passengers pays 5-7 times the fare of the early purchase fares. Its a more understandable formula.

Given all of the above I would venture to say that it is very difficult to state that rail travel costs more or less than air travel. Amtrak's coach fares are generally less than the airline coach fares for trips 1000 miles or less and more for longer trips. Come vacation time, we always take the train but we do not go coast to coast as we can't spare 4 days and three nights travel time each way. Our vacations are typically to cities like Orlando, Chicago, New Orleans and whatever else we could reach in an overnight trip. On the Autotrain we occasionally take it one way and drive back for some sightseeing along the way. On this years trip in May, in view of the the high price of gasoline, we have decided to take the A/T both ways.

 

[Shanghai]

I am an officer in a volunteer organization that has meetings around the country.

Most of the people who participate in the meetings always fly and give me the "business"

for traveling by train. In early May, we have a meeting in Kansas City on Monday, then

we have a meeting on Wednesday in Chicago. I told them I was taking the train on Tuesday

and I would be happy to book them too. The flight would have cost $216 - $266 each. I booked

them in a roomette (shared for 2) on the train for $227 for two. There will be 5 of us on

the Southwest Chief and they are excited for the trip.

 

[dn4192]

I guess it depends on where you are going, there is no chance I can find a flight from Indy to Philly anywhere near the cost of $85 which is what a one way ticket on Amtrak is going to cost me...

 

[GAT]

I also consider the train trip as part of the vacation - when I was younger, someone used the slogan Getting there is half the fun I don't think it was Amtrak, but now it should be

Regrettably, it was Greyhound (I think).

 

[Anderson]

Looking at the date of this topic, it was from 2008. Airline fares took a dip during 2009 but went back up.

In a lot of cases, Amtrak is roughly on par with flying a non-"no frills" airline (for example, it's about $100-120 to take the train to Florida with some decent planning); in some cases, it is light-years ahead of the airlines (going to Des Moines, getting a sleeper is on par with airline coach, and that's even if you write off a large amount for cab fare from Osceola to Des Moines). However, this is going to vary based on a lot of factors.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

In my experience Amtrak sleepers are almost always a premium over flying. Amtrak coach can be cheaper, especially near the departure date, but not by enough to make sitting in a chair surrounded by noisy folks who are prevented from taking a shower for 1-3 days anywhere near worth it.

 

[Shortline]

In my experience Amtrak sleepers are almost always a premium over flying. Amtrak coach can be cheaper, especially near the departure date, but not by enough to make sitting in a chair surrounded by noisy folks who are prevented from taking a shower for 1-3 days anywhere near worth it.

Exactly. I regularly price train travel for business, but only rarely does it make sense. A roomette for an overnight trip is typically several hundred dollars more than an airplane ticket. Add in the cost in time, and it's prohibitively expensive 99% of the itme. And, air travel isn't that bad, especially if you're a Frequent Flyer-I RARELY get to the airport more than 45 minutes prior to departure. By printing boarding passes at home, or more commonly, just scanning my iphone at security, I can whiz right through in under 10 minutes. Sky Priority has it's benefits,especially the regular upgrades and special security lines!

Sure, coach train travel is a bargain, but, there is no way I'd spend more than 8 hours or so in coach, and never an overnight. Not my thing.

 

[RRUserious]

I refuse to read this whole thread. Fact is when you see ultra-low air fares, you are seeing consolidator prices. Airlines have complicated procedures for achieving high load factors with max revenue. If you read some writing on travel, it will all be explained. I guess I'd dummy up a budget for a given trip, figure out how big a deal the tickets are in that budget. That should indicate how much a sweat to break over all this . Next, when you are flying ANYWHERE but major hub to major hub, you are on a regional airline that code shares with one of the big ones. You but a "Continental ticket" but you'll never see a Continental seat. So then do you really want to fly the actual airline? Continental washes its hands of anything that happens to you on a codeshare airline. If everything goes swimmingly, great. If anything annoys you, THEN you find out "choosing Continental" gets you nothing at all. In my youth, flying was so much simpler. But the obsession with pennies or dollars less in ticket price have pretty much forced the flight industry into this circus. People log onto some Internet site, take what they see at face value, and lowball it. So why should the airlines care about them at all. Flyers are just cattle. Success means herding the cattle onto your plane (or a codeshare plane) and turning a deaf ear when the cattle complain.

Flying is also about crowding nowadays. I couldnt BELIEVE how much room my coach seat had after decades of flying. Worth paying more? Not to most travelers, I guess.

So if you want to be in the herd, buy from Kayak. If you want to travel and have a good time, resist that lowball urge.

 

[Ziv]

I refuse to read this whole thread. Fact is when you see ultra-low air fares, you are seeing consolidator prices. Airlines have complicated procedures for achieving high load factors with max revenue. If you read some writing on travel, it will all be explained. I guess I'd dummy up a budget for a given trip, figure out how big a deal the tickets are in that budget. That should indicate how much a sweat to break over all this . Next, when you are flying ANYWHERE but major hub to major hub, you are on a regional airline that code shares with one of the big ones. You but a "Continental ticket" but you'll never see a Continental seat. So then do you really want to fly the actual airline? Continental washes its hands of anything that happens to you on a codeshare airline. If everything goes swimmingly, great. If anything annoys you, THEN you find out "choosing Continental" gets you nothing at all. In my youth, flying was so much simpler. But the obsession with pennies or dollars less in ticket price have pretty much forced the flight industry into this circus. People log onto some Internet site, take what they see at face value, and lowball it. So why should the airlines care about them at all. Flyers are just cattle. Success means herding the cattle onto your plane (or a codeshare plane) and turning a deaf ear when the cattle complain.

Flying is also about crowding nowadays. I couldnt BELIEVE how much room my coach seat had after decades of flying. Worth paying more? Not to most travelers, I guess.

So if you want to be in the herd, buy from Kayak. If you want to travel and have a good time, resist that lowball urge.

RU, talking about cattle, on the thread about the person that got killed by an Amtrak train, the conductor referred to us Amtrak passengers as 'talking cattle'. So the being treated like cattle thing is not limited to airlines.

 

[Ryan]

I think that you failed to take that remark in the spirit that it was offered.

 

[RRUserious]

Maybe I should have said sardines rather than cattle. Because of the lowball kneejerk reaction, airlines have gotten into the mode of giving precisely what the lowball price buys, a tight fitting seat in a jammed plane. I don't understand why travelers who resort to Kayak and its like expect a quality product. To me it is like going to a surplus store for everything. Sure the price is skimpy, but the inventory is rejects. One problem today is a way to find a middle ground where you pay more than minimum and get the extra quality you are willing to pay for. The frequent flyer can sample the product often enough to sort out the overpriced cheap product from the moderately priced travel value. You need to do a fair amount of travel to make the mistakes and eventually ferret out the quality provider.

One thing is sure to me. A simple online comparison of the lowest Kayak price to Amtrak's coach price is way short of that level of sophistication. The infrequent traveler (which is the class I have been in)is going to be misled. I've done mostly economy class flights, so when I entered the Amtrak coach and saw that the leg room exceeded what I've had in First Class on planes, I was frankly surprised and pleased.

The real issue is time. A lot of people simply cannot afford the time or are unwilling to give it up. Their mode of transportation is not meant to figure large in their trip. They are pretty much stuck going by air. I am happy I am rich in time and can afford rail travel.

 

[Ziv]

I think that you failed to take that remark in the spirit that it was offered.

Ryan, my Dad was a conductor on Amtrak trains. If he ever referred to a person that committed suicide by train as a 'trespasser', not once but multiple times without ever sounding saddened by it all, I would have been disappointed. If he had said it about someone that he had no idea about before they died, someone who could have been a commuter trying to get home on time.... And yes, my Dad probably got short tempered too.

But to have the same the same conductor refer to his passengers as talking cattle pretty much precludes me thinking I was taking the comment in a way that is inconsistent with the way it was offered.

I think the vast majority of Amtrak personnel are great people. But a certain part of the Amtrak team probably does think of us as 'talking cattle'.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I believe I have read many posts on AU where the coach passengers were referred to as cattle (when they're waiting to board or going to the train to board), so I think the conductor said that in jest because of these comments, not because s/he thinks of the passengers as cattle.

 

[RRUserious]

The POINT is that management configures airline travel to match the rock bottom price travelers have come to expect. I remember rumors of "standing only" tickets. Having zero concern for the quality of service is the stupidest thing that travelers do. They buy tickets like they are getting stuff off Pricegrabber.com. But, hey, at least don't expect the companies to treat you better than you are. Alfred Kahn took the position that free market economics were what airlines needed. I think his wisdom was about as shrewd as Alan Greenspans. Free markets produce concentration at the level of low-priced crap. If there's any quality left anywhere, it is because there are consumers who are too smart to just look for "the best price". Those consumers are the dike that holds back the tidal wave of cheap crap consumerism.

And railroads are valuied everywhere except in the USA. We are the world leader in following false gods. We know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

 

[Anderson]

In my experience Amtrak sleepers are almost always a premium over flying. Amtrak coach can be cheaper, especially near the departure date, but not by enough to make sitting in a chair surrounded by noisy folks who are prevented from taking a shower for 1-3 days anywhere near worth it.

You're correct insofar as the Des Moines situation is an extreme outlier (the numbers look a bit better at the moment...oh, I only need a nine month advance purchase so that a cattle car airline ticket will be cheaper than a sleeping car with included meals...and even now, coach is still on par or cheaper from what I can tell). However, if you restored through service in Roanoke (ha!), I think you'd find a similar story. There are a couple of other "bad" air markets like that. Not many, but a couple.

Sorry for my explosive sarcasm...here's what I've come to the conclusion of: I will pay for decent service, I will pay for decent comfort. Witness the Acela, witness springing for a roomette on the NEC. Given the choice of it, there are plenty of routes that I would spring for a mid-bucket roomette on. NPN-NYP is one that jumps to mind (considering that I've done this RVR-NYP multiple times). I consider that to be service and comfort. "Service and comfort" is the operative phrasing here, and that phrasing being a good descriptor of what I feel I (generally) get with Amtrak.

Though the experience varies, the problem with the airlines collectively (and I say this without intending to malign those that do their best on the service front, though I do blanket them all with blame for not speaking up on the TSA...it may be a logical decision, but that does not mean I won't blame them for it) is that with the whole flying experience, the feeling I have is that I can choose how much I pay to be treated like I don't matter and run through a security theater that would be too expensive if it were free. At that point, yes, I will search out the cheapest cost for traveling...because if I'm going to be treated like crap, I may as well spend as little doing so as possible.

Of course, part of the problem with flying these days is that I suspect that comfort there has fallen victim to a tragedy of the commons: The guy willing to spring for an intermediate-class ticket (be it BC, E+, or something else) not infrequently has to throw out a lot more to cross-subsidize the guy in coach who got a bottom-dollar ticket. I am legitimately left wondering if we wouldn't be better off paying full fare for the briefcase...

...and then I remember Spirit Airlines wanting to, at one point, charge a fee for carry-on luggage. Oops.

Anyhow...enough with the rambling, I've said enough. If I'm offered a decent product, I'll go for it. Amtrak does, the airlines do not, and therefore my money and my time go to Amtrak. I have a good time and I enjoy getting to where I'm going. That counts for a lot. And hey, sometimes it even does come in cheaper than the relevant airfare.

 

[Shawn Ryu]

The POINT is that management configures airline travel to match the rock bottom price travelers have come to expect. I remember rumors of "standing only" tickets. Having zero concern for the quality of service is the stupidest thing that travelers do. They buy tickets like they are getting stuff off Pricegrabber.com. But, hey, at least don't expect the companies to treat you better than you are. Alfred Kahn took the position that free market economics were what airlines needed. I think his wisdom was about as shrewd as Alan Greenspans. Free markets produce concentration at the level of low-priced crap. If there's any quality left anywhere, it is because there are consumers who are too smart to just look for "the best price". Those consumers are the dike that holds back the tidal wave of cheap crap consumerism.

And railroads are valuied everywhere except in the USA. We are the world leader in following false gods. We know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Railroads are valued here, just not for passengers. Freight is where its at, profit wise anyway.

Australia virtually has no passenger rail service, at least not interctiy. We could be worse off.

 

[RRUserious]

Oh, to get Nichols and May to do a sketch like this on economy air travel. :lol:

Economy Air

 

[dlagrua]

I believe I have read many posts on AU where the coach passengers were referred to as cattle (when they're waiting to board or going to the train to board), so I think the conductor said that in jest because of these comments, not because s/he thinks of the passengers as cattle.

If coach passengers can be referred to as cattle, certainly airline passengers can be referred to as sardines. Airline seats are set on tracks and the lower the price goes the closer the seats become. Closer seats and less legroom equates to more seating in a plane. If it keeps going like this, why before you know it your knees will be sitting under your chin. Air travel may be cheap but it is disgusting. Once when I was still flying I sat next to a guy who's nose was dripping like a faucet, another time I got the center seat and two extra large people sat on either side of me; talk about cramped.

As soon as the TSA was created, the X-Ray machines installed and the shoes had to come off, I stopped flying. I refuse to be treated as an animal and join all the sheeples who participate in the degrading, crowded, filthy, dehumanizing conditions of air travel. I'm convinced that you could make a law where every airline passenger has to strip completely naked and no one would say a word. You'd have to be brain dead to submit to the control crap that they want you to submit to!

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I believe I have read many posts on AU where the coach passengers were referred to as cattle (when they're waiting to board or going to the train to board), so I think the conductor said that in jest because of these comments, not because s/he thinks of the passengers as cattle.

If coach passengers can be referred to as cattle, certainly airline passengers can be referred to as sardines. Airline seats are set on tracks and the lower the price goes the closer the seats become. Closer seats and less legroom equates to more seating in a plane. If it keeps going like this, why before you know it your knees will be sitting under your chin. Air travel may be cheap but it is disgusting. Once when I was still flying I sat next to a guy who's nose was dripping like a faucet, another time I got the center seat and two extra large people sat on either side of me; talk about cramped.

As soon as the TSA was created, the X-Ray machines installed and the shoes had to come off, I stopped flying. I refuse to be treated as an animal and join all the sheeples who participate in the degrading, crowded, filthy, dehumanizing conditions of air travel. I'm convinced that you could make a law where every airline passenger has to strip completely naked and no one would say a word. You'd have to be brain dead to submit to the control crap that they want you to submit to!

I rarely travel and when I have flown, I've not had any problems, thank goodness.

I would love to be able to take the train everytime, but time & money have always been a problem for me. I now have paid vacation, but the money situation is still not good, so I will be flying to SLC in August to greet my 1st grandchild since I'm still paying off my trip (with my other daughter) to UT on the NER/CL/CZ last November.

We were blessed on our flight back as the two middle seats (we both wanted window seats, so I put my daughter in the seat in front of mine) were empty even though I had checked the seats online before our trip and saw that they were "taken". I'm guessing they either upgraded to FC or canceled. I know I can't expect that on my next trip.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I believe I have read many posts on AU where the coach passengers were referred to as cattle (when they're waiting to board or going to the train to board), so I think the conductor said that in jest because of these comments, not because s/he thinks of the passengers as cattle.

The term "cattle" is not a neutral term. It is a derogatory term. I'm not aware of any positive way to use it or to interpret it.

 

[pldenc44]

The "cattle-car" airline concept has revolutionized travel and allows Americans to get anywhere in the country at 400 MPH in a matter of a few hours for a couple hundred bucks (or less). It changed our way of life for the better by making travel cheap and fast. Yeah it stinks to be crammed in there, but how else would I get home from college for Thanksgiving on a student budget? If you want first-class service/comfort, buy a first-class ticket. Most people would rather suffer the cheap seats to get from point A to point B.

If passenger rail is ever going to thrive, they better start figuring out how to offer tickets at half the price of the airlines. More seats per coach, more cars per consist.

Sad, but true. If Amtrak refuses to do what it takes to be profitable, why should taxpayers subsidize train-enthusiasts' land-cruises?

 

[trainviews]

The "cattle-car" airline concept has revolutionized travel and allows Americans to get anywhere in the country at 400 MPH in a matter of a few hours for a couple hundred bucks (or less). It changed our way of life for the better by making travel cheap and fast. Yeah it stinks to be crammed in there, but how else would I get home from college for Thanksgiving on a student budget? If you want first-class service/comfort, buy a first-class ticket. Most people would rather suffer the cheap seats to get from point A to point B.

If passenger rail is ever going to thrive, they better start figuring out how to offer tickets at half the price of the airlines. More seats per coach, more cars per consist.

Sad, but true. If Amtrak refuses to do what it takes to be profitable, why should taxpayers subsidize train-enthusiasts' land-cruises?

You're getting it wrong. The biggest cost for the airlines is fuel. To get the plane off the ground takes a lot and it's an almost fixed cost no matter how many people are on board. So there is great savings in cramming as many passengers in there as possible.

As for trains, fuel is a minor cost - the big one is staff, which is much more expensive due to the longer running times (more paid hours). Even adding extra cars is not too expensive fuelwise and can be done until the train is very long (if you have spare cars). The savings in cramming that extra row of passengers in there is minor.

Plus, you've got to have a selling point. For airlines it has been time, and for longer hauls they really are unbeatable. For a while it has also been price, but the high fuel prices are jacking up prices especially on routes with lower ridership and/or less competition. While I agree that the low airfares have democratized long distance travel tremedously, that era seems to be waning outside the flights between major hubs. I also agree that the market - the passengers - have clearly decided to wheigh cost over comfortability. Otherwise first class would be a hit.

But one thing is saving 50 percent on putting up with discomfort. For the train that saving would be 10 percent max, and it would still be slower than flying except on short trips. Less saving for more discomfort for longer time - not exactly a winner. Add the competition with driving in the mix - again the selling point for trains is comfort and maybe the ability to work on the way, which is not really possible in a plane either because of the lack of space.

So for trains the best economy is clealy to offer a decent level of comfort. It can do so at prices competitive with uncomfortable air travel, and that will make a share of the market which is not too time sensitive choose the train. Of course this equation (time, price, comfort, accessibility) changes for individual routes, making some more successful than others and for indivdual persons or even different situations the same person is taking the journey in.