Winter weather

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ceo418

Train Attendant
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Sep 4, 2012
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I know that extreme heat will have an impact on train travel. Looking forward to December, though, how often does Amtrak get majorly impacted by cold weather/snow? I'm thinking in particular of the Empire Builder, but I guess most other trains would have an opportunity at some point to encounter a storm.
 
It takes a fairly serious winter storm to significantly impact Amtrak operations, but those types of storms do in fact happen every winter. Just keep in mind those

same storms generally foul up the airlines...though with the airlines you sometimes have the option of being re-routed around a storm...rarely an option on Amtrak.

Speaking of the EB specifically, one December I was booked on it from PDX to MSP and the train was canceled 2 days in a row due to blizzard conditions in eastern

Washington...I was able to buy a last-minute plane ticket, ironically enough, for less than the price of the train ticket. But other times I've taken the EB during winter with

zero problems. Like many things, it's a case of buy your ticket, take your chance.
 
It takes a fairly serious winter storm to significantly impact Amtrak operations, but those types of storms do in fact happen every winter. Just keep in mind those

same storms generally foul up the airlines...though with the airlines you sometimes have the option of being re-routed around a storm...rarely an option on Amtrak.

Speaking of the EB specifically, one December I was booked on it from PDX to MSP and the train was canceled 2 days in a row due to blizzard conditions in eastern

Washington...I was able to buy a last-minute plane ticket, ironically enough, for less than the price of the train ticket. But other times I've taken the EB during winter with

zero problems. Like many things, it's a case of buy your ticket, take your chance.
While less frequent than heat kinks, severely cold weather can cause rail breaks fron contraction. I was on the EB once and they had to send a hi-rail ahead of us to check for breaks. Also switches can freeze. Finally, while code lines are less common today than in the past, if there is one there can be problems with it. On that same EB trip we had to flag by all signals between Grand Forks and Fargo because an ice storm had coated the code line in ice, causing it to break and all signals to fail. It was a long trip.

I repeat, this things are somewhat less frequent than heat kinks.
 
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In Feb of last year we encounterd a rail break during the night in North Dakota (East Bound). I was headed back home to Florida & missed my CL connection in Chicago but Amtrak put me up for the night & I was on my way the next day. I enjoyed the extra unexpected travel day!!!
 
I have taken the EB many times during the winter and it is usually more reliable than when I fly out of kalispell. With that being said a couple times each year the hi-line does get some really severe weather and even the EB can be delayed or stopped for a time due to very cold temps and snow. But with the forecast for an El Nino winter the Rockies and Cascades should see minimal issues this winter. I enjoy the winter trips because everything usually looks so pristine with the snow cover and the travel thru the mountains is spectacular on the EB!
 
We took the City of New Orleans train a couple years at Christmas. We had had a snowstorm ending the night before. Fortunately they did a good job of clearing the interstate and we made it to the train station okay. The train comes from Chicago and it was coated with snow. I looked at the wheels and they had snow and ice on them. I thought "oh my how is that going to affect the train trip"? Well when we got to New Orleans, the wheels were bare of anything (ice or snow). Of course we went south so that is different than EB.
 
We took the City of New Orleans train a couple years at Christmas. We had had a snowstorm ending the night before. Fortunately they did a good job of clearing the interstate and we made it to the train station okay. The train comes from Chicago and it was coated with snow. I looked at the wheels and they had snow and ice on them. I thought "oh my how is that going to affect the train trip"? Well when we got to New Orleans, the wheels were bare of anything (ice or snow). Of course we went south so that is different than EB.
Cold weather and snow doesn't impact the train itself very much. What it mainly does affect is the track structure and possibly the signal system.
 
Hard snow does expose a design flaw with the Amfleets as the vestibules quickly fill up with snow to the point they literally have to be shoveled out so pax can pass through without getting trapped or slipping.
 
Hard snow does expose a design flaw with the Amfleets as the vestibules quickly fill up with snow to the point they literally have to be shoveled out so pax can pass through without getting trapped or slipping.
True, I was thinking Superliners. Horizons apparently have issues with plumbing freezes, too.
And air hoses freeze up, despite the best efforts of the spitters; it can become impossible to water the train or drain sewage; if really cold and they've come close a few times on the EB route, diesel fuel can turn to jelly; doors can freeze up; and if you have to do any switching work for any reason it can be a nightmare. Just to name a few other problems that can happen to the train.
 
I lived in Grand Forks, ND from January, 1972 to May, 1975 and road the Empire Builder or the North Coast Hiawatha around 50 times with many being in the winter. That was when the cars were steam heated and the train had a steam generator car on the end. The former GN and NP train cars were always nice and comfy even when the temperature was -50f outside. Even the inside of the domes stayed reasonably warm. The cars were still being maintained by BN and they did a good job.
 
Hard snow does expose a design flaw with the Amfleets as the vestibules quickly fill up with snow to the point they literally have to be shoveled out so pax can pass through without getting trapped or slipping.
True, I was thinking Superliners. Horizons apparently have issues with plumbing freezes, too.
And air hoses freeze up, despite the best efforts of the spitters; it can become impossible to water the train or drain sewage; if really cold and they've come close a few times on the EB route, diesel fuel can turn to jelly; doors can freeze up; and if you have to do any switching work for any reason it can be a nightmare. Just to name a few other problems that can happen to the train.
For over 50 years, aircraft have been flying at altitudes where the temperature outside can be as cold as -60 C. There is no excuse for trains' systems to get frozen. It's not much more expensive, and it doesn't take that much more power to run a simple heated wire around waste tubes and valves. When was the last time you rode a plane and as soon as you crossed 10,000 feet, "I'm sorry, but the lavatory is frozen. Please wait until we get back on the ground"? Yes - the lavatory on an airplane is in a balmy 72-degree cabin at an 8,000 foot pressure altitude. But the majority of the system - including the waste tank itself - is located outside the pressure vessel and subject to ambient temperatures. Those lines don't freeze. And these same aircraft that fly into Anchorage in the Winter still have to be serviced when they land.

The point being, there should be no excuse for system failures like frozen toilet and water systems as well as doors. Even the fuel tank should be heated (ever hear of jet fuel - a version of kerosene - freezing up in an airplane).

When it comes to mechanical operations, both aircraft and trains are treated to similar yet unique challenges. Ice on an airplane wing? Bad. Ice between couplers on a train? Bad. You can probably use a blow torch to melt the ice on a coupler, though. :D

But seriously. This is 2012. We have the weather problems figured out. Let's work in the solutions.
 
For over 50 years, aircraft have been flying at altitudes where the temperature outside can be as cold as -60 C. There is no excuse for trains' systems to get frozen. It's not much more expensive, and it doesn't take that much more power to run a simple heated wire around waste tubes and valves.
Heat tape requires power in order to create heat. During switching operations there is NO power.

When was the last time you rode a plane and as soon as you crossed 10,000 feet, "I'm sorry, but the lavatory is frozen. Please wait until we get back on the ground"? Yes - the lavatory on an airplane is in a balmy 72-degree cabin at an 8,000 foot pressure altitude. But the majority of the system - including the waste tank itself - is located outside the pressure vessel and subject to ambient temperatures. Those lines don't freeze. And these same aircraft that fly into Anchorage in the Winter still have to be serviced when they land.
I haven't noticed any pipes or tanks outside the aircraft mounted to the skin. Everything is within the "pressure vessel if it weren't, then pets in the cargo hold would die.

The point being, there should be no excuse for system failures like frozen toilet and water systems as well as doors. Even the fuel tank should be heated (ever hear of jet fuel - a version of kerosene - freezing up in an airplane).
The point being that in an aircraft all of those systems, save fuel tanks, are still within the skin of the airplane. Save Superliner's, pipes on the other train cars are outside the body of the car. That means that even residual heat quickly bleeds off when power is lost. On an aircraft there is still some insulation to help hold heat in when power is removed, which is rare.

That said, my understanding is that the new Viewliner II's will have a skirt & undercarriage around the sensitive equipment to help hold in some residual heat during switching operations.

When it comes to mechanical operations, both aircraft and trains are treated to similar yet unique challenges. Ice on an airplane wing? Bad. Ice between couplers on a train? Bad. You can probably use a blow torch to melt the ice on a coupler, though. :D
I haven't noticed any airplanes being separated resulting in a loss of power.
 
For over 50 years, aircraft have been flying at altitudes where the temperature outside can be as cold as -60 C. There is no excuse for trains' systems to get frozen. It's not much more expensive, and it doesn't take that much more power to run a simple heated wire around waste tubes and valves.
Heat tape requires power in order to create heat. During switching operations there is NO power.
Batteries, my friend. HEP keeps batteries charged and heat tape energized. Separate the cars, and the batteries sustain a residual amount of heat until HEP can be hooked back up. Ideally, no NEW accumulation would occur during that short period of time.

When was the last time you rode a plane and as soon as you crossed 10,000 feet, "I'm sorry, but the lavatory is frozen. Please wait until we get back on the ground"? Yes - the lavatory on an airplane is in a balmy 72-degree cabin at an 8,000 foot pressure altitude. But the majority of the system - including the waste tank itself - is located outside the pressure vessel and subject to ambient temperatures. Those lines don't freeze. And these same aircraft that fly into Anchorage in the Winter still have to be serviced when they land.
I haven't noticed any pipes or tanks outside the aircraft mounted to the skin. Everything is within the "pressure vessel if it weren't, then pets in the cargo hold would die.
I hope that you would take it on my word as an aircraft engineer that there are many places on an aircraft that are not pressurized that hold system equipment. There is a fairing that blends the wing to the fuselage that is very cavernous. This area often holds the vacuum waste system - in ambient temperature and pressure. Many other systems are routed through here - outside the fuselage, but in the fairing, including wire harnesses, hydraulic lines and fuel lines as well as waste lines. Yes - the cargo hold of a commercial aircraft is pressurized. But not under the floor in all cases. Nor in the boiler room. Keep in mind, the pressure vessel is for the comfort of the passengers and cargo. Where are all those wires and tubes? Where passengers and cargo are not - much are outside the pressure vessel.

The point being, there should be no excuse for system failures like frozen toilet and water systems as well as doors. Even the fuel tank should be heated (ever hear of jet fuel - a version of kerosene - freezing up in an airplane).
The point being that in an aircraft all of those systems, save fuel tanks, are still within the skin of the airplane. Save Superliner's, pipes on the other train cars are outside the body of the car. That means that even residual heat quickly bleeds off when power is lost. On an aircraft there is still some insulation to help hold heat in when power is removed, which is rare.
That's my whole argument. Starting with the Superliners, some consideration was given to the location of pipes. Someone working the Viewliner I's seemed to forget half their life is in the cold. There should be no excuse for any train car built after 1970 to have freezing issues. These problems have already been worked out, but cost and a lack of engineering discernment has allowed the problem to continue.
 
Here is also a mojor point. The NP and GN cars were built to standards by and for railroads that spent their lives operating in the coldest part of the lower 48 and they had learned how to handle it. That is not really the case for the current equipment built to generalized national standards. It is likely that some of the more extreme parts of the design for the cold, and for the heat like the southwest desert and hot-humid gulf states also for that matter, used by GN, NP, UP, SP, ACL, SAL, and such were scaled back as cost saving measures by people who thought they knew what they were dealing with but had no real understanding of the issues. As an aside, quite a few years back Southern sold some coaches to the QNS&L. Never heard how that turned out. For certain the worst of the winters in Appalachia would not hold a candle to winter in Laborador.

I lived in Grand Forks, ND from January, 1972 to May, 1975 and road the Empire Builder or the North Coast Hiawatha around 50 times with many being in the winter. That was when the cars were steam heated and the train had a steam generator car on the end. The former GN and NP train cars were always nice and comfy even when the temperature was -50f outside. Even the inside of the domes stayed reasonably warm. The cars were still being maintained by BN and they did a good job.
 
For over 50 years, aircraft have been flying at altitudes where the temperature outside can be as cold as -60 C. There is no excuse for trains' systems to get frozen. It's not much more expensive, and it doesn't take that much more power to run a simple heated wire around waste tubes and valves.
Heat tape requires power in order to create heat. During switching operations there is NO power.
Batteries, my friend. HEP keeps batteries charged and heat tape energized. Separate the cars, and the batteries sustain a residual amount of heat until HEP can be hooked back up. Ideally, no NEW accumulation would occur during that short period of time.
Space, my friend. Space that they don't have for still more batteries.

The point being, there should be no excuse for system failures like frozen toilet and water systems as well as doors. Even the fuel tank should be heated (ever hear of jet fuel - a version of kerosene - freezing up in an airplane).
The point being that in an aircraft all of those systems, save fuel tanks, are still within the skin of the airplane. Save Superliner's, pipes on the other train cars are outside the body of the car. That means that even residual heat quickly bleeds off when power is lost. On an aircraft there is still some insulation to help hold heat in when power is removed, which is rare.
That's my whole argument. Starting with the Superliners, some consideration was given to the location of pipes. Someone working the Viewliner I's seemed to forget half their life is in the cold. There should be no excuse for any train car built after 1970 to have freezing issues. These problems have already been worked out, but cost and a lack of engineering discernment has allowed the problem to continue.
There was no consideration given to the Superliners regarding the location of the pipes due to cold weather. The consideration was the bi-level nature of the car which left no room for anything under the floor and totally exposed to the elements. Seats & rooms exist in the space that in a Viewliner would be given over to storage tanks.
 
That's my whole argument. Starting with the Superliners, some consideration was given to the location of pipes. Someone working the Viewliner I's seemed to forget half their life is in the cold. There should be no excuse for any train car built after 1970 to have freezing issues. These problems have already been worked out, but cost and a lack of engineering discernment has allowed the problem to continue.
In fact, it is cars built after 1970 that tend to have these problems. Cars built for the railroads in earlier yeears for use in cold weather were built with that in mind, with insulation, etc over the pipes, and also had mechanical forces to fix any problems enroute. It was cost cutting designs of the Amtrak era that had the problems. The railroads knew they were working in cold weather, Amtrak doesn't seem to, and my opinion is they tended to throw away the lessons learned in the proven designs of years past.

Don't hear much problem about the Canadian. Built by Budd in 1955 (although most systems rebuilt in the early 1990s when they HEP'd them). But they weren't having problems that I saw with them on winter rides on the Canadian in the 1980s when they were in their original configuration with steam heat.
 
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The point being, there should be no excuse for system failures like frozen toilet and water systems as well as doors. Even the fuel tank should be heated (ever hear of jet fuel - a version of kerosene - freezing up in an airplane).
The point being that in an aircraft all of those systems, save fuel tanks, are still within the skin of the airplane. Save Superliner's, pipes on the other train cars are outside the body of the car. That means that even residual heat quickly bleeds off when power is lost. On an aircraft there is still some insulation to help hold heat in when power is removed, which is rare.
That's my whole argument. Starting with the Superliners, some consideration was given to the location of pipes. Someone working the Viewliner I's seemed to forget half their life is in the cold. There should be no excuse for any train car built after 1970 to have freezing issues. These problems have already been worked out, but cost and a lack of engineering discernment has allowed the problem to continue.
There was no consideration given to the Superliners regarding the location of the pipes due to cold weather. The consideration was the bi-level nature of the car which left no room for anything under the floor and totally exposed to the elements. Seats & rooms exist in the space that in a Viewliner would be given over to storage tanks.
How did the Hi-Levels deal with this?
 
The point being, there should be no excuse for system failures like frozen toilet and water systems as well as doors. Even the fuel tank should be heated (ever hear of jet fuel - a version of kerosene - freezing up in an airplane).
The point being that in an aircraft all of those systems, save fuel tanks, are still within the skin of the airplane. Save Superliner's, pipes on the other train cars are outside the body of the car. That means that even residual heat quickly bleeds off when power is lost. On an aircraft there is still some insulation to help hold heat in when power is removed, which is rare.
That's my whole argument. Starting with the Superliners, some consideration was given to the location of pipes. Someone working the Viewliner I's seemed to forget half their life is in the cold. There should be no excuse for any train car built after 1970 to have freezing issues. These problems have already been worked out, but cost and a lack of engineering discernment has allowed the problem to continue.
There was no consideration given to the Superliners regarding the location of the pipes due to cold weather. The consideration was the bi-level nature of the car which left no room for anything under the floor and totally exposed to the elements. Seats & rooms exist in the space that in a Viewliner would be given over to storage tanks.
How did the Hi-Levels deal with this?
Same as the Superliners, whose design was based on the Hi-Levels. Mechanical units and tanks that would have been under the car in a regular car could not be due to the "sowbelly" design. Equipment placed inside the car at the ends of the lower level.
 
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Has the sever winter weather impacted all trains including fright or just passenger?
 
According to my BNSF contacts here in MT while there have indeed been some delays, especially in the midwest, most freight traffic was moving within 4-6 hours of their scheduled times as of yesterday with schedule projected to be back to normal throughout MT and ND by wednesday as temperatures return to normal levels. This cold wave had a much greater impact on passenger movement than freight.
 
Besides at least once in a plane in most main line plane types, they routinely operate in external temps in the -80F and below temps at crusing altitudes. The issue tends to be at airports that are not equipped to handle fuel at low temps.

OTOH Alaska Railroad routinely runs it's diesels at temps below -30F in the Fairbanks area every winter. So if one is set up to do so such can certainly be done irrespective of fuel gelling temp. The issue currently is that systems in the lower 48 may not be as prepared to handle such conditions as they could be.
 
Well, things are getting back to "normal" now, so it will be interesting to see how long it takes Amtrak to untangle the mess. My BNSF guy here locally said all of there trains continued to run thru the cold on the Hi-Line with only a "few" delays, with the traffic congestion in freight trains continuing to be the main factor for them, NOT the cold.
 
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