Would Viewliners like these be possible (Or even Useful)?

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railiner

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I’ll see if I can find a reference for that.
That would be interesting to me, as well...
Researching such info would seem to be difficult. I recall reading the "equipment and services" section of various timetables, and it was not always clear who operated parlor's and lounges. Sometimes there would be a reference: : "Pullman Operated", or "Railroad Operated", but not always....
 

JohannFarley

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So I just took out my Pennsy Car Plans Book from 1969 to get some further ideas, and I took a picture of several of the interesting designs I saw.
20200604_005312.jpg

Firstly, the 10-6 sleeper we are all used to, the basis for the regular sleeper:
20200604_005843.jpg

Then, the full roomette car that has been thrown around as an idea:
20200604_005823.jpg

Here is one of their Cafe cars with only half table seating.
20200604_005446.jpg

Here is a coffee shop car. Don't know how this would be relevant, just thought it was interesting.
20200604_005532.jpg

Here is a lounge-coach with a bar:
20200604_005649.jpg

Here is a special lounge with a nursery, game tables, a bar/buffet, a newsreel room, and a reading room:
20200604_005732.jpg

And here is a lounge-sleeper with a little buffet.
20200604_005756.jpg
 

railiner

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Yes...there was no shortage of interesting and innovative designs, in the "streamliner era".
That 'recreation car' with the nursery and newsreeel theater, It was used on the all-coach New York - St. Louis streamliner, "The Jeffersonian"...

 

Seaboard92

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Have these all been scrapped or did some go to a museum somewhere (if you know)?
Here is the disposition of all of the Milwaukee Road Skytops.

Pullman Standard (8 Double Bedroom/ Lounge)
No. 12 "Adler Creek" Scrapped 1977

No.14 " Arrow Creek" recently scrapped in the 2010s in Buffalo, NY

No. 15 "Coffee Creek" owned by Ed Ellis pending restoration. Knowing his finances this car will probably come available again soon.

No. 16 "Gold Creek" recently scrapped in the 2010s in Buffalo, NY

No. 17 "Marble Creek" Scrapped 1990s

No. 17 "Spanish Creek" Scrapped 1977

Milwaukee Road Built Cars (1 Drawing Room/ Parlor)

No. 186 "Cedar Rapids" currently owned by the "Friends of the 261" in Saint Paul, MN. The car is currently Amtrak certified and regularly used on excursions.

No. 187 "Coon Rapids" currently owned by John Larkin. It is currently stored inside the P&H Warehouse in Enscanaba, MI. Also in this warehouse are the only remaining Baldwin Shark diesels, a super dome, and more goodies from what I've been told. Do not try and access the rail yard or warehouse Mr. Larkin does not like railfans, and will not hesitate to call the police on you.

No. 188 "Dell Rapids" currently on display at the Daytona Beach Museum of Arts & Sciences Daytona Beach, FL.

No. 189 "Priest Rapids" Scrapped by the Milwaukee Road in 1970

If anyone is interested I'm cataloging all of the remaining Budd cars, American cars surviving in Mexico, Pullman cars, AC&F, CC&F, and St. Louis Car Company equipment around today. I would be happy to post a link in an appropriate place on AU if there is interest.
 

jiml

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Here is the disposition of all of the Milwaukee Road Skytops.

Pullman Standard (8 Double Bedroom/ Lounge)
No. 12 "Adler Creek" Scrapped 1977

No.14 " Arrow Creek" recently scrapped in the 2010s in Buffalo, NY

No. 15 "Coffee Creek" owned by Ed Ellis pending restoration. Knowing his finances this car will probably come available again soon.

No. 16 "Gold Creek" recently scrapped in the 2010s in Buffalo, NY

No. 17 "Marble Creek" Scrapped 1990s

No. 17 "Spanish Creek" Scrapped 1977

Milwaukee Road Built Cars (1 Drawing Room/ Parlor)

No. 186 "Cedar Rapids" currently owned by the "Friends of the 261" in Saint Paul, MN. The car is currently Amtrak certified and regularly used on excursions.

No. 187 "Coon Rapids" currently owned by John Larkin. It is currently stored inside the P&H Warehouse in Enscanaba, MI. Also in this warehouse are the only remaining Baldwin Shark diesels, a super dome, and more goodies from what I've been told. Do not try and access the rail yard or warehouse Mr. Larkin does not like railfans, and will not hesitate to call the police on you.

No. 188 "Dell Rapids" currently on display at the Daytona Beach Museum of Arts & Sciences Daytona Beach, FL.

No. 189 "Priest Rapids" Scrapped by the Milwaukee Road in 1970

If anyone is interested I'm cataloging all of the remaining Budd cars, American cars surviving in Mexico, Pullman cars, AC&F, CC&F, and St. Louis Car Company equipment around today. I would be happy to post a link in an appropriate place on AU if there is interest.
Great list. Do you know which of the ones you've listed were transferred to CN? And yes, I for one would be very interested in your list.
 

Seaboard92

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Great list. Do you know which of the ones you've listed were transferred to CN? And yes, I for one would be very interested in your list.
All of the Pullman-Standard cars were sold to CN, which would be No. 12-18. It should be noted too one of the Tip Top Tap Lounge's has been preserved in Peubla, Mexico.
 

Mailliw

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This design yields 36 of these lie flat seats vs. the sleeper car capacity of 30 seats (4 bedroom and one ADA room.) I'm not sure this slight increase in capacity will allow them to charge sufficiently reduced fares to make the lack of privacy attractive. Also, is the double sized restroom module large enough to contain an ADA compliant toilet?
As far as privacy is concerned couldn't you just extend the partitions up to the ceiling and have a sliding/accordion dour or curtain? Then you'd basically have a 21st century version of the Slumbercoach.
 

railiner

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There was an experimental, 'advanced' design open section Pullman car that did have something like that...sliding panels instead of the curtains...
 

TheCrescent

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A Viewliner sleeper-lounge or diner-lounge would be great. Most of the car could be sleeping car rooms or dining car tables/kitchen (if that's ever used again) and there could be a small seating area with comfortable chairs. Being in a room for 14 hours on the Crescent is better than being in coach on the Crescent, but a small space to lounge in and grab a drink would be great.
 

Mailliw

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Huh, apparently there is a Viewliner used for track inspections that looks like it could also make a nice observation lounge.

AMTK American View end 29 Chciago IL 8-13-2014 (2).jpg
 

railiner

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Huh, apparently there is a Viewliner used for track inspections that looks like it could also make a nice observation lounge.
Nice shot. I remember taking passengers down to that car, when it was numbered 2301, as one of the pair used as 'Executive Sleepers' on the Night Owl...:cool:
 

Seaboard92

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Huh, apparently there is a Viewliner used for track inspections that looks like it could also make a nice observation lounge.

View attachment 17865
While it makes a good observation car albeit not as good as BNSF's made out of a full dome. There is one large problem with it, that it can not run in the middle of the consist, it's position is always fixed. You'll note even in the streamliner era several railroads had square end observations with diaphragms to allow passage between cars if it operated mid train. It was not uncommon for the Seaboard Silver Meteor to have two observations in one train, one a mid train car, and then a round end on the end. This allowed the Seaboard to split the train in Florida.
 
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Looking over the prices in the fare bucket thread, the coach to roomette prices don't really seem to have anything to do with how much space they take up. The approximate amount of space the roomettes in a Viewliner take up is about 10 rows of seats. Making the ratio of space approximately 3 to 1.

LSL NYLSL BCRESSTARMETCARD
Coach$90$96$139$130$130$90
Roomette$383$391$466$404$479$383
Ratio4.34.13.43.13.74.3
Roomette "Space" Price$288$307$445$416$416$288
Bedroom$614$623$649$689$852$614

The rough math shows that current low bucket prices are generally beyond the approximate rule based on space. But since there is little transparency on how fares are set, we can't know for sure what the charge for food is and what the charge for the accommodation is.

Also, there is no rule that a lie flat seat would have to have the same mark up as a roomette. Even the base bedroom rate isn't two times what a roomette is. So there is precedent that the various accommodation options have to generate equal revenue based on space, since based on current pricing that doesn't seem to happen.
Instead of using the above method, here is a comparison of revenue per car type. I am using the cheapest available fares on the LSL, NY section.
Notes:
I am not counting handicap fares or capacity.
Fares are from AMTK website.

Car typeCapacityFareTotal Revenue
Amfleet II Coach59 seats$90$5,310
Viewliner I Sleeper
(1 pax per roomette)
(2 pax per bedroom)
12 roomettes
2 bedrooms
$394
$877
$6,482
Viewliner I Sleeper
(2 pax per roomette)
(2 pax per bedroom)
12 roomettes
2 bedrooms
$538
$877
$8,210
Viewliner (Fictional)
Airline-style
36 lay-flats$250
(mid-way between coach and roomette)
$9,000

By my calculations the lay-flat seating car can be a viable option in terms of the maximum revenue it can generate. As others have already concluded, it all depends on what the passenger wants.

I personally prefer the idea of having a private space to myself, but it would make more financial sense for a single traveller to purchase the airline style seating. If travelling in pairs, I would assume most people would be comfortable paying an extra ~$50 to get the roomette.
 

jis

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Just a random thought. Referring to the diagrams that were posted above, a 20 bay section or even 20 Roomette, may be even more lucrative, revenue wise. The beds in it would certainly be way more spacious than in a 36 lay flat layout.
 
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Mailliw

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Agreed. An all roomette car could be pretty versatile; they could even be used on non overnight routes as first class day rooms. You'd still need to include an ADA bedroom though.
 

jis

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Agreed. An all roomette car could be pretty versatile; they could even be used on non overnight routes as first class day rooms. You'd still need to include an ADA bedroom though.
I suspect one has to sacrifice 4 Roomettes or Section bays to get an ADA Bedroom with attached toilet. In effect one has to sacrifice 6 beds net.
 

Mailliw

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For an all roomette car I wonder if it would be possible to make one of the bathrooms ADA complaint and just have an "accessible roomette" (eg a wheelchair space in a private alcove w/ a door) next to it?
 
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joelkfla

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For an all roomette car I wonder if it would be possible to make one of the bathrooms ADA complaint and just have an "accessible roomette" (eg a wheelchair space in a private alcove w/ a door) next to it?
I don't know whether that would be legal, but it would be less compassionate, and probably prompt an uproar from the physically challenged community advocates.
 

20th Century Rider

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Hello all,

I'm sure some of you will be saying to yourselves "oh great, another Viewliner thread from fantasy land," but because I've been stuck inside, I figured I'd try to draw out the Viewliners that I envision from time to time, and how they'd be used.

So my main idea was that different Viewliners could be used to take all Amfleets out of LD service, so they could be used to bolster the corridor fleet (although I'm sure by time these were delivered the Amfleets would be replaced already.

Anyway, here are a few of my ideas, in my order of most to least likely to be used. (

Firstly, a Viewliner Coach. This is essentially a carbon copy of an Amfleet II, but in Viewliner form.
View attachment 17605
A Viewliner Cafe Car, with the layout changed up to a more open design.
View attachment 17606

A Lounge-Sleeper combo. This is the design I like the least out of all of them, could definitely use tweaking but I;m not sure where. Maybe no Roomettes?
View attachment 17607

A Coach-Dorm car. The only thing I wasn't sure about was whether a sleeper needed an ADA bedroom or if one like this could be made.
View attachment 17608

Lastly, a Viewliner Observation-Dorm-Lounge. I just had fun with this one, let me know what you think.
View attachment 17609

Let me know what you guys think, of anything I've gotten wrong. Please excuse the art and car design, I'm neither an artist or an engineer.

Based on diagrams from here: Amtrak Car Diagrams @ CraigMashburn.com
Missing something! Windows that crack open in the roomettes and bedrooms. But it would be understandable that this would not work in coach seating... albeit there it would be better with controlled ventilation outlets as on the planes.
 

20th Century Rider

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Add a little more glass to the roof-line and I think you've got it!

Below are cars CN acquired from 'The Milwaukee Road' that were originally used on the Olympian Hiawatha



Yes yes yes! Would like to see Amtrak do something more creative with end cars.

And why is it that we're always looking backwards when it comes to passenger car design evolution? Newer designs are complete disasters... if not extremely uncomfortable.

Hey! And have you seen how passengers must struggle to get luggage up and down those stairwells in the superliners? In my opinion the superliners have inferior design. 🤮


IMG_9528.jpg
 

joelkfla

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Hey! And have you seen how passengers must struggle to get luggage up and down those stairwells in the superliners? In my opinion the superliners have inferior design.
How about this solution: dumbwaiter capable of handling carry-on size bags, with doors at floor level. Passengers leave their carry-on at bottom landing, and the SCA shoves it in and sends it up to where passengers can pull it out. Those who insist on bringing full-size luggage into their room are on their own!
 

20th Century Rider

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How about this solution: dumbwaiter capable of handling carry-on size bags, with doors at floor level. Passengers leave their carry-on at bottom landing, and the SCA shoves it in and sends it up to where passengers can pull it out. Those who insist on bringing full-size luggage into their room are on their own!
The design of European and Japanese double trains feature easy up and down stairs at entrance points making boarding with luggage far easier.

2efd94386ecddff2ff84bd73a0cecfb6--commuter-train-looking-up.jpg
 

tgstubbs1

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Does Amtrak need to have ADA bathrooms on each car, or is it sufficient to have adequate facilities on a certain percentage of cars?
 
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