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Members, moderator and BNSF 1088;

It is high time that someone throw the reins on inuendos, false information and spectacular

tall tales. Four weeks have gone by since the "formulation" of the now infamous July 3rd date with all the doomsday scenarios. Believe me, this posting put a shiver up and down many Amtrak employees backs. Mr. Moderator, you are to be commended for running a tight ship. Only problem is you have a ship with no rudder if you allow unsubstantiated posts to go unanswered or just conveniently "close the link" because you feel like it is necessary. Harry Truman said it best, "When it gets too hot in the kitchen get the H out!" Deleting posts at will is NOT going to give your sight any credability because the onlookers have no idea what you have deleted. You obviously owe some allegiance to BNSF 1088. However, he continues to post even though a multitude of your members have asked him to substantiate his claims. Perhaps this is in poor taste but look at the responses this gentleman is getting to his recent posts. ZERO. Also wonder if our fair moderator was knowledgable, or hopefully not involved, in this cruel and unusal hoax ???
 
The reasoning behind it as far as I can see is that BNSF has many sources within the company. He knows a lot of people in Management positions across the east. Now that being said. I've been around this railroad for five years now, and I used to pay attention to all these shutdown threats, whatever. But many have come and all have past. I do not believe a single one of these til I see a news release from the company that says schedules are changed,180 day notices posted, etc. Have some of these things been talked about within the company, sure. I heard about the Palmetto cut a year before it happened, but until it happened I didn't believe even that. So everything you see, whether it be from me, whether it be from BNSF, whether it be from Joe Schmo has to be taken with a grain of salt, it may be true, it may not be, but until it actually happens no one really knows.
 
I have already addressed this issue once before, but I'll do it once again.

First let me be clear, the only posts that have been deleted with regard to this topic were posts that resorted to inappropriate name calling, things like "troll" and worse. I will not allow anyone be it guest or member, to insult any other guest or member in such a fashion. While I’m not suggesting that you were one of those who resorted to name calling, this site’s credibility is hurt far worse by allowing that type of post to stand vs. the removal of the post. Criticism is one thing, name calling is another.

Post's that did not resort to such name calling do remain in the various topics, even if they harshly questioned BNSF.

Turning to the now closed original topic, I actually didn't close that topic. My understanding however for its being closed is as follows. The topic was getting quite old first, second it continued to attract the types of posts that I just mentioned above, and finally since it would appear that after a month's worth of prodding that BNSF isn't going to comment on it.

Next we come to the validity of the claims made by BNSF. I do not work for Amtrak, never have, and I can't imagine that I ever will. Therefore I have no way of validating any claims by any member, much less BNSF. If I just start deleting posts because I think that they might be rumors that IMHO is worse than allowing posts to stand even after they don't pan out. It is up to each member and guest here to take what they see on this board and decide how much credibility they want to give a post in the face of zero proof.

But I will mention that while there was no great train off as predicted by BNSF, even David Laney has now admitted publicly that there is a committee running around the system looking at the LD's for the purpose of restructuring and perhaps cutting trains. BNSF did report this in his train off thread, long before Laney owned up to it. So it would appear that while his source was wrong about the massive train off, his source was not wrong that there are things happening that could affect the current LD system as we know it.

Finally if you’ll note, I never made comments one way or the other as to whether I believed BNSF or not, and I never will. It is up to each member and guest to decide for themselves and while I do have an opinion, I won’t express it since I find that my being a moderator seems to add weight to my comments even though it shouldn’t. Beyond that, I’m not even going to address the rest of your baseless accusations; since if you’ve been around here long enough you’d know that they aren’t true.
 
..But I will mention that while there was no great train off as predicted by BNSF, even David Laney has now admitted publicly that there is a committee running around the system looking at the LD's for the purpose of restructuring and perhaps cutting trains. BNSF did report this in his train off thread, long before Laney owned up to it. So it would appear that while his source was wrong about the massive train off, his source was not wrong that there are things happening that could affect the current LD system as we know it.
The fact that long distance services were being reviewed was not a secret and was not a scoop by BNSF. This effort was widely known and was, in fact, mandated by the FY2006 Amtrak appropriation that called for quarterly reports on efforts to improve the economics of long distance, first class service. The only real surprise is that, to date, nothing has really happened in this area.
 
So everything you see, whether it be from me, whether it be from BNSF, whether it be from Joe Schmo has to be taken with a grain of salt, it may be true, it may not be, but until it actually happens no one really knows.

So I guess that means that anyone can post anything that comes to mind ??? There has to be an accountability factor somewhere.
 
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So I guess that means that anyone can post anything that comes to mind ??? There has to be an accountability factor somewhere.
The accountably factor is with us, the users of the forum. We can believe whom we want and not believe whom we want. Just because I read it on the Internet doesn't make it true.

We have messages on this forum quite often where someone will say something and someone else corrects them.
 
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In all reality they probably could, but amongst the regulars here it unfortuately takes awhile to gain respect for the things we post. Whether it's OBS and his employment with the company, BNSF and myself because of our connections within the company, etc. I know I myself am much more likely to trust the things that BNSF or OBS say than a guest who won't even reveal their identity. Could it be true? Sure. But in all reality it is not very likely due to the fact that they haven't built up credibility.
 
It is up to each member and guest here to take what they see on this board and decide how much credibility they want to give a post in the face of zero proof.
Definitely true.

While these boards are moderated for obscenity and trolling, it is, after all, still an Internet forum on which anyone can procure an account and begin posting. Caveat lector.
 
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So everything you see, whether it be from me, whether it be from BNSF, whether it be from Joe Schmo has to be taken with a grain of salt, it may be true, it may not be, but until it actually happens no one really knows.

So I guess that means that anyone can post anything that comes to mind ??? There has to be an accountability factor somewhere.
Well if something was completely off the wall and proof existed to the contrary, then we might very well pull down the post. Or if said topic had nothing to do with trains, then it too might very well disapear.

But I'm curious as to how you would suggest we hold someone accountable? Do we suspend him? Do we ban him? Your very post as an anonymous guest already disproves that theory. Besides, in the case being discussed here, BNSF has helped many members and guests who wanted info on Michigan trains. And it's not like we can call the internet police to have him arrested for making false statements. Heck, I don't even know where BNSF lives, so it's not like I can just show up and strong arm him into apologizing or something like that.
 
Reading this forum is no different than reading any other material in the newsbiz. Part of the power of the internet is how it allows anyone to publish "stuff."

Consequently, more folks need to develop the type of BS filters good journalists develop over the course of a career. This doesn't mean someone like BNSF 1088 should be banned for not-so-good information; it does mean you as a reader should discount what he says for what it's worth, given his boo-boo concerning train-off notices.

The easiest way to get out of a mess like this, should you find yourself in one, is transparency and accountability. If you hear a rumor, say "This is a rumor." Likewise, if you goof up, say, "I goofed up." Over the long haul, people will trust you if you keep your word, and maintain a sense of dignity and honor when posting.

I will amplify a bit; to my knowledge, several of us who post here asked BNSF to provide us on a back channel with a bit more sourcing, in line with traditional journalism. (I will grant we probably wanted confirmation of some sort for selfish journalism reasons, as in "breaking the story.") For whatever reason, he chose not to do this. At that point, we simply let things take their course. We have seen the results.

There no harm in posting rumors -- just be sure you label them as rumors.
 
Likewise, if you goof up, say, "I goofed up." Over the long haul, people will trust you if you keep your word, and maintain a sense of dignity and honor when posting.
I will amplify a bit; to my knowledge, several of us who post here asked BNSF to provide us on a back channel with a bit more sourcing, in line with traditional journalism. (I will grant we probably wanted confirmation of some sort for selfish journalism reasons, as in "breaking the story.") For whatever reason, he chose not to do this. At that point, we simply let things take their course. We have seen the results.

There no harm in posting rumors -- just be sure you label them as rumors.
In the meantime BNSF just goes on his merry way posting whatever he feels is gospel....makes you wonder what makes a guy like that tick? And to act like he never posted the doomsday post is totally out of line for any site. Time to move on fellow rail buffs. Some people never want to understand the difference between right and wrong.
 
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In the meantime BNSF just goes on his merry way posting whatever he feels is gospel....makes you wonder what makes a guy like that tick?
Here's what I wonder about too. :unsure: Why you are so willing to critcize, yet you can't even bothered to spend the 2 minutes required to sign up here and stop posting as an anonymous guest? Heck you won't even use guest handle name like others do and provide a temporary name, something that requires almost no effort. Instead you choose to remain totally anonymous. Makes what you say just ever so convincing.

And to act like he never posted the doomsday post is totally out of line for any site. Time to move on fellow rail buffs. Some people never want to understand the difference between right and wrong.
I suppose that you have incontrovertable proof that BNSF's doomsday post was wrong. While I'm certainly not trying to suggest that BNSF was right, can you show me some actual proof that all the flack created by his post didn't force David Laney and Amtrak to postpone their plans?

And I'm still waiting for the answer to my question from above, just what do you propose I should do to him?
 
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In the meantime BNSF just goes on his merry way posting whatever he feels is gospel....makes you wonder what makes a guy like that tick?
Here's what I wonder about too. :unsure: Why you are so willing to critcize, yet you can't even bothered to spend the 2 minutes required to sign up here and stop posting as an anonymous guest? Heck you won't even use guest handle name like others do and provide a temporary name, something that requires almost no effort. Instead you choose to remain totally anonymous. Makes what you say just ever so convincing.

And to act like he never posted the doomsday post is totally out of line for any site. Time to move on fellow rail buffs. Some people never want to understand the difference between right and wrong.
I suppose that you have incontrovertable proof that BNSF's doomsday post was wrong. While I'm certainly not trying to suggest that BNSF was right, can you show me some actual proof that all the flack created by his post didn't force David Laney and Amtrak to postpone their plans?

And I'm still waiting for the answer to my question from above, just what do you propose I should do to him?



Ask him to "stand down" from his doomsday orations. Not a hard stand to take; but you have to take that stand sooner or later. It's most obvious that many on this list owe allegiance to this rumor monger. I guess the previous statement will be have us permanently banned from the list. What's next on his list of attention getters ??? Good luck; I'm not biting into these attention headlines . Adios, amigos; I can get all the info I need from reliable sources....
 
...I suppose that you have incontrovertable proof that BNSF's doomsday post was wrong. While I'm certainly not trying to suggest that BNSF was right, can you show me some actual proof that all the flack created by his post didn't force David Laney and Amtrak to postpone their plans?
Please do not try to legitimatize the rumor mongering of BNSF by claiming his irresponsible posting so intimidated Amtrak that they postponed their evil plans. That is such bunk.

Here are the facts. BNSF posted information that he had no reason to post and for which there was no basis in fact. Period. His so-called sources were either wrong of he simply made up the whole thing. There was never any semblance of evidence that the junk he posted here was accurate and there was lots of evidence that it was not. Several of us pointed that out to BNSF multiple times prior to July 3 and he responded with arrogance and at times, quite frankly, with incoherence. Then, once proven wrong, he ignored the fact that he started the entire tempest and reverted to cutting and pasting information from other sources as if it all never happened.

So what if tomorrow, or next week, or next year Amtrak decides to cut or truncate a long distance train? Does that then prove he was actually right? To quote a respondent at another rail site commenting on the postings of BNSF, even a broken clock is correct twice a day. Even if a shred of what BNSF posted someday comes true, that does not vindicate or excuse what he did. It would be dumb luck. He was wrong and, to date, has not had the decency to admit his error.

What should you or this site do? I have no idea. But a start would be to not try and suggest that he was actually right. There is absolutely no evidence of that and overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
 
Ask him to "stand down" from his doomsday orations. Not a hard stand to take; but you have to take that stand sooner or later. It's most obvious that many on this list owe allegiance to this rumor monger. I guess the previous statement will be have us permanently banned from the list. What's next on his list of attention getters ??? Good luck; I'm not biting into these attention headlines . Adios, amigos; I can get all the info I need from reliable sources....
As I've already said, what good would that do. He could just as easily come back here and post his doomsday orations as a guest. He could also ask someone else to do that for him too. There is no way for us to police and verify everything posted on this public site. And unless we can verify beyond a shadow of a doubt that something is false, then deleting it just because we think that it might be wrong isn't the answer. There is always the chance that it's not wrong.

As other have said before, it's up to each person to decide what's credible and what's not.

As for allegiance, I don't owe allegiance to anyone except the owner of this site. I serve at his pleasure, not BNSF's, yours, or anyone else. Besides, if I did owe allegiance to BNSF, then your posts would already be gone. The fact that they aren't, despite their somewhat insulting nature to me, shoots down that theory. By the way, this isn't a list, it's a Bulletin Board.

Finally with regard to reliable sources, good luck finding one. Rumors abound on just about every train site that I've ever seen, due in large part to the fact that Amtrak itself is a mega-rumor mill. As of us here, we never ever promissed that everything posted on this site was fact. It was never designed for that purpose anyhow. It's main reason for existance is to provide people with a place to come and discuss Amtrak, ask questions (espcially for first time riders), and to have a good time. It was never intended as the #1 place to come and get news on Amtrak.
 
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...I suppose that you have incontrovertable proof that BNSF's doomsday post was wrong. While I'm certainly not trying to suggest that BNSF was right, can you show me some actual proof that all the flack created by his post didn't force David Laney and Amtrak to postpone their plans?
Please do not try to legitimatize the rumor mongering of BNSF by claiming his irresponsible posting so intimidated Amtrak that they postponed their evil plans. That is such bunk.

Here are the facts. BNSF posted information that he had no reason to post and for which there was no basis in fact. Period. His so-called sources were either wrong of he simply made up the whole thing. There was never any semblance of evidence that the junk he posted here was accurate and there was lots of evidence that it was not. Several of us pointed that out to BNSF multiple times prior to July 3 and he responded with arrogance and at times, quite frankly, with incoherence. Then, once proven wrong, he ignored the fact that he started the entire tempest and reverted to cutting and pasting information from other sources as if it all never happened.

So what if tomorrow, or next week, or next year Amtrak decides to cut or truncate a long distance train? Does that then prove he was actually right? To quote a respondent at another rail site commenting on the postings of BNSF, even a broken clock is correct twice a day. Even if a shred of what BNSF posted someday comes true, that does not vindicate or excuse what he did. It would be dumb luck. He was wrong and, to date, has not had the decency to admit his error.

What should you or this site do? I have no idea. But a start would be to not try and suggest that he was actually right. There is absolutely no evidence of that and overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Bill,

I'm kind of sadened by your post. :( I would have thought that you knew me better. I wasn't trying to legitimatize BNSF's post. In fact I specifically said "I'm certainly not trying to suggest that BNSF was right".

The point that I was trying to make was that without solid incontrovertable proof one way or the other, that my deleting his posts would have been out of line. The only posts that I delete are those that are ads, ones that insult other members with name calling or foul language, and occasionally when the original poster asks me to do so. On rare occasions I've had to delete other posts, because they refered to an earlier post that I was deleting for one of the above reasons, and leaving them would have made no sense without the original post.

But at no point was I claiming that BNSF was right or wrong in his doomsday post. And I never will claim or tell anyone publicly what I think, as it is up to each person to decide what they think of it. My opinion as moderator is supposed to be nuetral.
 
Ask him to "stand down" from his doomsday orations. Not a hard stand to take; but you have to take that stand sooner or later. It's most obvious that many on this list owe allegiance to this rumor monger. I guess the previous statement will be have us permanently banned from the list. What's next on his list of attention getters ??? Good luck; I'm not biting into these attention headlines . Adios, amigos; I can get all the info I need from reliable sources....
As I've already said, what good would that do. He could just as easily come back here and post his doomsday orations as a guest. He could also ask someone else to do that for him too. There is no way for us to police and verify everything posted on this public site. And unless we can verify beyond a shadow of a doubt that something is false, then deleting it just because we think that it might be wrong isn't the answer. There is always the chance that it's not wrong.

As other have said before, it's up to each person to decide what's credible and what's not.

As for allegiance, I don't owe allegiance to anyone except the owner of this site. I serve at his pleasure, not BNSF's, yours, or anyone else. Besides, if I did owe allegiance to BNSF, then your posts would already be gone. The fact that they aren't, despite their somewhat insulting nature to me, shoots down that theory. By the way, this isn't a list, it's a Bulletin Board.

Finally with regard to reliable sources, good luck finding one. Rumors abound on just about every train site that I've ever seen, due in large part to the fact that Amtrak itself is a mega-rumor mill. As of us here, we never ever promissed that everything posted on this site was fact. It was never designed for that purpose anyhow. It's main reason for existance is to provide people with a place to come and discuss Amtrak, ask questions (espcially for first time riders), and to have a good time. It was never intended as the #1 place to come and get news on Amtrak.

You're absolutely right, Alan. Am now retired after working for Santa Fe, SP, & Amtrak, & the motto on the railroad was always "If you haven't heard a good rumor, START ONE!". Mr. BNSF seems to operate in that mode a good bit of the time & I'd guess they're usually harmless, but the one about the 180-day notices started a s--tstorm all over the internet for no good reason I could see except for self-aggrandizement for himself & his "Save Our Trains" groups.

Anyway, I think you've handled the whole mess very well & folks should be commending you, not taking potshots.
 
Bill,
I'm kind of sadened by your post. :( I would have thought that you knew me better. I wasn't trying to legitimatize BNSF's post. In fact I specifically said "I'm certainly not trying to suggest that BNSF was right".
Alan:

My apologies for seeming to question your judgment or motives. That was not what I meant and was certainly nothing I would ever say or feel. What set me off was the suggestion that it was possible that Matt could have been right after all and that the hub-bub he caused here and elsewhere actually caused Amtrak to quietly withdraw their plans. There is absolutely no evidence of that at all, and plenty of evidence that Matt was simply wrong.

Regardless, it is his judgement and facts that are in question, not yours. Sorry for the clumsy wording that suggested the contrary.

Bill
 
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Alan:
My apologies for seeming to question your judgment or motives. That was not what I meant and was certainly nothing I would ever say or feel. What set me off was the suggestion that it was possible that Matt could have been right after all and that the hub-bub he caused here and elsewhere actually caused Amtrak to quietly withdraw their plans. There is absolutely no evidence of that at all, and plenty of evidence that Matt was simply wrong.

Regardless, it is his judgement and facts that are in question, not yours. Sorry for the clumsy wording that suggested the contrary.

Bill

You're 100% correct, Bill. To suggest that Amtrak would base a major business decision (or any other decision, for that matter) based on feedback from internet posts is just ludicrous. Does anyone really think that those two "Save Our Trains" pseudo-organizations bring any real weight to bear on what Amtrak does?

Kudos again to Alan!
 
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Here's what I wonder about too. Why you are so willing to critcize, yet you can't even bothered to spend the 2 minutes required to sign up here and stop posting as an anonymous guest? Heck you won't even use guest handle name like others do and provide a temporary name, something that requires almost no effort. Instead you choose to remain totally anonymous. Makes what you say just ever so convincing
As Gomer Pyle would say" Surprise, surprise, surprise." After being on the road over a long weekend to return and find this old dead horse being beaten again.

I think it goes beyond an anonymous guest stirring the pot too a regular member that just can't or will not accept that his demand for an apology was not forthcoming.
 
As Gomer Pyle would say" Surprise, surprise, surprise." After being on the road over a long weekend to return and find this old dead horse being beaten again.

I think it goes beyond an anonymous guest stirring the pot too a regular member that just can't or will not accept that his demand for an apology was not forthcoming.

It seems to me that if the "mystery" guest signed in it would make no matter if it was Superman or Lois Lane. The "dead horse" is still directing non-entities and continues to act like, "Well, maybe I meant July 3rd, 2525". He did a big number on a bunch of Amtrak employees in addition to anyone reading this site.
 
I will post information as i get it no one can tell from day to day what is going on at Amtrak.

Something is always being done to try to cut service on trains or try to take trains off.

And there is only 1 way to stop it make it public if you let it not get out to the public it could happen behind all of our backs.

And for the people that are mad about me not giving names i never will for the fact that if the Amtrak Board finds out a name of an employee leaking out information there fired on the spot.

I think a lot of you don't understand how Amtrak runs/operates the Amtrak Boad has full power on Amtrak ever since David Gunn was fired and the Amtrak Board is run by the Bush Admin which does not want Amtrak around and will try anything it can to kill Amtrak or take away trains for a slow death.

I had good reason to post what i did about the 180 day notices.

I have my ways of knowing if i post false information around and this was not the case for the 180 day notice issue.

And like i stated the whole time that things could change at anytime i said at the time of the post that these trains were on the list.

Which meant that there plan could backfire there was a lot of pressure on this issue more then any of you will ever know because you dont deal with the issues like i do.

If you dont want to belive me fine your not going to hurt me or stop me from trying to save Amtrak before we lose what we have.

The reason why some of you got the answers you did from people that you know in Amtrak is there jobs wernt at stake it was NOL so why would the people outside of NOL risk losing there jobs to say yes something is going on about train off's like i have posted before ANY AMTRAK EMPLOYEE THAT SAYS ANYTHING WILL BE FIRED ON THE SPOT that has been made very clear to Amtrak employees.
 
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I have been a member of this forum for several years, and have found that the administrators, moderators, etc have done a pretty good job with this forum. For the most part, I have found posts and threads to be interesting and informative. Additionally, the tone of nearly all contributions is usually pretty reasonable.

I have viewed other railfan sights where the tone of posts were demeaning, which made me reluctant to participate or express views on those sights.

Personally, the information posted by BNSF was upsetting to me. I would hate see LD passenger trains discontinued. However, he is entitled to free speech. Rather than immediately respond, I stepped back and watched for developments from other sources to collaborate this information. Ultimately, I still dont feel qualified to comment on the accuracy or inaccuracy of anyones statements related to this topic.

The irony in all of this is that Bush's efforts to end Amtrak is, in my opinion, forcing congress to actually take a serious look at the role of passenger rail in this country, and the necessity for it. Ultimately, I believe that this will lead to a stronger system in the next 10 years.

In summary, moderators and administrators, keep up the good work. Members and guests, thank you for your contributions too. All of you have helped me learn more about Amtrak, railroad operations, and rail travel.

Thank you
 
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The problem, as I see it, is that some members choose to post here rumour and hearsay, and say that it is unequivocal fact. What the administrators here should consider doing is enforcing common sense.

Common sense tells you that, if I say that, "I know for a fact that Mexico has nuclear weapons" is not the same as, "I have been told that Mexico has nuclear weapons."

If someone posts something which they pose as a fact, and not opinon, rumour, hearsay, etc., then they should be able to point directly to the source or proof of truth. Should he fail to do that, then the moderators need to intervene, not to edit or take sides, but to make sure that the readers here have all of the information.
 
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