Can we make "contemporary dining" better?

[MARC Rider]

OK, I get it. Classic dining car service may not be financially sustainable under the current political and budget constraints. After reading the trip reports, it does seem like the service itself isn't that bad, especially for a short overnight trip. You can still eat in the diner with fellow pax, and now, no rezzies needed. Plus, it's a nice lounge.

The problem seems to be in the limited selection. Seems like that could be addressed by having tray service, bot boxed meals, modularized to allow some limited choice of sides and desert, just like there's a choice of beverage. Hot entrees could be retort packed sous-vide stuff that can be stored without refrigeration. 4 lunch dinner choices - beef, chicken, fish, vegan. 4 breakfast choices - egg, pancakes, french toast and Continental. Keep dishes simple to avoid extraneous allernigenic ingredients. Ride the suppliers to keep a lid on salt and sugar levels.

Or even better, just serve self-heating MREs, dress the LSA on camo combat fatigues and have everyone call him or her "Sarge."

Any better or more detailed menu ideas?

 

[JRR]

We have no way of knowing whether the Classic Dining is financially sustainable or not.

The question we can’t know is whether the revenue is being properly credited or not.

With respect to coach travel, the revenue is pretty straight forward but the question remains is what revenue is credited for the sleepers?

I know a bunch of you ride in a Roomette by yourself. The cost of the room includes the meals. Note, however, that the cost of the roomette does not increase if you have two in the room.

Thus, it would seem that the revenue which should be credited includes meals for two whether or not there are two in the room or just one and should include all meals whether or not they are actually eaten.

I suspect, but do not know, that revenue is being credited on some other basis which does not actually recognize the proper revenue.

Without seeing the actual audit where the revenue is set out, we will never know.

 

[cpotisch]

We have no way of knowing whether the Classic Dining is financially sustainable or not.

The question we can’t know is whether the revenue is being properly credited or not.

With respect to coach travel, the revenue is pretty straight forward but the question remains is what revenue is credited for the sleepers?

I know a bunch of you ride in a Roomette by yourself. The cost of the room includes the meals. Note, however, that the cost of the roomette does not increase if you have two in the room.

Thus, it would seem that the revenue which should be credited includes meals for two whether or not there are two in the room or just one and should include all meals whether or not they are actually eaten.

I suspect, but do not know, that revenue is being credited on some other basis which does not actually recognize the proper revenue.

Without seeing the actual audit where the revenue is set out, we will never know.

As I said in another thread, I think the best way to fulfill the F&B mandate is to just allocate more revenue from the sleepers to the diners. Sleepers aren't required to turn a profit, so just put the necessary amount into the diner fund and you should be all set.

 

[railiner]

I think that they should separate the cost of the meals from sleeper tickets, and return to the old way, and welcome coach passenger's desiring a full meal to come to the diner. I also think that they could offer a much better selection for all three meals. The LSA could heat them, the same way as snack meals are heated in the lounge cafe, and passenger's would simply take them from the counter to a table, or back to their room themself. For those needing help for that, the sleeper attendant could do that.

 

[ehbowen]

I'm sure that there's some way to put lipstick on that pig and make it prettier.

 

[railiner]

There's really no reason that they couldn't serve the equivalent of first class airline preplated and heated meals with just the LSA, if it was "self-service". If it was popular enough, they might be able to afford one SA to help out. It wouldn't be an elegant dining experience as before, but the food choice and quality could be better than what is offered now.

 

[Bob Dylan]

It seems that we've reached a consensus on how to improve food service in the Amtrak Diners while helping to comply with the Congressional Directive on cutting the deficits in Food and Beverage Services @ the same time.

Adopt the Acela FC System ( without the "Free" Adult Beverages) while improving the Quality of the offerings.

No real reason that Coach passengers shouldn't be able to purchase Higher Quality Offerings in the Cafe like what is available on some of the State Funded Trains either.

Win/Win it seems to me!

If Full Service is kept in the Diners on the Two Night LD Trains ( ie Western), as has been said, going back to the old system of Pay as you go would seem to be a No Brainer!

This should be clear to the Airline Crew Flying Amtrak, but doesn't seem to register as they fiddle around with hybrid systems that hardly anyone seems to like,Passengers or Crew.

 

[Anderson]

Well, and in addition to the food being available to purchase "as available", there really should be some ability to reserve something in advance (whether as a specific choice or just "a meal" and you pick from the options) for a fee. Part of the reason I started springing for a roomette BAL/WAS-RVR on the Meteor is that I got sick of feeling like the OBS folks would post an armed guard at the door of the diner if they could get away with it.

 

[Anderson]

OK, I get it. Classic dining car service may not be financially sustainable under the current political and budget constraints. After reading the trip reports, it does seem like the service itself isn't that bad, especially for a short overnight trip. You can still eat in the diner with fellow pax, and now, no rezzies needed. Plus, it's a nice lounge.

The problem seems to be in the limited selection. Seems like that could be addressed by having tray service, bot boxed meals, modularized to allow some limited choice of sides and desert, just like there's a choice of beverage. Hot entrees could be retort packed sous-vide stuff that can be stored without refrigeration. 4 lunch dinner choices - beef, chicken, fish, vegan. 4 breakfast choices - egg, pancakes, french toast and Continental. Keep dishes simple to avoid extraneous allernigenic ingredients. Ride the suppliers to keep a lid on salt and sugar levels.

Or even better, just serve self-heating MREs, dress the LSA on camo combat fatigues and have everyone call him or her "Sarge."

Any better or more detailed menu ideas?

Well, Charlie's got a picture of me doing this on the Adirondack a few years back (what can I say, a sloppy joe MRE is actually an improvement on the old cafe menus...).

 

[neroden]

If they have boiled eggs, I'm all good. The breakfast choices currently are severely subpar.

 

[Anderson]

(1) "Financially sustainable" is something that can be argued back-and-forth all day long. If anyone is going to make a call on this front, they need parameters to do so.
(2) Any sort of reasonable F&B on some of the LD routes is going to lose money with honest accounting and no extra allocation of charges to F&B. That's really always been the case.
(2b) If you're willing to restructure fares, etc., the "easy answer" is to convert part of the fare on the LD trains into an "extra fare" for enhanced dining car services. In theory, that's the sort of thing that such fares covered back in the 50s (though it was frequently, say, a barber shop onboard). Not that those amenities were gratis as a result, but they were subsidized by that charge.

As to improving the current mode of service, I think you'd be better off with using the ex-diner space to cover both functions and de-staffing the cafe or the downstairs of the SSL and putting both F&B folks in the combined diner/cafe. This isn't far off of what the Cardinal has. Run an Acela-style meal service for the outbound dinner service (which on both the Cap and the LSL is eminently doable), possibly using the same menus but at least using something similar. Possibly supplement with something like a side salad if the food amount is a bit stingy. Breakfast/brunch on the back end is doable, but I would think you could do something relatively simple to improve the options such as having some microwavable breakfast meats available. "Boxed food plus microwavable supplements" doesn't seem to be implausible, and for reference a box of 72 slices of Hormel microwavable bacon on Amazon is about $19 while that much bacon (at current on-board prices) goes for about $54.

If you can at least permit coach pax to purchase/reserve a meal in advance, you could probably do at least something to the cost of a meal through scaling. The current attitude of doing everything short of putting an armed guard at the door of the diner (at least to some perception) can, at the very least, not be helping F&B performance...and neither can management's almost eternal befuddlement that coach passengers might want something more than a microwaved burger for dinner.

Edit: I would note that the latter point, the attitude towards coach pax, has gotten worse over the years as far as I can tell. I recall there being announcements that the diner staff would go through the coaches to solicit reservations some years ago. I haven't tended to hear those as much these days. Maybe it's just that they're only being piped to coach pax, maybe it's my changing ridership patterns...but it sure seems like there's been, at least, less of an attempt to bring them into the diner than there used to. Of course, that might just be perception at work.

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

I think the food and beverage mandate is a moot point. It was from a previous Congress and specifically one congressman from Florida. I honestly don’t think this Congress cares just reallocate the costs to the sleepers.

To take it a step further this Congress might actually be happy if Anderson and company did SOMETHING/ANYTHING positive to stimulate ridership such as  place in service new diners with real dining service and at least pretend to want to run the national network.

 

[Pere Flyer]

I think the food and beverage mandate is a moot point. It was from a previous Congress and specifically one congressman from Florida. I honestly don’t think this Congress cares just reallocate the costs to the sleepers.
To take it a step further this Congress might actually be happy if Anderson and company did SOMETHING/ANYTHING positive to stimulate ridership such as  place in service new diners with real dining service and at least pretend to want to run the national network.

Also, keep in mind that in a couple months, we’ll have a new Congress that will likely look different and have new leadership, depending on what voters do next Tuesday.

 

[jis]

Until Congress changes the law, nothing is a moot point, except in people's fantasies.

New Authorization of Amtrak is coming up giving an opportunity to fix this. RPA is working with Congresspeople to try to fix it.

Remember, discontinuance and downgrades of Dining Service started well before the current Amtrak Administration came into existence. The 2020 deadline written into law is still there.

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

If the costs were just reallocated to the sleepers it would be a moot point, case closed. Amtrak could do that with the stroke of pen. The F/B mandates intent was to cut down on food costs. The mandate as its being carried out by Anderson is a way to discourage ridership with an end game of shutting down the national network. Hence the problem.  If there’s any gray area in the new authorization I fear Anderson will use it just like he’s using the current one. 

Cuts did start under Boardman but looking back the Silver Star experiment actually makes sense in hindsight. The only LD route that more or less has 2 daily frequencies. Make one a bare bones service for a small discount while keeping traditional service on the Meteor. Customers have an option and it’s played out successfully. The CONO needs better heat and serve meals but at least the table service remains. The Pacifc Parlour car had great heat and serve food with table service  so the option is viable. Box lunch and dinners is a joke when a 2 hour Acela ride gets a hot meal. Im preaching to the choir.

No matter what Congress decides I don’t think Anderson has Amtraks or its passengers best interest in mind and that’s the real issue here. 

 

[AutoTrDvr]

If the costs were just reallocated to the sleepers it would be a moot point, case closed. Amtrak could do that with the stroke of pen. The F/B mandates intent was to cut down on food costs. The mandate as its being carried out by Anderson is a way to discourage ridership with an end game of shutting down the national network. Hence the problem.  If there’s any gray area in the new authorization I fear Anderson will use it just like he’s using the current one. 

Cuts did start under Boardman but looking back the Silver Star experiment actually makes sense in hindsight. The only LD route that more or less has 2 daily frequencies. Make one a bare bones service for a small discount while keeping traditional service on the Meteor. Customers have an option and it’s played out successfully. The CONO needs better heat and serve meals but at least the table service remains. The Pacifc Parlour car had great heat and serve food with table service  so the option is viable. Box lunch and dinners is a joke when a 2 hour Acela ride gets a hot meal. Im preaching to the choir.

No matter what Congress decides I don’t think Anderson has Amtraks or its passengers best interest in mind and that’s the real issue here. 

So, eliminating the long distance routes and just having "regionals" is his end-game objective?   Not good... certainly not for train enthusiasts. :unsure:

 

[cpotisch]

So, eliminating the long distance routes and just having "regionals" is his end-game objective?   Not good... certainly not for train enthusiasts. :unsure:

Some people have speculated that this is Anderson's plan. Neither him nor anyone else at Amtrak has said this out loud, so while I agree about *some* of this sentiment, we should take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Ryan]

The mandate as its being carried out by Anderson is a way to discourage ridership with an end game of shutting down the national network. Hence the problem.  If there’s any gray area in the new authorization I fear Anderson will use it just like he’s using the current one. 

Objection, assumes facts not in evidence. 

 

[ehbowen]

Objection, assumes facts not in evidence. 

Sustained; one should never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence.

 

[neroden]

I'll be really simplistic here.  Can we make it better?  Yes.  Get us some hard-boiled eggs.  There, it's better.

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

Sustained; one should never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence.

I would usually agree. In this case I think there’s both incompetence and malice involved. Anderson has lost any benefit of the doubt by his actions as a whole.

We need to keep our eyes on the ball so the rug doesn’t get pulled out from under us. I truly think there’s a sinester agenda here. Time will tell.

 

[Amtrakfflyer]

I'll be really simplistic here.  Can we make it better?  Yes.  Get us some hard-boiled eggs.  There, it's better.

Or for the broader population an egg Mc muffin type sandwich. McDonald’s and Panera have 16 year olds pumping them out in 3 minutes. Doesn’t get simpler then that. Ham/Egg sandwich,  fresh fruit, coffee in a V2 diner for breakfast

 

[neroden]

The problem with EggMcMuffins is the sheer number of additives which people may be allergic to.  Straight-up eggs are safer for more people.

 

[jis]

I would usually agree. In this case I think there’s both incompetence and malice involved. Anderson has lost any benefit of the doubt by his actions as a whole.

We need to keep our eyes on the ball so the rug doesn’t get pulled out from under us. I truly think there’s a sinester agenda here. Time will tell.

While I agree with the caution about keeping our eyes on the ball, I do not consider spreading random conspiracy theories based on little understanding of what is actually going on, as an act that is consistent with that goal.

 

[ehbowen]

The problem with EggMcMuffins is the sheer number of additives which people may be allergic to.  Straight-up eggs are safer for more people.

While there may be (probably are) additives in the Canadian bacon and American cheese (but, to my knowledge, no more than you would find in any comparable product on the supermarket shelf), the majority of the Egg McMuffin is fresh shell eggs and English muffins. Or at least it was when I was making them in 1979. There's no reason it has to be unhealthy.

Edit To Add: Again, I'm sure that production processes have been "improved" in the last 40 years. But in 1979, the production process was simple and straightforward:

• Break your English muffins in half and place them in the toaster.
  
• Brush melted butter on the grill and drop your holder with 6 or 12 stainless steel rings.
  
• Crack fresh eggs into the rings of the holder and pop the yolks.
  
• Lay the slices of Canadian bacon on the grill next to the eggs.
  
• Remove the holder, flip the eggs (2 at a time), and lay a slice of American cheese atop each to melt.
  
• Take your toasted muffins, pull the Canadian bacon from the grill and lay it down, then pull the eggs and cheese and lay it atop the bacon.
  
• Cover with the top half of the toasted muffins, wrap and serve.
  

It doesn't have to get any more complicated than that...and it shouldn't.