Amenities Being Eliminated from Long Distance Routes

[yarrow]

The feeling I get from that article is more complaints about "little things." For example, the paragraphs spent on "priority unloading" and ticket prices going up feel more like Kaminer is spoiled than true complaints about Amtrak. (It sounds like Kaminer just got lucky before with getting his car fast. Now at least customers can guarantee it.)

There are legitimate complaints about the cuts. However, that article barely scratches the surface of the complaints, and the few complaints it does bring up it, for the most part, blows out of proportion. (The $8 amenity kit, for example, was never meant to replace the sleeper amenity kit. A casual reader may think that the kit is required in order for a sleeper car passenger to get a pillow, which simply isn't true.) I'd rather see the outrage over some of the true cuts that seem to be coming down the line, like more limited menu options, the probable loss of all-day beverages (other than water) in the sleepers, etc.

The feeling I get from that article is more complaints about "little things." For example, the paragraphs spent on "priority unloading" and ticket prices going up feel more like Kaminer is spoiled than true complaints about Amtrak. (It sounds like Kaminer just got lucky before with getting his car fast. Now at least customers can guarantee it.)

There are legitimate complaints about the cuts. However, that article barely scratches the surface of the complaints, and the few complaints it does bring up it, for the most part, blows out of proportion. (The $8 amenity kit, for example, was never meant to replace the sleeper amenity kit. A casual reader may think that the kit is required in order for a sleeper car passenger to get a pillow, which simply isn't true.) I'd rather see the outrage over some of the true cuts that seem to be coming down the line, like more limited menu options, the probable loss of all-day beverages (other than water) in the sleepers, etc.

i kind of agree with your analysis of the article but the author's conclusion that amtrak is following the airline model seems justified. also, i think the $8 amenity kit(i don't think i've ever seen one in use) was to replace the pillow formerly handed out in coach

 

[jebr]

i kind of agree with your analysis of the article but the author's conclusion that amtrak is following the airline model seems justified. also, i think the $8 amenity kit(i don't think i've ever seen one in use) was to replace the pillow formerly handed out in coach

I would agree that Amtrak is becoming a bit more like the airlines with their current changes. The comparison to ultra low cost carriers seems unjustified, but I think that Amtrak is going to try a few airline-type fees.

And yes, the $8 amenity kit is geared towards coach passengers. Sadly, the article doesn't make that clear.

 

[neroden]

I would be very upset if passengers had to start paying for their own meals. If Amtrak were really about to start doing that, then the recent cuts don't make any sense.

Think about it. Currently, the prices listed on the menu are irrelevant to most dining car passengers, whose meals are currently included in their sleeper fare. "Little things" like using real china, tablecloths, flowers, etc. are irrelevant to Amtrak - sleeper passengers are going to show up at the dining car at mealtimes anyway, so you might as well cut everything that's not absolutely necessary.

But if passengers are going to have to pay for their own meals, all of those formerly-irrelevant details are suddenly going to become very important. Amtrak is now going to have to persuade passengers to eat in the dining car, and all of those details - along with freshly prepared food made from fresh ingredients - are what will bring people to the dining car. Otherwise, people will just eat a microwaved pizza from the cafe for a fraction of the price, or bring their own food.

I just think that running a dining car that's attempting to lure customers in is exactly the opposite from running a dining car on minimal losses (which is what they're currently trying to do). They may, at some point, force diners to pay for their meals, but Amtrak's current behavior doesn't make it seem imminent.

I've been thinking exactly this through the last few pages of this thread. thanks for taking time to type it out.

Yes, thanks to DP from me too. D.P. really describes the way in which this seems like a poorly thought out combination of ideas.

 

[neroden]

Charlie, don't be Naive. The politicians don't listen to us.

They won't if we don't even try! I can be as cynical as anyone, but c'mon, that's a pretty defeatist attitude.

Dunno... at this point unless I'm working for a fat cat lobbyist I think I have a better chance wishing for the Blue Fairy to show up... ... ...

State legislators can be quite responsive. Perhaps because the races are cheaper to compete in, and so it's easier to run a challenge. The threat of a successful challenger seems to wake them up and get them paying attention.

 

[boxcarsyix]

The problem with eliminating any of the LD trains (with the possible exception of the SL) is connectivity. The CZ is my route East. If it were eliminated (or even chopped up) I would not fly to Chicago (to go to Boston for example) when I can fly directly to the East Coast. I prefer not to fly at all, but if there is no reasonable alternative, I don't have much choice.

Of course if the amenity cuts become too severe, rail may no longer be a viable option at all. Two bottles of water for 3 days = dehydration.

 

[zephyr17]

My understanding is that back in the 1980s, dining cars were on the verge of being gotten rid of due to lack of patronage, so Amtrak decided to give free food to sleeper passengers in order to boost patronage numbers. If anything it increased losses, but the dining cars remained.

Having lived through it, one thing I can tell you is that the inclusion of food in Sleeper ticket was anything but free. When that happened Sleeper fares went up significantly in one fell swoop and the increase did not seem to be correlated very well with food prices either. Fortunately Slumbercoaches were not included, and I rode Slumbercoaches for as long as they were available, and didn't see the inside of a Sleeper through that period. I did use the Diner usually for breakfast and dinner during that period, and the fare difference between Sleeper and Slumbercoach was way larger than the amount I had to pay to use the Diner.
Purely from my personal perspective, I would love to see food be separated from transport fares and the transport and lodging fares lowered. I would go to the Diner for maybe one or two full meals a day that I am happy to pay separately for, but certainly not for full three meals a day. That is way beyond what my body needs. But of course, expecting fares to go down is a random dream, and won;t happen. All that will happen if food is removed from being covered by the fare is that Diners will eventually fade away, unless the pricing in them become more in line with say something like Applebees at most and perhaps lower, which means more net losses, which may lead to the same end result. Consequently, overall I'd be worried if the inclusion of meal in Sleeper fares was reversed. So is you head spinning now from my about face from where I started?

Yes, I was around then as well, and the sleeper fares went up significantly. It seemed to me that it went up enough to cover the number of meals normally served in the ticketed segment for the capacity of the room. It isn't free or even complimentary. Those meals are pre-paid.

 

[seat38a]

Way back in the first of this thread, there were many here saying the "amenities" cuts were no big deal. They would save jobs and/or routes.......fast forward to today where the AT has been decimated and the LD menus are being trimmed and the rumor has it that soon sleeper pax will have to pay for meals in the diner........I wonder if it is still no big deal?

Amtrak explicitly stated the other month in their five year plan that they were looking at having sleeper passengers pay for meals in the diner, as they ought to. Currently their ticket prices are set without consideration of meal expenses.

Then why do they dedicate a portion of sleeper fares to dining car revenues???

It's not actually dedicated, it's just an accounting thing (Acela actually has a dedicated set out which I think cooks the books somewhat). So you're Joe Schmoe sleeper passenger and you go to the diner. The list price of whatever you chose to eat is, eventually, transferred over to F&B as part of internal accounting. But there isn't a dedicated portion of your ticket set aside for it, your ticket price isn't set with the transfer in mind (and could, theoretically, result in negative sleeper revenue) and if you don't eat anything at all, nothing gets credited to F&B.

My understanding is that back in the 1980s, dining cars were on the verge of being gotten rid of due to lack of patronage, so Amtrak decided to give free food to sleeper passengers in order to boost patronage numbers. If anything it increased losses, but the dining cars remained.

One should note, incidentally, that ridership on the San Joaquin hardly seems to have been hurt by the loss of the dining car back in 2002.

IMG_0108 by seat38a, on Flickr

The above ticket probably has something to do with allocating funds. We as sleeping car passengers had to sign it and put our room and car numbers down. Also if I remember correctly from reading it somewhere, this ticket is also the cause of their losses. Unscrupulous waiters and LSA's would list items on the sleeping car passengers ticket and then keep the cash that the coach passenger paid for.

 

[tonys96]

Way back in the first of this thread, there were many here saying the "amenities" cuts were no big deal. They would save jobs and/or routes.......fast forward to today where the AT has been decimated and the LD menus are being trimmed and the rumor has it that soon sleeper pax will have to pay for meals in the diner........I wonder if it is still no big deal?

Amtrak explicitly stated the other month in their five year plan that they were looking at having sleeper passengers pay for meals in the diner, as they ought to. Currently their ticket prices are set without consideration of meal expenses.

Then why do they dedicate a portion of sleeper fares to dining car revenues???

It's not actually dedicated, it's just an accounting thing (Acela actually has a dedicated set out which I think cooks the books somewhat). So you're Joe Schmoe sleeper passenger and you go to the diner. The list price of whatever you chose to eat is, eventually, transferred over to F&B as part of internal accounting. But there isn't a dedicated portion of your ticket set aside for it, your ticket price isn't set with the transfer in mind (and could, theoretically, result in negative sleeper revenue) and if you don't eat anything at all, nothing gets credited to F&B.My understanding is that back in the 1980s, dining cars were on the verge of being gotten rid of due to lack of patronage, so Amtrak decided to give free food to sleeper passengers in order to boost patronage numbers. If anything it increased losses, but the dining cars remained.One should note, incidentally, that ridership on the San Joaquin hardly seems to have been hurt by the loss of the dining car back in 2002.

IMG_0108 by seat38a, on Flickr The above ticket probably has something to do with allocating funds. We as sleeping car passengers had to sign it and put our room and car numbers down. Also if I remember correctly from reading it somewhere, this ticket is also the cause of their losses. Unscrupulous waiters and LSA's would list items on the sleeping car passengers ticket and then keep the cash that the coach passenger paid for.

Yes, Amtrak's problems are due to crooked waiters and LSAs..........NOT!

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I'm sure there are some and it's a problem with Amtrak. Why do you think that problems have to be one big thing? That's easy to solve. Amtrak has a swarm of tiny to medium size problems. Which is the devil to solve.

 

[tonys96]

I'm sure there are some and it's a problem with Amtrak. Why do you think that problems have to be one big thing? That's easy to solve. Amtrak has a swarm of tiny to medium size problems. Which is the devil to solve.

Yep, lets blame the employees.......that's the ticket........( sigh).........

 

[VentureForth]

Wow. Even I will back up GML in saying that no where did he completely blame the employees, but there ARE crooked employees and they HAVE tarnished Amtrak. Why no videos or music on board? Equipment Stolen. By employees. Not all employees past and present have an obsolete proprietary movie video tape player that can only play about a dozen movies. But no one ever said all employees are crooks, either, or that they are to blame.

 

[tonys96]

Wow. Even I will back up GML in saying that no where did he completely blame the employees, but there ARE crooked employees and they HAVE tarnished Amtrak. Why no videos or music on board? Equipment Stolen. By employees. Not all employees past and present have an obsolete proprietary movie video tape player that can only play about a dozen movies. But no one ever said all employees are crooks, either, or that they are to blame.

Four posts above it says

" Also if I remember correctly from reading it somewhere, this ticket is also the cause of their losses"

That says it is THE cause of the losses, not A cause...........

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I have no knowledge of what is being stolen or not but I have seen employees with lousy customer service, completely lack of ownership, and even punitive off-the-cuff policy making. Not every Amtrak employee is incompetent or a thief but there are some who do actually deserve some blame for Amtrak's woes.

 

[tonys96]

I have no knowledge of what is being stolen or not but I have seen employees with lousy customer service, completely lack of ownership, and even punitive off-the-cuff policy making. Not every Amtrak employee is incompetent or a thief but there are some who do actually deserve some blame for Amtrak's woes.

Agreed. Some employees deserve some of the blame for the woes. But they are the exception, not the rule, IMHO.

 

[seat38a]

I'm sure there are some and it's a problem with Amtrak. Why do you think that problems have to be one big thing? That's easy to solve. Amtrak has a swarm of tiny to medium size problems. Which is the devil to solve.

Yep, lets blame the employees.......that's the ticket........( sigh).........

So what part of the next sentence that starts with "Unscrupulous" did you not understand got you all up in a huff and puff? No part of that ever said "ALL"

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I don't recall saying that they are the majority. I said, "I'm sure there are some." Amtraks accounting system is full of areas that allow for dishonesty among the people who lean that way.

Amtrak, as I said before, has tons of problems relating to archaic practices, institutional lethargy, and other problems. Employee theft has become a bigger problem, everywhere- not just Amtrak. Their anti theft practices are much more proof of fools than foolproof.

I remember an LSA explaining how they accounted for dessert ala mode. They would add ice cream to the checks of those who did not order desert. Their manager apparently wink wink encouraged it because it increased the subsidy to the dining car. That's not exactly an honest system and it is inbuilt.

Institutional theft and dishonesty.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

I have no knowledge of what is being stolen or not but I have seen employees with lousy customer service, completely lack of ownership, and even punitive off-the-cuff policy making. Not every Amtrak employee is incompetent or a thief but there are some who do actually deserve some blame for Amtrak's woes.

Agreed. Though I've heard from numerous Amtrak employees - and this was before this latest round of 'belt tightening' - that the amount of money that gets 'wasted,' 'pissed away,' or 'that seems to vanish' is astounding.

Now this just might be unhappy employees venting about their employer, but I've heard from some employees who seem 'matter of fact' and not angry.

 

[seat38a]

I don't recall saying that they are the majority. I said, "I'm sure there are some." Amtraks accounting system is full of areas that allow for dishonesty among the people who lean that way.

Amtrak, as I said before, has tons of problems relating to archaic practices, institutional lethargy, and other problems. Employee theft has become a bigger problem, everywhere- not just Amtrak. Their anti theft practices are much more proof of fools than foolproof.

I remember an LSA explaining how they accounted for dessert ala mode. They would add ice cream to the checks of those who did not order desert. Their manager apparently wink wink encouraged it because it increased the subsidy to the dining car. That's not exactly an honest system and it is inbuilt.

Institutional theft and dishonesty.

Oh WOW, I did not know that. I ordered my dessert Al La Mode in January, but I also read a thread somewhere that sleeping car passengers were allowed to have their dessert a la mode per Amtrak's policy. Did not know that creative accounting was how they did it. But at the same time, in our party's case, my mom skipped dessert most of the time so I'm sure my ice cream came out of her check.

 

[tonys96]

I'm sure there are some and it's a problem with Amtrak. Why do you think that problems have to be one big thing? That's easy to solve. Amtrak has a swarm of tiny to medium size problems. Which is the devil to solve.

Yep, lets blame the employees.......that's the ticket........( sigh).........

So what part of the next sentence that starts with "Unscrupulous" did you not understand got you all up in a huff and puff? No part of that ever said "ALL"

" Also if I remember correctly from reading it somewhere, this ticket is also the cause of their losses" -seat38a
Says this was THE cause of the losses.......not A cause or ONE cause.....THE cause........I simply disagree, there are many. Many causes of losses, including being over staffed.........

 

[SarahZ]

" Also if I remember correctly from reading it somewhere, this ticket is also the cause of their losses" -seat38a

Says this was THE cause of the losses.......not A or ONE cause.....THE cause........I simply disagree, there are many. Many causes of losses, including being over staffed.........

I believe seat38a was referring to the dining car losses, not Amtrak losses in general, as the discussion was about the dining car revenue at that point.

 

[tonys96]

" Also if I remember correctly from reading it somewhere, this ticket is also the cause of their losses" -seat38a

Says this was THE cause of the losses.......not A or ONE cause.....THE cause........I simply disagree, there are many. Many causes of losses, including being over staffed.........

I believe seat38a was referring to the dining car losses, not Amtrak losses in general, as the discussion was about the dining car revenue at that point.

Doesn't matter. I don't think employee fraud or theft is THE cause of dining car losses either. A factor? Probably......THE cause? No.

 

[EB_OBS]

Dining car losses 101

1. buying individually packed, vacuum sealed single serving entree portions instead of buying in bulk or by weight. The packaging cost significantly raises the price. It's the dumbest way to buy in quantity.

2. No POS

3. Menu prices too high to attract many coach passengers, see #1

4. Antiquated inventory management and accounting system. 1940s anyone?

5. Revenue protection spends $100 to recover $5 from LSAs on each and every trip.

These are just my top 5.

 

[amamba]

Can you explain "revenue protection spends $100 to recover $5 from LSAs on each and every trip?"

I don't think I understand. What is "revenue protection"?

 

[yarrow]

Dining car losses 101

1. buying individually packed, vacuum sealed single serving entree portions instead of buying in bulk or by weight. The packaging cost significantly raises the price. It's the dumbest way to buy in quantity.

2. No POS

3. Menu prices too high to attract many coach passengers, see #1

4. Antiquated inventory management and accounting system. 1940s anyone?

5. Revenue protection spends $100 to recover $5 from LSAs on each and every trip.

These are just my top 5.

always refreshing to hear from someone who actually works on the train

 

[tonys96]

Dining car losses 101

1. buying individually packed, vacuum sealed single serving entree portions instead of buying in bulk or by weight. The packaging cost significantly raises the price. It's the dumbest way to buy in quantity.

2. No POS

3. Menu prices too high to attract many coach passengers, see #1

4. Antiquated inventory management and accounting system. 1940s anyone?

5. Revenue protection spends $100 to recover $5 from LSAs on each and every trip.

These are just my top 5.

always refreshing to hear from someone who actually works on the train

True!