Future of Amtrak???

[neroden]

Rewrite? Nay - it's a matter of interpretation. But, yes, Amtrak got a huge influx of money (I didn't say it was theirs) and they spent it poorly. It was a colossal waste of taxpayer money to save an hour and 20 minutes between WAS and BOS.

This BS again? With the ARRA money, Amtrak is spending a lot of money replacing life-expired catenary on the NEC, and is *advertising* it as saving time. The previous rounds of upgrades was much the same thing: replacing life-expired track, signals, and equipment, and *advertising* it as saving time. I can see how you might get confused...
Nearly every time Amtrak needs to replace ancient worn-out stuff which it inherited, Amtrak claims that it's making speed improvements. Pay no attention to the speed improvements if you want to see where the money is really going... most of the money would need to be spend just to bring things up to a state of good repair, and the speed improvements are generally gravy.

 

[jphjaxfl]

The new viewliner equipment cannot get here too soon. I was by the Winter Park, FL station last Saturday when the 90 minutes late north bound Silver Meteor came through. Overall the train looked very rough. Even the Am fleet

I I coaches and View liner Sleeping Cars are showing their age. The train looked to be fairly full with many of the rooms occupied. A good crowd boarding at WPK. I don't ever remember the premarket Silver trains looking so shabby. SCL had a private company maintaining the equipment and the Silsbee and the Champion alway looked sharp. Sad that Amtrak can't maintain them better. Can't wait to see the new AAF trains which will make a better impression on tourists.

 

[John Bobinyec]

My impression is that the trains generally need a good bath. Is that what you mean by "shabby", or something else?

jb

 

[jis]

Sounds like Hialeah forgot to run the train through a car wash. Other than some peeling paint maybe, I am at a loss to see how anyone could tell anything other than that sort of thing about a train just looking at it from the outside.

 

[neroden]

Well, I can tell that some of the Heritage baggage cars are falling apart even from the outside, because of rust, the doors not closing properly, severe body denting, an unseemly number of body patch jobs, but yeah, short of that level of tiredness, there's not much you can tell about condition of a passenger railroad car by just looking at it from the outside.

I know some of the Superliners need some work because I've been in Sightseer Lounges with leaking windows, but that's something you figure out from the *inside*.

 

[afigg]

The new viewliner equipment cannot get here too soon. I was by the Winter Park, FL station last Saturday when the 90 minutes late north bound Silver Meteor came through. Overall the train looked very rough. Even the Am fleet I coaches and View liner Sleeping Cars are showing their age.

I took the LSL in July and the 2 Viewliners looked fine from the inside and outside. The Viewliners have a 4 year overhaul cycle where they go in for overhauls about every 4 years. Besides the cars perhaps not having been washed on the last service turnaround, you may have seen Viewliners that were due soon to go in for their overhaul.
The cars that are clearly in bad shape visually are most of the Heritage baggage cars. But, if there no more long delays with the CAF order, the Heritage baggage cars will start getting replaced soon.

 

[gmushial]

It will be interesting to see how the private adventures in Florida and Texas might change the public and elected officials opinions about train travel. Especially if extra funding is need. The big private toll road around Austin, Tx is on the verge of defaulting on its bonds.

But today I agree we must continue to push our elected officials for a more balanced transportation system.

Sigh... and haven't we been lectured and lectured, that the only proper way to run a country is to let the market forced rule?

Sadly I suspect Amtrak is going to be in for a rough time of it for the next couple years, with the R's looking to take the Senate in november... and if they hold those (house + senate) and take the presidency in 2016... not a pretty picture. ... maybe if Amtrak sells itself as being part of the MIC then it'll survive and get all the money it needs??

 

[Thirdrail7]

.. But when they are given too much money, we see silly things like Acela with only 5 revenue cars (vs 16 on Shinkansen) with no way to expand - despite the demand.

I have to agree with this. Even if there was only enough Canadian money for 6 car Acelas (including the Bistro Cafe), they should have overbuilt the maintenence facilities larger to figure that maybe in the future there might be longer trains. And speaking of the Cafe, the seating is hideous, and the beer on tap thing causing spills is something that ought to have revealed itself long ago. Liquids spill because of gravity, so you either provide for it, or install larger drain traps.

The way CAF and Amtrak are handling the Viewliner II's are also silly. It is coming to light via magazines that there might be discord in the lack of product support during testing. Didn't this crap get ironed out before, the way the ACS64's did? And why so many, so many, so many, X100 delays and revisions to the delivery schedule? Plus lack of transparency? These cars needed to be on line now, but instead Amtrak lost out on the Summer 2014 season to accomodate more premium passengers. Then the Baggage Dorm portion gets changed. Some on here say it'll be ready when they are ready, but I can't and won't endorse such complacency. There has to be some sign of urgency and competance on this project, to maintain our credibility with furture ones.

Allow me to chime in. There is nothing to stop expansion of the Acela consist except cold weather. If you think the facilities can't handle longer consists without extending the buildings, I'd ask you to consider the fact the 10003 isn't plopped into the consist in the train station. Indeed, there have been 8 and 9 car test trains that are assembled and prepped in the existing facilities.

The rub is when it there are extremely cold temperatures, leaving the facility doors open to allow the additional cars results in a "chilling effect" on the employees. However, this is something to work around.

As for the CAF equipment, it isn't ready. How many times would you need to read the same thing? The cars are being tested and they will be modified. It isn't a matter of complacency. I don't want anymore half tested piece of crap equipment rushed into revenue service to satisfy buffs and some sort of imaginary deadline. I want it done RIGHT or as close to RIGHT as possible. If that takes time, in my mind it is worth it. The comparison to the ACS64s is ludicrous because in case you missed, they aren't ready yet either. Only a handful can go to Boston and they still aren't used in push pull service.

Yes, with better funding we can get more newer equipment faster and replace units lost to accidents. But when they are given too much money, we see silly things like Acela with only 5 revenue cars (vs 16 on Shinkansen) with no way to expand - despite the demand.

Interesting re-write of history to make a point eh?

The reason that Acelas are the way they are and the number is just 20 is not because there was too much money but there was too little. The project depended on getting a loan from the Canadians even to get what we got. Not because they were overflowing in money and got whatever they wished. So in some sense we were completely beholden to the Canadians in the way of deciding what we could have. Of course add to it Amtrak's endless changing of requirements and Barb the great and all that, and you get what you get, the 4 extra inches and all.

And finally, despite the political climate, Amtrak has been able to buy 40 new sleepers, 40 new diners, and 40 new baggage cars - because they are replacing cars that are truly falling apart.

BTW, what 40 Diner, 40 Sleepers and 40 Baggage cars are you talking about? The original numbers are 25 each Diner, Sleeper, Bag-Dorm, not 40. According to the original order hey could become 40 if they find the money to exercise the options. In addition there are 55 more Baggage cars which could become 80 if options are exercised to the fullest.

Since the original order the Bag-Dorm/Baggage mix has been changed converting 15 Bag-Dorm orders to pure Baggage, with Bag-Dorms reduced to 10 and Baggage increased to 70 AFAIR.

Also the political climate in which the order was placed was much less hostile to Amtrak than it is now.

Rewrite? Nay - it's a matter of interpretation. But, yes, Amtrak got a huge influx of money (I didn't say it was theirs) and they spent it poorly. It was a colossal waste of taxpayer money to save an hour and 20 minutes between WAS and BOS. And much of that time savings is simply from scheduling as the equipment itself improves the time by perhaps only saves 20 minutes. As for the 40/40/40 - my intent was in include the options, as we can expect them to most likely be exercised. And, perhaps or, we'll see a full refurbishment of the Viewliner I's in the meantime.

As for the current political climate, we've seen much worse in the past. Oh, don't point to the loss of mints and guava pomegranate elixer in the Rockies, or the removal of the 2nd lounge on the AT. We haven't seen any cuts in SERVICE since the Sunset Limited. And that is success in and of itself.

The electrification is not a colossal waste of money. It added frequency, strengthened the route, cut travel time which added riders and large swaths of the physical infrastructure were completely rebuilt from the ground up. The time savings was far more than 20 minutes. Indeed, if the various Metro-North issues conclude, you can probably get an Acela schedule down to 3'20".

There is nothing wasteful about this endeavor and everyone from Metro-North to the P&W benefited.

Amtrak as it exists now has no future other than the NEC. Short corridor trains are the states responsibility and they will go with the lowest bidder to operate them. The LD trains are running on borrowed time, particularly the western ones, as no Superliner equipment orders have been made or anticipated. They will either disappear or be given over to another operator. Maybe some routes will survive as cruise trains for tourists. Others will simply cease to exist or be replace by multiple corridor trains run by the states. Other than a handful of cruise type trains, diners and sleepers on trains are finished.

I agree with this only to the extent that decisions have to be made. If the NEC survives without being privatized, then the LD service will also survive. This is because as many politicians have stated, they will support a full system...not the NEC. If the states along the NEC take over the route (and that is unlikely to happen..think about the 1997 Reform Council) or the NEC is privatized, I believe the LD network will cease to exist in favor of the aforementioned state sponsored short corridor trains.

 

[jis]

I think Amtrak will survive. The key question will be will all the LD trains survive?

For example if one can think of an LD train that passes mostly through states the congressional delegation of which overwhelmingly vote against Amtrak anyway, what difference in votes would it make if such a train ran or not anyway?

I see significant risk to one or more western LD trains. I see relatively lower risk to most Eastern LD trains, since there are only about two or three eastern states that are overwhelmingly anti-Amtrak and LD trains.

 

[jphjaxfl]

The wash rack in Hialeah won't remove the dings and scratches in the stainless steel fluting that thousands of miles of constant usage has put on them. Let's face it! All of Amtrak's equipment except Acelastic are 20 years old or or older. I have seen many trains through the years . While rail fans may find them attractive, the traveling public generally does not!

 

[Bob Dylan]

The Superliner IIs (and the Is that haven't gotten the full rehab) are getting Long in the Tooth and in bad need of rehab @ Beech Grove! It really shows when you are on a LD Train with a nice Rehab I and a tired II!!!!

I agree that some of the Viewliners are really getting tired and shabby also, hopefully when the New Viewliners IIs come into service these are the Ones that will go into rehab first! ( no pun intended!)

The problem, as always with Amtrak is " Show me the Money!"

 

[jis]

The Viewliners simply have to go into their 4 year maintenance cycle. The ones that have gone through the maintenance are coming out with LED light fixtures and such. So it is not absolutely necessary that they go through a strip down rehab, which by the way, the Super I have never gotten either. Their core electrical and plumbing systems remain the original, with minimal fixup done during the rehab.

 

[VentureForth]

Their core electrical and plumbing systems remain the original, with minimal fixup done during the rehab.

Oh yeah - forgot about that. I would have remembered by the time January rolls around and we start seeing posts about frozen toilets in the Sierra Nevadas.

 

[henryj]

If you want to see the future of Amtrak just look at their performance reports. The July reports are out. The Northeast Corridor was in the black to the tune of $414 million dollars. The state run corridors lost $64 million and most of that was on the West Coast, the Pacific Surfliners, Capitols and Cascades. Then look at the long distance trains. They lost $451 million dollars for only 15 trains. The biggest losers were the CZ, SWC, CS and EB, Amtrak's most popular western LD trains. The biggest mystery are the Florida trains. This busy corridor should at least break even you would think. Yet the two Silvers and Auto Train lost over $60 million dollars. These are Amtrak's numbers for the 10 months to date. Then I read where Amtrak has altered the Viewliner order and reduced the number of baggage/dorms to only 10. This means these important cars will only be on a handful of the eastern trains with the rest having to use valuable sleeper space for the crews. Amtrak's future is the NEC, period. It owns the track and runs the trains. It may win some bids to operate the state's corridor trains, but it loses money on many of these so it seems. The LD trains are toast unless Congress decides to fund them separately and perhaps with another operator. Who knows where that is going. That's what I see. What do you see?

 

[Ryan]

Compared to FY13 YTD, those 15 trains are doing $100 Million better.

 

[afigg]

Compared to FY13 YTD, those 15 trains are doing $100 Million better.

It was also not that long ago that the NE Regionals were listed as losing money in the Route Performance Reports. In the September, 2010 monthly report at the end of FY10, the NE Regionals were just breaking even for the Core Contribution category with the Fully Allocated Contribution showing a loss of $48.8 million (unaudited report). Now the NE Regionals and Acelas are generating a very nice operating surplus.
The change in operating losses for the LD trains is nowhere near as dramatic, but the Auto Train, under the current cost allocation rules, is almost breaking even and has reduced its core loss for the year to date over the past 3 months.

 

[Ryan]

But Amtrak is doomed.

DOOMED!!!!!

 

[most awesome]

But Amtrak is doomed.

DOOMED!!!!!

I couldn't agree more.

Since DAY one Amtrak has been plagued by a bloated budget and tiresome government bureaucracy. Amtrak has lost billions and never made a profit, meanwhile the rails are falling apart, and there are rumors about what shoe will drop next (Chicago or DC). When Amtrak was originally conceived times were different, and there was an assumption that a dedicated funding stream would be put in place within the first five years. Unfortunately Carter crashed the whole thing and took us back to square one, at least in terms of passenger service. The way I see things now, unless Amtrak can drastically cut its budget in the next four years and erase its debt, Congress will act, and the sights will not be pretty. The first route to go will be the Texas Eagle. America has never been a rail nation. We are too independently minded. Americans don't want to waste trillions upgrading the system when they can simply fly there and be spared the indignities of the "scenic" route.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Evidently Sarcasm is not easily spotted by some Posters!

 

[Eric S]

Well, that post was good for a bit of a laugh.

 

[andersone]

This isn't contradiction,,,

this is sarcasm

contradiction is down the hall

room 12 A

(apologies to Monty Python)

 

[henryj]

The change in operating losses for the LD trains is nowhere near as dramatic, but the Auto Train, under the current cost allocation rules, is almost breaking even and has reduced its core loss for the year to date over the past 3 months.

LOL, so what you are saying is you believe Amtrak's numbers. The Auto Train makes a ton of money. It way more than just covers it's operating costs. Amtrak is on a mission to get Congress to cover it's LD loses, that is the loses it calculates, so why not load them up with overhead. It wants to operate the NEC separately and be able to use the NEC's 'profits' in that business, not use them to cover other trains loses. If Congress just does a continuing resolution for next years budget then nothing will happen. If they ever really develop a real budget and it passes both houses then watch out.

 

[Paulus]

The way I see things now, unless Amtrak can drastically cut its budget in the next four years and erase its debt, Congress will act, and the sights will not be pretty.

Good thing Amtrak is on track to post an operating profit in that timeframe then.

America has never been a rail nation. We are too independently minded.

So, uh, what price is your dealer giving you?

Americans don't want to waste trillions upgrading the system when they can simply fly there and be spared the indignities of the "scenic" route.

Why do people always forget about the corridors?

 

[Ryan]

Amtrak is on a mission to get Congress to cover it's LD loses, that is the loses it calculates, so why not load them up with overhead.

I look forward to reading your explanation of how Amtrak currently allocates their overhead contrasted with how you think the overhead should be allocated that informed this conclusion.

 

[neroden]

LOL, so what you are saying is you believe Amtrak's numbers. The Auto Train makes a ton of money. It way more than just covers it's operating costs.

Actually, I think it doesn't. One problem specific to Auto Train is the large station operation costs for the two stations which serve *nothing but Auto Train*. There's a reason the Auto-Train Corporation tried to expand to a third station (economies of scale: one service/two stations vs. two services/three stations), but unfortunately track conditions and dispatching caused that to fail. The other, large problem specific to Auto Train is inability to lengthen the consist for stupid reasons (CSX restrictions, head end power).
If these two problems could be overcome, Auto Train really would be spinning out money. First priority should be to retrofit all the cars to use less power, so that an extra car can be added. Second priority should be to figure out how to add a "power car". Third priority should be to get CSX permission to run a longer train. Fourth priority should be get some economies of scale out of the stations, but I don't know how to do that; they are rather large facilities, but I just don't see anything else which demands their use. Sanford could become an Orlando-area maintenance facility if one were needed.