Body scanner test at DC Union Station

[CelticWhisper]

And L.A., too.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/25/airport-body-scanner-artificial-intelligence

According to documents filed with the US Federal Communications Commission (FCC), Boston-based Evolv Technology is planning to test its system at Union Station in Washington DC, in Los Angeles’s Union Station metro and at Denver international airport.

http://www.zdnet.com/article/end-to-airport-security-lines-new-us-trials-set-for-ai-powered-body-scanners/

The equipment operates in the 24GHz to 30GHz range. The planned trials will take place over two months at Union Station in Washington DC, Denver International Airport, and a station in the LA Metro rail network.

Does Amtrak want to lose business? Because this is how they lose business. Mine, at least, if this becomes permanent. I hope these tests fail miserably.

 

[Train2104]

I don't have a problem with it so long as it doesn't create massive lines/delays, new prohibited items, or too many false positives...

 

[tricia]

Time to get out the popcorn....

I'm with CelticWhisper on this, for reasons that have been exhaustively (exhaustingly?) explored in other threads.

Only new wrinkle here is using complicated, new, untested technology to implement, in locations previously free of such screening, something that's pointless at those locations. Does this sound like a winning idea to anyone?

 

[John Bobinyec]

It would be good to have upgraded technology at airports. But railroad stations? Do you install it at all 500 or so of Amtrak's station stops? If not, then would-be evildoers can simply get on the train at the stations which don't have such scanners.

jb

 

[PVD]

The whole point of airport screening is very different than rail. A bomb on a plane can bring it down, and we have all seen what a hijacked plane can do. A train is very different. Anyone wanting to kill lots of people will just explode themselves in a crowd before the screening. Or get on at a smaller station. Pointless. How many crossings and trestles are there?

 

[CelticWhisper]

Also, call me paranoid, but you know that new boarding procedure at CUS, where there's no more direct boarding from the Metro Lounge and everyone has to walk down the corridor from the Great Hall? Golly gee whiz, wouldn't that be an ideal arrangement for deploying these piles of garbage?

 

[PVD]

Hello Julie, this is (insert generic terrorist name), can you rebook me to Naperville?

 

[CelticWhisper]

True, but doesn't help with the Capitol Limited.

 

[A Voice]

As already pointed out, pointless. If you are a terrorist - or just someone who wants to avoid the scans and the related hassle - just board at Alexandria or Rockville or New Carrollton instead. People like to throw around the phrase "security theater" but it fits here, and besides, exactly what does someone think they are going to prevent with screening at major rail terminals? Are those responsible for this test actually so clueless that they don't realize the train stops at dozens of intermediate stations along the route?

A legitimate question, though, is why test it in a railroad station at all, instead of more airport tests where it might make sense.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Hi, Ted Kaczynski here, book me from Hobart! OK OK that doesn't work either...

 

[Triley]

And L.A., too.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/25/airport-body-scanner-artificial-intelligence

According to documents filed with the US Federal Communications Commission (FCC), Boston-based Evolv Technology is planning to test its system at Union Station in Washington DC, in Los Angeles’s Union Station metro and at Denver international airport.

http://www.zdnet.com/article/end-to-airport-security-lines-new-us-trials-set-for-ai-powered-body-scanners/

The equipment operates in the 24GHz to 30GHz range. The planned trials will take place over two months at Union Station in Washington DC, Denver International Airport, and a station in the LA Metro rail network.

Does Amtrak want to lose business? Because this is how they lose business. Mine, at least, if this becomes permanent. I hope these tests fail miserably.

You do know that the TSA has every right to set up shop at Amtrak stops, and there's nothing that we, Amtrak, can do about it?

 

[MARC Rider]

The whole point of airport screening is very different than rail. A bomb on a plane can bring it down, and we have all seen what a hijacked plane can do. A train is very different. Anyone wanting to kill lots of people will just explode themselves in a crowd before the screening.

They could do that at an airport, too.

 

[CelticWhisper]

And L.A., too.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/oct/25/airport-body-scanner-artificial-intelligence

According to documents filed with the US Federal Communications Commission (FCC), Boston-based Evolv Technology is planning to test its system at Union Station in Washington DC, in Los Angeles’s Union Station metro and at Denver international airport.

http://www.zdnet.com/article/end-to-airport-security-lines-new-us-trials-set-for-ai-powered-body-scanners/

The equipment operates in the 24GHz to 30GHz range. The planned trials will take place over two months at Union Station in Washington DC, Denver International Airport, and a station in the LA Metro rail network.

Does Amtrak want to lose business? Because this is how they lose business. Mine, at least, if this becomes permanent. I hope these tests fail miserably.

You do know that the TSA has every right to set up shop at Amtrak stops, and there's nothing that we, Amtrak, can do about it?

My understanding was that they have to leave private (i.e. NRPC) property if ordered to. That they're not law-enforcement and if APD or a station manager tells them to get lost, they have to go.

 

[jis]

Now NRPC is private is a hoot! An outfit of which the entire Board and management chain is appointed by the federal government In normal corporate speak it would be characterized as a wholly owned subsidiary of the federal government at best. I am sure said station manager will be looking for a job pretty soon thereafter if the federal government decides that Amtrak must allow TSA to be at Amtrak stations. OTOH, if they decide otherwise or think it is not worth making a point of it, then someone will bask in the glory until the next time. Cynical? Moi?

 

[MARC Rider]

The whole point of airport screening is very different than rail. A bomb on a plane can bring it down, and we have all seen what a hijacked plane can do. A train is very different. Anyone wanting to kill lots of people will just explode themselves in a crowd before the screening.

They could do that at an airport, too.

Oh, yeah, it's already been done:

1985 - Rome and Vienna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_Rome_and_Vienna_airport_attacks

2002 - LAX - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Los_Angeles_International_Airport_shooting

2013 - LAX https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Los_Angeles_International_Airport_shooting

2016 - Ataturk Airport (Istanbul) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Atat%C3%BCrk_Airport_attack

I don't think body scanner would have prevented any of these.

 

[jis]

Not to mention Brussels National Airport in Zaventem

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Brussels_bombings

 

[afigg]

My understanding was that they have to leave private (i.e. NRPC) property if ordered to. That they're not law-enforcement and if APD or a station manager tells them to get lost, they have to go.

Besides the fact that Amtrak is effectively owned by the federal government and leaving aside that TSA and DHS have more legal authority than you might like, Amtrak does not own DC Union Station. The US DOT owns DC Union Station, so if one branch of the federal government wants to set up a test scanner system, it would be up to US DOT to say no. And that is highly unlikely. Amtrak's ownership begins at the platforms and tracks, so if the scanners are set up in the station by the TSA, there is little Amtrak can do about it legally.

On the scanners for Amtrak passengers, good grief, this is security theater out of control. Way too many other points of vulnerabilities for screening train passengers to provide any significant protection against terrorist attacks. A packed 8 car DC Metro train can carry far more passengers than an Amtrak train; is TSA going to set up scanners at every DC Metro station mezzanine entrance? Talk about a budget buster...

 

[MARC Rider]

Not to mention Brussels National Airport in Zaventem

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Brussels_bombings

Oh yeah, Forgot about that one.

I guess you could go all Israeli and check the cars before they enter the airport grounds, but then they would just set off a car bomb or shoot up the line of cars waiting to be searched.

 

[jis]

There are Metro stations in other parts of the world that do have scanners. But they are used only when the security profile goes beyond some threshold that is not shared publicly. I. e. you suddenly find yourself going through the scanner instead of bypassing it, for no apparent reason. And yes, they are very heavily used stations too.

 

[CelticWhisper]

What I want to know is what happens if these things alarm on something. I stopped flying because I absolutely refuse to allow a (uniformed in this case) stranger to force physical contact with me. If we're entering Freedom Fondle territory here, then my next Amtrak trip may well be my last.

 

[MattW]

Call me a conspiracy theorist if you want, but I wouldn't doubt that it's pressure from tsa or homeland insecurity that's keeping Amtrak from assigning coach seats. If they go to pre-assigned seats, people can board anywhere, Alexandria, New Carrolton, Rockville, Back Bay, Route 128, but by keeping the herd-mentality, people will be far more likely to use these larger stations where they can pull this crap, in order to stand a chance at getting a decent seat.

 

[MARC Rider]

My understanding was that they have to leave private (i.e. NRPC) property if ordered to. That they're not law-enforcement and if APD or a station manager tells them to get lost, they have to go.

Besides the fact that Amtrak is effectively owned by the federal government and leaving aside that TSA and DHS have more legal authority than you might like, Amtrak does not own DC Union Station. The US DOT owns DC Union Station, so if one branch of the federal government wants to set up a test scanner system, it would be up to US DOT to say no. And that is highly unlikely. Amtrak's ownership begins at the platforms and tracks, so if the scanners are set up in the station by the TSA, there is little Amtrak can do about it legally.
On the scanners for Amtrak passengers, good grief, this is security theater out of control. Way too many other points of vulnerabilities for screening train passengers to provide any significant protection against terrorist attacks. A packed 8 car DC Metro train can carry far more passengers than an Amtrak train; is TSA going to set up scanners at every DC Metro station mezzanine entrance? Talk about a budget buster...

That was the scenario in the sci fi flick Total Recall, in which Ah-nold was scanned as he entered the subway station. But the system envisioned in the movie was set up so that passengers just walked through it and were only stopped if the cops monitoring the screen saw something suspicious.

Unfortunately the system couldn't detect F-bombs, which only made themselves evident when Ah-nold and about 2/3 of the other characters opened their mouths.

 

[A Voice]

by keeping the herd-mentality, people will be far more likely to use these larger stations where they can pull this crap, in order to stand a chance at getting a decent seat.

Uh, no.

Seats are assigned upon boarding on some trains anyway, which would defeat the purpose of your conspiracy theory.

Not to mention that passengers hundreds of miles from a major terminal aren't really going to have that option. Someone will evil intent probably isn't so worried about where they'll be sitting regardless, and they can still board from a small, unmanned station.

 

[railiner]

Besides the fact that Amtrak is effectively owned by the federal government and leaving aside that TSA and DHS have more legal authority than you might like, Amtrak does not own DC Union Station. The US DOT owns DC Union Station, so if one branch of the federal government wants to set up a test scanner system, it would be up to US DOT to say no. And that is highly unlikely. Amtrak's ownership begins at the platforms and tracks, so if the scanners are set up in the station by the TSA, there is little Amtrak can do about it legally.

.

I didn't know that...I was under the impression that when Amtrak acquired the NEC, along with the Washington Terminal Ry. Co. back in 1976, the WT Included the platforms, tracks, and the station building.But come to think of it, there was that disastrous era of the "National Visitor's Center".....

 

[MattW]

by keeping the herd-mentality, people will be far more likely to use these larger stations where they can pull this crap, in order to stand a chance at getting a decent seat.

Uh, no.

Seats are assigned upon boarding on some trains anyway, which would defeat the purpose of your conspiracy theory.

Not to mention that passengers hundreds of miles from a major terminal aren't really going to have that option. Someone will evil intent probably isn't so worried about where they'll be sitting regardless, and they can still board from a small, unmanned station.

Uh, you just defeated your own point. The seat assignment is AFTER passing through any checkpoint, and people will be jockeying for a good assignment. Additionally, the scanners aren't being setup at stations hundreds of miles away, they're only being setup in the major terminals.