Siemens Caltrans/IDOT Venture design, engineering, testing and delivery (2012-1Q 2024)

[Green Maned Lion]

While poor maintenance practices are certainly a problem at Amtrak, in fairness you also have to recognize the chronic shortages of equipment which don't allow sufficient time "in the shop". Lack of proper mechanical attention naturally leads to more locomotive failures, and a lack of sufficient spares inevitably results in marginal units being sent out lacking needed work which, while not critical, really ought to have been done first.

Irrelevant. Chicago Maintenance has been the laughingstock of the NA rail industry for years. I heard a rumor that NJTs Meadowlands Maintenence Complex does better work... and in NJT they themselves call it the Mickey Mouse Club.

 

[jis]

GML, I agree.

BTW, I met a bunch of refugees from the MMC who left NJT because they just could not deal with MMC management any more, so they decamped to Brightline. They have done a beautiful job setting up the new maintenance facility at West Palm Beach in collaboration with Siemens.

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[MisterUptempo]

http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Documents/305%20activities%20report%20-%20monthly%209-30-17.docx

Posted on Railroad.net the minutes from a recent meeting. Ok d the change to the weight spec for single level cars.

To clarify, and to get the thread back on topic, Caltrans issued a Document Change Request to have the weight limitations changed on the 305-003 single-level specs. The change has not been approved. According to the minutes of the October 24, 2017 Executive Board meeting, the Technical Subcommittee will vote on the DCR in November. If approved, it and a series of newly filed DCRs move on to the Executive Board and a recently reconvened Single-Level Specification Review Panel. Approved changes will be included in a Revision B of the 305-003 specs.

A "renewed interest by several entities to use the 305-003 single level car specifications" was cited as the reason for restarting the review panel.

The minutes from the October 24, 2017 Executive Board meeting can be found here - http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Documents/305%20Exec%20Brd%20minutes%20-10-24-17%20DRAFT.doc

 

[jis]

All this mumbo jumbo sounds so familiar, having worked a significant portion of my professional career on standards

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[neroden]

While poor maintenance practices are certainly a problem at Amtrak, in fairness you also have to recognize the chronic shortages of equipment which don't allow sufficient time "in the shop". Lack of proper mechanical attention naturally leads to more locomotive failures, and a lack of sufficient spares inevitably results in marginal units being sent out lacking needed work which, while not critical, really ought to have been done first.

Irrelevant. Chicago Maintenance has been the laughingstock of the NA rail industry for years.

Decades. The stories date back before Penn Central to the Pennsy. Arguably Amtrak should never have absorbed that particular Pennsy shop.

 

[brianpmcdonnell17]

Are the Midwest cars going to have a similar interior to those operated by Brightline? Although I still prefer a bi-level design, I was rather impressed with the Irish Rail Enterprise service on Tuesday (on my first European trip), which appears similar inside to a Brightline coach.

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[jis]

Unknown. Even the Siemens substitution is not a given thing. It has not been finalized yet and it may yet not happen. Or so we learned yesterday.

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[Steve4031]

Unknown. Even the Siemens substitution is not a given thing. It has not been finalized yet and it may yet not happen. Or so we learned yesterday.

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Jis, what did you learn yesterday?

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[jis]

Unknown. Even the Siemens substitution is not a given thing. It has not been finalized yet and it may yet not happen. Or so we learned yesterday.

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Jis, what did you learn yesterday?

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That nothing is decided yet as final decision and it is pretty much up in the air. We were told by at least one (non-Amtrak) person who is knowledgable about what is actually going on but cannot give any details without endangering his source, that at present there is no reliable news to report.

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[A Voice]

Unknown. Even the Siemens substitution is not a given thing. It has not been finalized yet and it may yet not happen. Or so we learned yesterday.

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Jis, what did you learn yesterday?

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That nothing is decided yet as final decision and it is pretty much up in the air. We were told by at least one (non-Amtrak) person who is knowledgable about what is actually going on but cannot give any details without endangering his source, that at present there is no reliable news to report.

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Interesting. I had assumed the uncertainty stemmed just from the fact nothing is yet finalized, not that there were really other options on the table.

 

[MisterUptempo]

The minutes from the November 2, 2017 meeting of the Section 305 Technical Subcommittee were just released. You can find them here - http://www.highspeed-rail.org/Documents/305%20tech%20sc%20minutes%2011-2-17%20draft.doc

I'm just going to copy/paste the minutes that pertain to the 305-003 weight change, and also note that the current 305-003 weight limitations for single-level railcars are as follows-

Coach: 104,000lbs.

Cab/Baggage: 108,000lbs.

Cafe/Lounge: 111,000lbs.

 

[PRR 60]

They can't approve using the Siemens cars unless they meet the NGEC specs. Since the Siemens cars do not and cannot meet the spec, the easy way out is change the spec to reflect the car. So, roughly a 20% increase in allowable weight. I have to wonder how the original weight limits were developed if the real world now shows those values to have been grossly low? A WAG maybe?

And, just reading the discussion, even this process appears a bit arbitrary. The 5800 pound reduction (from the originally proposed increase) seems to be have been approved because they "like" it. Gee, I hope there is more behind that number than finding a value that everyone "liked."

 

[Green Maned Lion]

More like a SWAG.

 

[jis]

Welcome to the world of arbitrary standards creation [emoji57]

And even after a standard is put in place arbitrary exceptions follow. Did you know that an exception allowed by FRA to the PTC requirements removed the requirement for knowing where the tail of the train is? [emoji849][emoji33]

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[CraigDK]

http://www.dot.ca.gov/paffairs/pr/2017/prs/17pr117.html

It would appear that single level cars will happen....

 

[nti1094]

http://www.dot.ca.gov/paffairs/pr/2017/prs/17pr117.html

It would appear that single level cars will happen....

What a disaster! Totally incompatible with the current equipment and infrastructure in CA, a big reduction in capacity and bicycle space, and we lose one of the best parts of the American railroad experience... The joys and comfort of riding in a Superliner (prone of the modern CA decedents). Even if this is a stopgap measure (like the 2 comet trainsets) the reality is without putting out another request for builders, it will be many years before any possible bi-level orders let alone cars are made.

The only hope I suppose is the eventual request from Amtrak to begin replacing the aging Superliner 1 cars that might come in a few years if funding is available. Perhaps CA could tag on to that order with a modified car like their current ones.

I don't understand why they didn't just ask Alsthom to dust off the designs from the Surfliner cars. It's not like they put it back out to bid... Sumitomo could just as easily asked them to bail them out instead of Siemens. don't get me wrong, Siemens makes fine equipment. But the order was for a comfortable spacious bi-level car designed for platforms 8" above the rail head.

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[Agent]

Since this thread was about the Nippon-Sharyo bi-levels, should the Siemens coach order be covered in a new thread now that they seem to be officially happening?

 

[Green Maned Lion]

God, stop with the thread splitting. The organic conversation we should have!

 

[A Voice]

http://www.dot.ca.gov/paffairs/pr/2017/prs/17pr117.html

It would appear that single level cars will happen....

Thanks for the link.

Of particular interest is the timeline. There is no way we could have seen bi-levels for quite a while, so this is good news:

The first cars are expected to begin production within the year.

 

[jis]

God, stop with the thread splitting. The organic conversation we should have!

Yeah, just fix the title of the thread to “Sumitomo Contract for 130 Cars” or some such to reflect reality [emoji57]

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[GiantsFan]

http://www.dot.ca.gov/paffairs/pr/2017/prs/17pr117.html

It would appear that single level cars will happen....

What a disaster! Totally incompatible with the current equipment and infrastructure in CA, a big reduction in capacity and bicycle space, and we lose one of the best parts of the American railroad experience... The joys and comfort of riding in a Superliner (prone of the modern CA decedents). Even if this is a stopgap measure (like the 2 comet trainsets) the reality is without putting out another request for builders, it will be many years before any possible bi-level orders let alone cars are made.

The only hope I suppose is the eventual request from Amtrak to begin replacing the aging Superliner 1 cars that might come in a few years if funding is available. Perhaps CA could tag on to that order with a modified car like their current ones.

I don't understand why they didn't just ask Alsthom to dust off the designs from the Surfliner cars. It's not like they put it back out to bid... Sumitomo could just as easily asked them to bail them out instead of Siemens. don't get me wrong, Siemens makes fine equipment. But the order was for a comfortable spacious bi-level car designed for platforms 8" above the rail head.

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I agree, this is a disaster ... there will be stairs to enter leading to longer dwell times, and there will be less seats per train.

+1, would have loved to see more of the surfliner cars made if they needed a stopgap until NEW cars were designed.

http://www.dot.ca.gov/paffairs/pr/2017/prs/17pr117.html

It would appear that single level cars will happen....

Thanks for the link.

Of particular interest is the timeline. There is no way we could have seen bi-levels for quite a while, so this is good news:

The first cars are expected to begin production within the year.

I rather wait for equipment that works for our system than high floor cars that would be a downgrade any which way you look at it.

 

[Ziv]

I found this part surprising:

" The first cars are expected to begin production within the year. "

It is kind of surprising that they will start production of any sort within a year. If production starts within a year, we might see new cars relatively quickly. "Relatively" being a somewhat elastic word...

 

[Train_Freak]

I found this part surprising:

" The first cars are expected to begin production within the year. "

It is kind of surprising that they will start production of any sort within a year. If production starts within a year, we might see new cars relatively quickly. "Relatively" being a somewhat elastic word...

How I take the phrase “within the year” is before 2017 ends, which is even more impressive. Only 52 days remaining!

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[jis]

They have a production line in place that just complete the Phase 1 order from Brightline. The California order will require only a few minor modifications. So it is no surprise that they can begin production almost immediately. The Brightline Phase 2 order is not due until 2019.

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[PRR 60]

God, stop with the thread splitting. The organic conversation we should have!

Yeah, just fix the title of the thread to “Sumitomo Contract for 130 Cars” or some such to reflect reality [emoji57]

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Good tip. Done.