Rules regarding Diner doubling as a lounge

[MARC Rider]

If possible they should use as few tables as possible. The conductor, and assistant conductor would need to see out the windows to do their job safely. They have to know the precise location of the train.

They could use the GPS in the phones and downloaded maps if there's no cell service.
They could sit at an empty coach or business class seat and work there, like I used to see crew do on the Northeast Regional. They could also use an empty sleeper compartment to do whatever paperwork needs to get done. Finally, they could use the obstructed-view cafe table seats, if they need to, but they shouldn't need to take up more than one booth.

Has anybody ever brought this issue to the attention of Amtrak management? Has there been any response? Has RPA weighed in on this? This seems like an issue that could be resolved without any complicated acts of Congress or major management changes. Seems to me that the easiest thing is to always hold 2 coach seats in the reservation system, and reserve them for crew use.

 

[neroden]

Issue was raised four managements back; Boardman tried to do something about it. Deteriorated again after he left.

 

[toddinde]

Enforcement of policies varies widely on Amtrak, but in general you can't hang out in the diner. For one thing, the crew has to set up, or has already set up, for the next meal. Also, the dining car staff works harder than anyone else on the train. From early in the morning to very late at night, they are dealing with customers. They get a few hours break between meals and need a little time off. Some of them slip off to unused rooms, but mostly they just unwind in the car.

The Rail Passenger Association is on a campaign to be extra nice to crew. They are just at the very edge of having to cancel trains, so we need to do our best to hang on to the ones we have.

You are absolutely right. It is absolutely reasonable that the crew would set the tables for the next meal service. There just is not that much time between meals. When the lounge has been busy, I've always been able to come back in a half hour and found space. It just isn't a big deal. I think it would be a huge hassle to set aside tables for lounge overflow.

 

[toddinde]

They could use the GPS in the phones and downloaded maps if there's no cell service.
They could sit at an empty coach or business class seat and work there, like I used to see crew do on the Northeast Regional. They could also use an empty sleeper compartment to do whatever paperwork needs to get done. Finally, they could use the obstructed-view cafe table seats, if they need to, but they shouldn't need to take up more than one booth.

Has anybody ever brought this issue to the attention of Amtrak management? Has there been any response? Has RPA weighed in on this? This seems like an issue that could be resolved without any complicated acts of Congress or major management changes. Seems to me that the easiest thing is to always hold 2 coach seats in the reservation system, and reserve them for crew use.

No, the crew has a lot of paperwork to do, and they need a table in the diner or cafe. That is not unreasonable. Taking away revenue space is a waste. In the railroad days, they used to have two coach seats facing each other with a table. But again, this is their work and they are responsible for moving the train safely over the line, taking care of the passengers, and making sure that tickets and revenue are accounted for. They need a spot, and not moving around from place to place.

 

[Cal]

No, the crew has a lot of paperwork to do, and they need a table in the diner or cafe. That is not unreasonable. Taking away revenue space is a waste. In the railroad days, they used to have two coach seats facing each other with a table. But again, this is their work and they are responsible for moving the train safely over the line, taking care of the passengers, and making sure that tickets and revenue are accounted for. They need a spot, and not moving around from place to place.

They need a table? What about the transdorm (or whatever sleeper is being used as the transdorm)? The diner and cafes were designed for passenger use, and it many cases they are completely full with passengers, and in those cases it would not be right for crew to take up a table for paperwork when those places were made for passengers. Now if the passengers aren’t using all of it and there is adequate space, then sure.

 

[BalmyZephyr]

They need a table? What about the transdorm (or whatever sleeper is being used as the transdorm)? The diner and cafes were designed for passenger use, and it many cases they are completely full with passengers, and in those cases it would not be right for crew to take up a table for paperwork when those places were made for passengers. Now if the passengers aren’t using all of it and there is adequate space, then sure.

One or two tables (in non-Covid times) is OK. Eight or ten tables is not. That's what they're keeping from us now. I suspect Covid is the reason they're taking up a whole side of the Cafe Car. It makes sense they would want to stay away from passengers who are eating and therefore not masked. But they shouldn't take up the good side!
In pre-Covid times, some of my most fun experiences on a train were taking a late evening NEC and sitting in the "bar car" (Cafe Car) listening to the crew tell hilarious stories, and/or arguing about current events with us. I would hate to banish them to a transdorm.

 

[MARC Rider]

No, the crew has a lot of paperwork to do, and they need a table in the diner or cafe. That is not unreasonable. Taking away revenue space is a waste. In the railroad days, they used to have two coach seats facing each other with a table. But again, this is their work and they are responsible for moving the train safely over the line, taking care of the passengers, and making sure that tickets and revenue are accounted for. They need a spot, and not moving around from place to place.

Uh, ticketing and revenue is all done electronically now. They could actually do that part of their job standing while looking at their cellphone-like device, but I agree that they'd be better off sitting somewhere. But I don't see why they need a whole table. or, worse, multiple tables. And they certainly aren't "moving the train safely" and "taking care of passengers" while sitting at a table in the café car.

 

[lordsigma]

On my June cross country trip I noticed the crews would sometimes setup during the day during meal service at the tables in the lower level of the SSL which was roped off from passenger use. After the evening meal service was concluded I would then typically see them at tables in the diner. On my trip out west they were still doing flexible dining. On my trip back east was during the brief period in which they had resumed communal seating with traditional dining they used half the diner seating for patrons open to communal seating and the other side for tables where patrons requested non communal - all tables being used. Communal seating now being suspended again - I would imagine they need every table available.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

No, the crew has a lot of paperwork to do, and they need a table in the diner or cafe. That is not unreasonable. Taking away revenue space is a waste. In the railroad days, they used to have two coach seats facing each other with a table. But again, this is their work and they are responsible for moving the train safely over the line, taking care of the passengers, and making sure that tickets and revenue are accounted for. They need a spot, and not moving around from place to place.

Well.... there’s a table in the transdorm, tables in unoccupied sleepers, tables at coach seats.....

 

[Cal]

On my June cross country trip I noticed the crews would sometimes setup during the day during meal service at the tables in the lower level of the SSL which was roped off from passenger use. After the evening meal service was concluded I would then typically see them at tables in the diner. On my trip out west they were still doing flexible dining. On my trip back east was during the brief period in which they had resumed communal seating with traditional dining they used half the diner seating for patrons open to communal seating and the other side for tables where patrons requested non communal - all tables being used. Communal seating now being suspended again - I would imagine they need every table available.

Community seating is not suspended. On my CS Round trip last week the train was nearly, if not completely full and they had to use community seating to accommodate everyone. For some meals business class wasn’t even given the option to eat in the diner due to the large amount of passengers.

And about crews taking up tables, I still believe that they should not be taking up diner or lounge table space unless there is adequate room and passengers are not turning back because of no tables.

 

[Brian Battuello]

The cafe table issue has been around since Amtrak was formed 50 years ago. Personally, I think we could compromise on one table for staff. The newer issue is not sitting in the cafe car unless you buy food. Amtrak should be more welcoming to all passengers, and many coach folks bring their own family meals. I can understand them wanting a break from their 36 hour coach seat journey with a pack of kids.

In any case, I'd just settle for getting to my destination on the correct day.

 

[toddinde]

Uh, ticketing and revenue is all done electronically now. They could actually do that part of their job standing while looking at their cellphone-like device, but I agree that they'd be better off sitting somewhere. But I don't see why they need a whole table. or, worse, multiple tables. And they certainly aren't "moving the train safely" and "taking care of passengers" while sitting at a table in the café car.

I disagree, and if you look back at history, the crew has always done this. There is a famous picture of the 20th Century Limited crew doing their paperwork in the lounge. I disagree fundamentally that the crew is not moving the train safely from the cafe, and would argue that might be one of the best spots for them to do their job.

 

[SubwayNut]

I still remember riding the Empire Builder back in the days when there was a wine and cheese tasting in the middle of the second day between lunch and dinner in the dining car, I could tell the crew enjoyed running the event but it also added to a stressful day. I remember the event ended with a "I'm sorry we need to ask all of you to leave so we can get the diner ready for dinner." This was around 4:00pm, I remember there was a tour group on the train who I think had just gotten on near Glacier NP who clearly would have been happy to stay and socialize in the Dining Car together had we not all been asked to leave so they could get ready for dinner service. This happened in late June 2013 (on a maximize AGR circle trip from Phoenix via Van to Columbus, WI via brief layovers in LA and Portland)

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I disagree, and if you look back at history, the crew has always done this. There is a famous picture of the 20th Century Limited crew doing their paperwork in the lounge. I disagree fundamentally that the crew is not moving the train safely from the cafe, and would argue that might be one of the best spots for them to do their job.

Do you have a link to this photo? Would be interesting to see it.

 

[MARC Rider]

I disagree, and if you look back at history, the crew has always done this. There is a famous picture of the 20th Century Limited crew doing their paperwork in the lounge.

OK, but back in the 20th Century, especially before 1967, when the 20th Century Limited was running, they didn't have e-ticketing and other records all being stored electronically.

 

[Brian Battuello]

On the original California Zephyr consist, dome coach car CZ21, aka the "conductors car" had a tiny office with a table. Don't ask why I know this.

 

[tgstubbs1]

On the original California Zephyr consist, dome coach car CZ21, aka the "conductors car" had a tiny office with a table. Don't ask why I know this.

They should reinstate the conductor s' cars and put them on all of the LD trains.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

There is a famous picture of the 20th Century Limited crew doing their paperwork in the lounge.

Are you talking about this photo?

 

[joelkfla]

There is a famous picture of the 20th Century Limited crew doing their paperwork in the lounge.

I haven't been able to find it with a Google search, so maybe not so famous.

Are you talking about this photo?

View attachment 26533

Nobody's doing paperwork, just apparently checking tickets or the manifest. There isn't really anyplace to sit and do paperwork in that photo.

I did find photos of other lounges on the train with full tables, but not any with seated staff.

 

[basketmaker]

They need a table? What about the transdorm (or whatever sleeper is being used as the transdorm)? The diner and cafes were designed for passenger use, and it many cases they are completely full with passengers, and in those cases it would not be right for crew to take up a table for paperwork when those places were made for passengers. Now if the passengers aren’t using all of it and there is adequate space, then sure.

Glancing through the Amtrak Service Manual someone posted yesterday. The conductor is supposed to have one table in the diner set aside for him/her during the time he/she are not on the platform or lifting tickets, etc.. It is for him/her to do the multitude of reports required. And to be a centralized place for crew and passengers to contact as needed. The LSA usually uses a table near the serving/elevator area. And one table is the condiments, extra silverware, etc (some fancy French name) to be set up. Though I know that if the consist has a Trans/Dorm the Conductor/Assistant Conductor usually use the downstairs open area for that. I know the last 70 miles (DEN-FMG) of one my trips was spent down there chatting with them. I was booked in a roomette in the Trans/Dorm.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I haven't been able to find it with a Google search, so maybe not so famous.

Nobody's doing paperwork, just apparently checking tickets or the manifest. There isn't really anyplace to sit and do paperwork in that photo.

I did find photos of other lounges on the train with full tables, but not any with seated staff.

Exactly. For such a famous photo it seems difficult to find.

In all the photos of diners and lounges I never see LSA’s or Conductors at tables. Nor do I see whole tables taken up by condiments and dishes.

 

[Cal]

Exactly. For such a famous photo it seems difficult to find.

In all the photos of diners and lounges I never see LSA’s or Conductors at tables. Nor do I see whole tables taken up by condiments and dishes.

I’ve seen conductors at diner tables, and two whole tables being taken up by condiments, napkins, a cash register, and more.

 

[Willbridge]

The cafe table issue has been around since Amtrak was formed 50 years ago. Personally, I think we could compromise on one table for staff. The newer issue is not sitting in the cafe car unless you buy food. Amtrak should be more welcoming to all passengers, and many coach folks bring their own family meals. I can understand them wanting a break from their 36 hour coach seat journey with a pack of kids.

In any case, I'd just settle for getting to my destination on the correct day.

Now that you mention 50 years, I'm reminded that when UP leg-rest coaches built with conductor's desks and swivel chairs were in the consist those UP conductors preferred to take up four coach seats.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I’ve seen conductors at diner tables, and two whole tables being taken up by condiments, napkins, a cash register, and more.

Oh sorry, I meant in historic photos. On Amtrak I’ve seen many tables at a time taken up by crew, condiments, etc.

 

[Willbridge]

Now that you mention 50 years, I'm reminded that when UP leg-rest coaches built with conductor's desks and swivel chairs were in the consist those UP conductors preferred to take up four coach seats.

I'm not sure how these pages from the 1966 Car & Locomotive Cyclopedia will reproduce, but they show three different solutions to the conductor issue and the dining car crew sprawl issue. Obviously, these are not immediate solutions, but they're a clue that these are not new problems.

Note that the UP conductor has a window, and the KCS conductor does not. Better scenery on the UP?

UP Leg-rest coach: R, S, & T show the conductor's desk, the conductor's locker, and the conductor's chair next to the men's room. I remember these being used by some conductors and ignored by others.


KCS day coach: conductor's room on left-hand side of drawing.

1966 Denver Zephyr 'Chuck Wagon': includes OBS crew berths in the economy food service car. The Steward has a private room that could have doubled as a workspace.