Long Distance (LD) fleet replacement discussion (2022 - 2024Q1)

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Amtrak has a huge opportunity here. The choices they make now will define the brand for decades. Do they want to cheap out or do they want to grab the brass ring?

Amtrak can't compete with other modes of overland transportation for convenience (cars) or destination selection, frequency, and speed (airlines), but it can compete very well in the area of comfort and relaxation and nostalgic ambiance. Bring back the things that made train travel awesome and fun! Be less concerned with tightening up rules and restrictions like every other unimaginative insufferable business and industry and focus on actually making it enjoyable. Do that and they won't be able to order enough cars to handle the demand.

The new long distance trains should do everything to maximize the comfort, calm, luxury, and overall adventure experience, even for people traveling on the lowest fares. That means wide comfortable seats with generous pitch, plenty of modern amenities for the tech-expectant traveler (outlets, reliable wifi, etc.), and attractive food options instead of cutting corners and making coach passengers feel like steerage. In my younger days I could do it (I remember sitting in the outdoor vestibule on an oversold Montrealer train in the winter), but now that I'm older it's a sleeper car or don't go at all.

The current coaches aren't awful, but to cut corners at this juncture and make them less comfortable would be penny-wise and pound-foolish. Also the sleepers could be vastly improved if a little out-of-the-box imagination was sprinkled in - not exactly Amtrak's strong suit.
 
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pi314 said:
Amtrak has a huge opportunity here. The choices they make now will define the brand for decades. Do they want to cheap out or do they want to grab the brass ring?

Amtrak can't compete with other modes of overland transportation for convenience (cars) or destination selection, frequency, and speed (airlines), but it can compete very well in the area of comfort and relaxation and nostalgic ambiance. Bring back the things that made train travel awesome and fun! Be less concerned with tightening up rules and restrictions like every other unimaginative insufferable business and industry and focus on actually making it enjoyable. Do that and they won't be able to order enough cars to handle the demand.

The new long distance trains should do everything to maximize the comfort, calm, luxury, and overall adventure experience, even for people traveling on the lowest fares. That means wide comfortable seats with generous pitch, plenty of modern amenities for the tech-expectant traveler (outlets, reliable wifi, etc.), and attractive food options instead of cutting corners and making coach passengers feel like steerage. In my younger days I could do it (I remember sitting in the outdoor vestibule on an oversold Montrealer train in the winter), but now that I'm older it's a sleeper car or don't go at all.

The current coaches aren't awful, but to cut corners at this juncture and make them less comfortable would be penny-wise and pound-foolish. Also the sleepers could be vastly improved if a little out-of-the-box imagination was sprinkled in - not exactly Amtrak's strong suit.
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I don’t think they get it. Attracting new customers and ridership isn’t on their radar. Unfortunately Amtraks best funding ever comes at a time with debatably Amtraks worst management ever. Management is corridor oriented and can’t even do that right, it’s going to be real interesting to see what ends up getting ordered. My bet is they go cheap with the total order and I will be truly surprised if dedicated lounge cars are ordered at all. (Think CCC type car at best).
 
Amtrakfflyer said:
I don’t think they get it. Attracting new customers and ridership isn’t on their radar. Unfortunately Amtraks best funding ever comes at a time with debatably Amtraks worst management ever. Management is corridor oriented and can’t even do that right, it’s going to be real interesting to see what ends up getting ordered. My bet is they go cheap with the total order and I will be truly surprised if dedicated lounge cars are ordered at all. (Think CCC type car at best).
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I agree completely. While not an actual government agency, it may as well be since that's where the subsidies come from, not to mention the Board of Directors is appointed by the President and confirmed by the Senate because ... well ... because they're all rail experts themselves that's why.

As such, utter incompetence and cheaping out will be the order of the day. Amtrak seems to chug and limp along in spite of itself, forever shunning the notion of ever becoming great. How many people making the decisions at Amtrak have ever actually ridden on it to any meaningful degree?

Now if Brightline were to order some sleeping cars... 😜
 
Interesting take and his concerns about bridging the gap are of course very relevant. However I have mixed feelings about the proposed contingencies - particularly which seems to be his (and others) preferred alternative which is redirecting the focus to a heavy rebuild/life extension of the current Superliner fleet. This type of large investment from Congress may not come again any time soon and needs to look to the future and not just extending the status quo. I don't think concerns about Amtrak being able to manage this large and complicated a procurement means that it shouldn't happen and it shouldn't attempt to have an ambitious program - and I think, as respectfully as I can say this, there's a bit of resistance to some of the proposed changes mixed in with some peoples' understandable concerns about Amtrak's ability to get this right - its been pretty clear in some of the criticism that's been expressed towards the accessibility methodology particularly. The answer is oversight (by IG and policy makers) of the process and asking a lot of questions - not scaling down plans. The current fleet is deficient in a number of ways including, yes, accessibility. The right thing to do by the taxpayer here is to do something meaningful that pushes Amtrak towards the future, not just a another 15-20 years of the status quo. I'm sure there are things with the current fleet that will need to be looked at in the short and medium term which yes might include some heavy rebuild work and further wreck rebuilds and maybe even some third party equipment to keep the services running, but I do not agree with an approach that would push off the replacements in favor of a large rebuild program if such would be required. So if Tilley's contingency would push off new fleet further into the future and subject it to further appropriations battles that I do not agree with.
 
I’m interested in Coscia’s response if one comes. As publicly funded operation some response is warranted even if it’s not an informative one. No response at all would raise concerns. Let’s give it a few weeks.
 
Kimwhit said:
This should be sent to Amtrak OIG as well.
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Amtrak OIG has their own processes and can get information directly from management - and has, appropriately, launched their own audit and review of the LD procurement. Given the size and vast scope (this will be the biggest US rolling stock order in quite some time) this definitely needs to have a microscope on it.
 
Amtrak has a habit of basically just scrapping older equipment any time they get new equipment. I agree they should rehab the best of the Superliners and use them to augment the new cars for expanded service. Maybe use rehabbed Superliners on the shorter one night runs such as the Capital Limited and City of New Orleans. Maybe even the Coast Starlight or on some of the shorter run proposed new long distance future trains. But I don't expect to see anything like that even be proposed.
 
nferr said:
Amtrak has a habit of basically just scrapping older equipment any time they get new equipment. I agree they should rehab the best of the Superliners and use them to augment the new cars for expanded service. Maybe use rehabbed Superliners on the shorter one night runs such as the Capital Limited and City of New Orleans. Maybe even the Coast Starlight or on some of the shorter run proposed new long distance future trains. But I don't expect to see anything like that even be proposed.
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the superliner II should have a decent amount of life left but the I are 10-20 years older
That would leave 55 sleepers, 25 sightseers, 38 coaches, 30 dinners and 47 transition sleepers. in late 2021 nearly all those cars were active and not damaged
What they'd have is some very sleeper heavy trains with 4 sleepers and 1-2 coaches
 
Does anybody know what the future Superliners will look like? Will the long distance fleet be replaced with single level Siemen Venture cars attached with Viewliner sleeper cars?
 
homersimpson101 said:
Does anybody know what the future Superliners will look like? Will the long distance fleet be replaced with single level Siemen Venture cars attached with Viewliner sleeper cars?
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The only thing that is known is that Amtrak is looking to purchase bilevel equipment. Single-level was ruled out in the RFP.

Otherwise we'll continue to speculate and argue for at least the next several months. It'll be late this year at the soonest before a preferred vendor is chosen and likely another year after that before we see any designs.
 
Paniolo Man said:
The only thing that is known is that Amtrak is looking to purchase bilevel equipment. Single-level was ruled out in the RFP.

Otherwise we'll continue to speculate and argue for at least the next several months. It'll be late this year at the soonest before a preferred vendor is chosen and likely another year after that before we see any designs.
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But I heard that the new generation of long distance cars would be single level because of ADA requirements? Will these new bi-level cars have elevators inside of them?
 
As I recall, the wording in the RFP says the new cars are to replace the current bilevel cars but doesn't specifically say the new ones must be bilevel too.

Anyway, there have been some proposed floor plans that have accessible diners and lounges, with accessible sleepers and coaches next to them. And yes, there would be elevators. Cars outside this core may not be accessible.
 
alanh said:
As I recall, the wording in the RFP says the new cars are to replace the current bilevel cars but doesn't specifically say the new ones must be bilevel too.

Anyway, there have been some proposed floor plans that have accessible diners and lounges, with accessible sleepers and coaches next to them. And yes, there would be elevators. Cars outside this core may not be accessible.
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I don't think anyone outside of Amtrak and vendors have seen the exact wording in the RFP. IIRC all that we have seen is the title, which indeed matches what you say. But that does not preclude the actual content saying something more specific about bi-level.

The document showing the "proposal" was specifically for getting waiver from FRA for certain concepts and it may resemble nothing that will actually be proposed by the vendors, or it might. We shall have to wait and see,
 
homersimpson101 said:
But I heard that the new generation of long distance cars would be single level because of ADA requirements? Will these new bi-level cars have elevators inside of them?
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Actually bi-levels will work better than single-levels for ADA requirements. Seems contradictory maybe but they can be configured much better to provide suitable accessibility. Elevators are a given.
 
Bilevels allow certain features like ADA Bathrooms and Kitchens to occupy the entire car width on the lower level. Lifts are a relatively easy thing to maintain.

And the RFP was worded to specify that they were purchasing bilevels, not just replacing them.
 
Paniolo Man said:
Bilevels allow certain features like ADA Bathrooms and Kitchens to occupy the entire car width on the lower level. Lifts are a relatively easy thing to maintain.

And the RFP was worded to specify that they were purchasing bilevels, not just replacing them.
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Do you have access to the RFP so that you can provide the exact wording in it? Thanks.
 
If Amtrak
Paniolo Man said:
Bilevels allow certain features like ADA Bathrooms and Kitchens to occupy the entire car width on the lower level. Lifts are a relatively easy thing to maintain.

And the RFP was worded to specify that they were purchasing bilevels, not just replacing them.
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The actual ADA facilities would need to be located on the upper level if the intent is to allow wheelchair users to move between cars in the core trainset while the train is in motion.
 
The wording of the pre-procurement RFP:
Amtrak intends to issue an RFP to all qualified and interested Trainset Manufacturers to provide Bi-Level Equipment, Supplies, and TSSSA services for the manufacture and replacement of Amtrak’s Long-Distance Fleet.
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It is not suggesting that they are looking to replace bi-level equipment, rather they are looking to purchase bi-level.

My request for the full document is still pending, though it's apparently several thousand pages and very detailed. Odd considering they usually wait to hammer out little design details until the preferred bidder is chosen.
 
It may be possible to obtain the document through FOIA but I'd expect a fair amount of redactions. Amtrak is allowed to redact certain trade secrets and information where releasing it at this time would be detrimental to the procurement effort. It looks like a few people had requested the signed contract for the Airo ICTs as they posted it on the website. But it has considerable redactions - probably more redacted text than readable.
 
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