East of Mississippi Long Distance (LD) trains 2024

[Just-Thinking-51]

Fair enough ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

He pulling your leg in hopes not to drag up the “Performance improvement plan” PIP.

Had David Gunn not foolishly gotten rid of the Three Rivers 18 years ago, this $200 million would not have been expended, which is basically a capital subsidy to the Hedge Fund called NS to support their PSR nonsense that is clogging up the railroad.

The lack of a decent connection nor thru cars between a NY-PGH train and the Capitol Ltd has put the Capitol Ltd on its death bed. Of all the PIP's this one was operating budget nuetral.

Anderson/Gardner removed that PIP from the website, and Congress let that PRIIA section slide into oblivion. NARPdbaRPA never once brought that issue up, only incessant nagging of a daily Cardinal, which got no traction.

Now Amtrak is procuring Airo trainsets that are not compatible with the existing LD fleet nor its proposed replacement with train sets. I do not expect the Capitol Ltd to live long enough to see either.

Just a taste of the feeling/energy about converting the Pittsburgh Station and having rail cars drop off the Capitol Ltd and running them to NY.

 

[PaTrainFan]

Here is the PennDOT web page on Keystone West Project.

https://advancingparail.com/projects/keystone-west/

It does mention two items related to Pittsburgh station tracks realignment which might have a crossover installation hidden in it: Here is the list of projects that are mentioned in the article:,

I sure wish they'd get it going. I'm going out east later this week, so hoping to find evidence of any work commencing.

 

[Harmon Shay]

Amtrak apparently does have a back burner plan to convert the Cap into a single level train. But before they can go there they will need to bring many more single level cars out of Mothballs, so I suspect this cannot happen before late CY2025.

They also would have to convert more Northeast Regional or Horizon coaches to long-distance seating configuration. There may not be much room for that until Airo cars start getting here, and, while the timetable is there, this is still Amtrak and the present-day USA. Who knows when the Airo cars will be here.

 

[jis]

They also would have to convert more Northeast Regional or Horizon coaches to long-distance seating configuration. There may not be much room for that until Airo cars start getting here, and, while the timetable is there, this is still Amtrak and the present-day USA. Who knows when the Airo cars will be here.

For the capacity that they typically provide on the Cap and with the Card becoming Superliner, they actually do not need to convert any more single level cars. All that they need to do is get the Amfleet IIs off of the Empire Corridor trains (Adirondack and Maple Leaf) and they will have more than enough.

BTW, all the Horizons will be out of mothball by early next year anyway according to current plans. They will also be needed for early Corridor ID projects.

 

[Harmon Shay]

For the capacity that they typically provide on the Cap and with the Card becoming Superliner, they actually do not need to convert any more single level cars. All that they need to do is get the Amfleet IIs off of the Empire Corridor trains (Adirondack and Maple Leaf) and they will have more than enough.

BTW, all the Horizons will be out of mothball by early next year anyway according to current plans. They will also be needed for early Corridor ID projects.

That's true that they shouldn't have Amfleet IIs on the Empire Corridor trains, but they'll have to replace them with something. Given that all the remaining Horizon cars will be needed for the second Chicago-Twin Cities train and presumably (hopefully) the New Orleans-Mobile service, that would mean grabbing Amfleet I coaches off the Northeast Regionals, something Amtrak management is certainly not going to want to do.

 

[jis]

That's true that they shouldn't have Amfleet IIs on the Empire Corridor trains, but they'll have to replace them with something. Given that all the remaining Horizon cars will be needed for the second Chicago-Twin Cities train and presumably (hopefully) the New Orleans-Mobile service, that would mean grabbing Amfleet I coaches off the Northeast Regionals, something Amtrak management is certainly not going to want to do.

They won’t need all the Horizon Cars coming out of mothballs immediately. But this is also a somewhat pointless hypothetical at present. Suffice it to say that if they find it necessary they have plenty of ways to line up the necessary equipment in one to two years. They are very good at figuring out which Peter to rob to pay which Paul.

 

[Amtrak25]

In 2019, there were 22 Amfleet-2 coaches on day trains
(Maple Leaf, Adirondack, Pennsylvanian, Palmetto)
In 2024, there are 30 on those trains.

In 2019, there were 72 Amfleet-2 coaches on overnight trains.
(assume the dailys got 4 each, Cardinal 3, Boston LSL 2)
In 2024, there are 55 on those trains, each of the 17 train sets losing 1 coach .

+8 - 17 = -9
There are 9 such cars MIA, yet none are officially mothballed.
Are they playing yield management games ?
There are about 122 such coaches in all.

From videos I have seen, the Maple Leaf is exactly the same now as it was back then. Though last summer, it had 5 Amfleet-2 coaches per train set rather than 3 shortly after it was extended to Toronto. Amtrak's excuse at the time was "it's a long ride". That makes no sense - you can fit all the Canadian passengers in 1 coach most of the time. The real reason was to rob the Empire Corridor of Amfleet-1 to create another NE Regional train set for extended Viriginia service. This occured 2 weeks after they deadheaded 8 or 10 Amfleet-2 coaches out of storage in Florida. In doing so, they yanked the popular bicycle service on the Maple Leaf. With the consist likely restored, I don't know if they have put that amenity back.

 

[Harmon Shay]

It's good to see an actual count of Amfleet II coaches still out of service. That's been really hard to follow. Maybe we should have Congress require by law that Amfleet II coaches can't be used for trips under 750 miles!

Ah, I see thyat the "H" box above says I'm a train attendant. I'm not a train attendant, nor am I an Amtrak employee.

 

[MARC Rider]

In 2019, there were 22 Amfleet-2 coaches on day trains
(Maple Leaf, Adirondack, Pennsylvanian, Palmetto)
In 2024, there are 30 on those trains.

In 2019, there were 72 Amfleet-2 coaches on overnight trains.
(assume the dailys got 4 each, Cardinal 3, Boston LSL 2)
In 2024, there are 55 on those trains, each of the 17 train sets losing 1 coach .

+8 - 17 = -9
There are 9 such cars MIA, yet none are officially mothballed.
Are they playing yield management games ?
There are about 122 such coaches in all.

From videos I have seen, the Maple Leaf is exactly the same now as it was back then. Though last summer, it had 5 Amfleet-2 coaches per train set rather than 3 shortly after it was extended to Toronto. Amtrak's excuse at the time was "it's a long ride". That makes no sense - you can fit all the Canadian passengers in 1 coach most of the time. The real reason was to rob the Empire Corridor of Amfleet-1 to create another NE Regional train set for extended Viriginia service. This occured 2 weeks after they deadheaded 8 or 10 Amfleet-2 coaches out of storage in Florida. In doing so, they yanked the popular bicycle service on the Maple Leaf. With the consist likely restored, I don't know if they have put that amenity back.

When I took the Maple Leaf back in November, it had 3 Amfleet 2 coaches, one Amfleet 1 coach, and a split business class/cafe car. It is a 12 hour trip, so through passengers might appreciate the Amfleet 2s as much as riders on the overnight trains.

By the way, over 50% of riders on long-distance trains travel less than 500 miles, which suggests that maybe Amtrak could put a few Amfleet 1 coaches on the Silvers, Crescent, LSL, and Cardinal for the "shorts," which might increase capacity.

 

[railiner]

When I took the Maple Leaf back in November, it had 3 Amfleet 2 coaches, one Amfleet 1 coach, and a split business class/cafe car. It is a 12 hour trip, so through passengers might appreciate the Amfleet 2s as much as riders on the overnight trains.

By the way, over 50% of riders on long-distance trains travel less than 500 miles, which suggests that maybe Amtrak could put a few Amfleet 1 coaches on the Silvers, Crescent, LSL, and Cardinal for the "shorts," which might increase capacity.

Years ago, the Lake Shore used to have an Amcafe, or lounge, and maybe one or more AM I coaches for "shorts" that only ran New York to Albany. They were removed before the Boston section was joined. I wonder if they still do that?

 

[Amtrak25]

Years ago, the Lake Shore used to have an Amcafe, or lounge, and maybe one or more AM I coaches for "shorts" that only ran New York to Albany. They were removed before the Boston section was joined. I wonder if they still do that?

They stopped that years ago. The won't even run a dinette car NYP-ALB, which can be cut/added with the dual-mode loco change, so coach passengers have no food service at all for 4 hours.

The 280-series trains (Niagara Falls) have zero Amfleet-2 coaches, so there is little need for 63/64 to have more than one since very few people go to Canada. Customs theatre and VIA's outrageous fares prevent it, and it is one of the worst performing VIA Rail trains in their entire system. I see the Maple Leaf as a mostly a political Goodwill train, nothing more. It is not the Adirondack or Vancouver Cascade.

 

[jis]

They stopped that years ago. The won't even run a dinette car NYP-ALB, which can be cut/added with the dual-mode loco change, so coach passengers have no food service at all for 4 hours.

The irony is though, that it takes two cars to run an ALB turn while it takes 3 cars to run it all the way to Chicago and provide superior food service all the way for almost double the number of Coaches of the other single level LD trains with much better fleet utilization to boot. Same is true of any short distance designated Coach.

 

[Siegmund]

By the way, over 50% of riders on long-distance trains travel less than 500 miles, which suggests that maybe Amtrak could put a few Amfleet 1 coaches on the Silvers, Crescent, LSL, and Cardinal for the "shorts," which might increase capacity.

Out west, that was the original intention of the coach-baggage car: they had higher density seating upstairs (still better than Amfleet I, but no leg rests and less recline than regular Superliner coach seats - 4 extra rows per car I want to say?) and you could expect to be steered toward them if riding even a moderately long distance. On the old Pioneer and Desert Wind for instance they would try to put everyone not continuing past Salt Lake City in the coach-baggage car.

It was unpopular enough that eventually the the upstairs got remodeled to be the same as the long-distance coaches.

I am hoping this is a lesson they take to heart as they contemplate what kind of seats to put in the next equipment order.

 

[Amtrak25]

I was made to sit in one before their modification from Chicago to Fort Morgan, and from LA to Flagstaff in the 1980's. Not fun. 500 miles often means overnight.

So as to place the Canadian - downstate NY passengers in an Amfleet-2, the Adirondack should have 2 of them, not 4, and the Maple Leaf should have 1 of them, not 3. That would displace 8 of them for long distance. To put a 6th coach back on the Lake Shore and a 3rd coach on the Cardinal would require 5. 8 Horizon coaches should be brought in from Chicago once displaced by Ventures.

It is utterly ridiculous to even think of a daily Cardinal with it running with just 2 coaches and 1 sleeper while ignoring the Pittsburgh transfer situation as all too many advocates have for 19 years.

As for NYP-ALB food service for LSL coach passengers, they can have a take out snack service from the diner right now, as they did prior to Anderson. They can staff it with another cafe person. But Harris and Gardner don't want to, and the $45 + Tip dinner is all they can look forward to when they open it to coach passngers maybe next year, and only northbound.

 

[Siegmund]

It is utterly ridiculous to even think of a daily Cardinal with it running with just 2 coaches and 1 sleeper while ignoring the Pittsburgh transfer situation as all too many advocates have for 19 years.

On a bang-for-buck basis, the nice thing about a daily Cardinal is improved utilization -- 133% more service for 50% more equipment.

From the standpoint of a strong national network, no argument that the Broadway was an important part of it and could be again. I'd be more more interested in a standalone train than just a through car.

 

[Harmon Shay]

Out west, that was the original intention of the coach-baggage car: they had higher density seating upstairs (still better than Amfleet I, but no leg rests and less recline than regular Superliner coach seats - 4 extra rows per car I want to say?) and you could expect to be steered toward them if riding even a moderately long distance. On the old Pioneer and Desert Wind for instance they would try to put everyone not continuing past Salt Lake City in the coach-baggage car.

It was unpopular enough that eventually the the upstairs got remodeled to be the same as the long-distance coaches.

I am hoping this is a lesson they take to heart as they contemplate what kind of seats to put in the next equipment order.

Back then, we had a problem in the Seattle area with conductors thinking strictly in terms of operations and not obcious passenger comfort issues. On the Empire Builder, they would put long-distance passengers in the short-hauls coach-baggage and short-distance passengers in the long-haul coach without a second thought.

 

[railiner]

Out west, that was the original intention of the coach-baggage car: they had higher density seating upstairs (still better than Amfleet I, but no leg rests and less recline than regular Superliner coach seats - 4 extra rows per car I want to say?) and you could expect to be steered toward them if riding even a moderately long distance. On the old Pioneer and Desert Wind for instance they would try to put everyone not continuing past Salt Lake City in the coach-baggage car.

As delivered, the Superliner Coach-Baggage car contained 78 seats——all on the upper level. The standard Superliner Coach contained 77 seats——62 on the upper level, and 15 on the lower level.
The Coach — Baggage was not as dense as say, an Amfleet-1 coach with 84 seats, or a HEP “Clocker” coach with 88 seats…