Kentucky Cardinal To Be Discontinued

[Viewliner]

Discontinuation notices for the Kentucky Cardinal were sent January 6 by Amtrak to Illinois, Indiana, and Kentucky. Amtrak President David Gunn explained in a letter to employees that this is not a precursor to more extensive route cuts. Rather, he wrote, "The Kentucky Cardinal is unique, because it was started a few years ago as a single coach service based on the idea that the express business would be profitable." The notice is for 180 days, meaning the last run of the train will be on or about July 9.
The train has been hobbled by a number of factors that include the failure of the concept of a rapidly expanding express business, slow running across Indiana (albeit at night), irregular equipment assignments (including long stretches with no sleeping car), and lack of the state funding needed to make the investment necessary to improve things (such as faster running in Indiana or extension to Nashville).

The Story Can Be found in this weeksNARP Hotline

I for one am unhappy, as this could've been the next Floridian, and there are other ways this train could've been run more successfully.

Any Comment's? Reactions?

 

[tp49]

My reaction is that sometimes you have to cut off a limb to save the whole. I'm sure that Gunn took all factors into consideration before deciding on making this move and I trust his judgment.

 

[Amfleet]

I don't think that train would have become the next Floridian. In order for that to happen states and the freight railroads would have to come in repair/rebuild stations and improve tracks. It could happen though within in the next ten years, but I can assure you that no new routes are going to be issued anytime soon and letting that one hang on as a money looser for 5 years would not be a good financial move.

 

[Viewliner]

Okay, maybe I don't feel as bad now, my point is the general route itself, I think once we can consider New routes Chicago-Orlando-Miami is high up there.

 

[Steve4031]

I dont know the exact stats, but that was an awfully slow run from Indianapolis to Louisville. I think it was less than 30 mph. Also, the fact that this trip was made at night probably hendered the succes. If a train is going to be competitive, it has to be fast enough to compete with cars and buses, and it must run at a time that encourages use. This train could do neither. It might be better to use the equipment from this train someplace else in the short term. In the long term, find a faster route to Florida. Maybe out of Cincinnati, (I know thats spelled wrong, lol) over a section of railroad that I think is called "the rathole". I understand this section is in good condition due to more traffic.

I also know that Chicago to Cincy is somewhat faster than Chicago Louisville, which would probably work better. Running a second train that covered this route during the day enroute to Cincy would double the frequency on corridor that has three large cities. Hopefully, it could be worked out so that the train reached Nashville at a reasonable hour, and Atlanta early the next morning. Then it could continue to Savannah, which is approximately 250 miles from Atlanta. Form there, it could reach Florida destinations by early to late evening. I know these are rough estimates, but this this could be a possible routing.

 

[Amfleet]

The original CHI-FL train actually never ran through Atlanta, but I think Atlanta-FL service would see patronage. It's the missing link to the mid west.

 

[Viewliner]

The original CHI-FL train actually never ran through Atlanta, but I think Atlanta-FL service would see patronage. It's the missing link to the mid west.

I agree, Atlanta could use that train to Florida, but especially Chicago.

 

[Amfleet]

Chicago passengers now either have to take the Capitol Limited to WAS and connect with the Sivler Star or Silver Meteor to FL or take the City of New Orleans to NOL and connect with the Sunset Limited to FL (which only goes as far as Orlando. Atlanta passengers either have to go to NOL on the Crescent and connect with the Sunset to FL or to DC and connect with Silver Service to FL. That's even more of a am-trek.

 

[Viewliner]

But, that takes over 40 hours, which is more than the Floridian's worst showing.

 

[Amfleet]

That's what I'm saying. It takes over 40 hours now, but can be reduced to about 20-25 hours with the Floridian.

 

[tp49]

When Amtrak is in the position to consider new routes, a Chicago-Florida route would be one of the first along with Las Vegas/LA.

 

[tubaallen]

I dont know the exact stats, but that was an awfully slow run from Indianapolis to Louisville.  I think it was less than 30 mph.  Also, the fact that this trip was made at night probably hendered the succes.  If a train is going to be competitive, it has to be fast enough to compete with cars and buses, and it must run at a time that encourages use.  This train could do neither.  It might be better to use the equipment from this train someplace else in the short term.  In the long term, find a faster route to Florida.  Maybe out of Cincinnati, (I know thats spelled wrong, lol) over a section of railroad that I think is called "the rathole".  I understand this section is in good condition due to more traffic.
I also know that Chicago to Cincy is somewhat faster than Chicago Louisville, which would probably work better.  Running a second train that covered this route during the day enroute to Cincy would double the frequency on corridor that has three large cities.  Hopefully, it could be worked out so that the train reached Nashville at a reasonable hour, and Atlanta early the next morning.  Then it could continue to Savannah, which is approximately 250 miles from Atlanta.  Form there, it could reach Florida destinations by early to late evening.  I know these are rough estimates, but this this could be a possible routing.

Yeah, I don't know the exact stats either, but over the summer I wanted to get down to Louisville, and I remember thinking that the train took almost twice as long to get down there as I would if I just drove. And the timing of the schedule was terrible too!

 

[AlanB]

I dont know the exact stats, but that was an awfully slow run from Indianapolis to Louisville.  I think it was less than 30 mph.  Also, the fact that this trip was made at night probably hendered the succes.  If a train is going to be competitive, it has to be fast enough to compete with cars and buses, and it must run at a time that encourages use.  This train could do neither.  It might be better to use the equipment from this train someplace else in the short term.  In the long term, find a faster route to Florida.  Maybe out of Cincinnati, (I know thats spelled wrong, lol) over a section of railroad that I think is called "the rathole".  I understand this section is in good condition due to more traffic.
I also know that Chicago to Cincy is somewhat faster than Chicago Louisville, which would probably work better.  Running a second train that covered this route during the day enroute to Cincy would double the frequency on corridor that has three large cities.  Hopefully, it could be worked out so that the train reached Nashville at a reasonable hour, and Atlanta early the next morning.  Then it could continue to Savannah, which is approximately 250 miles from Atlanta.  Form there, it could reach Florida destinations by early to late evening.  I know these are rough estimates, but this this could be a possible routing.

Yeah, I don't know the exact stats either, but over the summer I wanted to get down to Louisville, and I remember thinking that the train took almost twice as long to get down there as I would if I just drove. And the timing of the schedule was terrible too!

While there were indeed sections of track where the K-Card was forced to run 30 MPH or slower, that wasn't the main reason for it's poor timing. The trains overall slowness, and especially the poor arrival times were really influenced by the following two reasons.

The first major reason, and perhaps the biggest for the poor arrival times, is the fact that K-Card needed to operate on the schedule needed for the express shipping business. Express shipping dictated when the train needed to run, not passenger convenience.

The second major reason was, Amtrak's decision to combine the K-Card with the regular Cardinal. This decision was based upon two factors, one the obvious cost savings since they needed only one crew from Chicago to Indianapolis. The second reason for combing was Amtrak didn't need to obtain another time slot from the host Railroad.

 

[Chatter163]

>>The original CHI-FL train actually never ran through Atlanta, but I think Atlanta-FL service would see patronage. It's the missing link to the mid west. <<

I am not sure to which train you are referring, but Florida East Coast Railway's Royal Palm Florida Special ran from Miami to Chicago via Atlanta. See below details of the FEC 1957 schedule.

All Aboard Florida Rails

 

[WoodenMike]

Very simple.

We need the politicians to fund Amtrak, not wars.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

By "original train from Chicago to Miami not going through Atlanta" I am sure Amfleet was just referring to Amtrak.

Before Amtrak there were many routes from Chicago o Miami, and I, being born in Chattanooga, was well aware of them.

The Royal Palm (and New Royal Palm) did sometimes have through sleepr from Chicago to Miami but the bulk of the train went from Detroit and Cincinnati to.Chattanooga, ATL, Fla, alsthrough sleepers from Buffao and Cleveland.

There was a companion train to the Royal Palm known as the Ponce de Leon, but it did not have as much through business.

There were trains known as the Southland and the Flamingo which went Deroit, Cincinnati to Knoxville, Atlanta and Florida.

The bulk of the Chicago- Florida traffic(through Atlanta) was by the interliine trains of the Chicago and Eastern Illinois(from Chicago to Evansville, Ind.) the Louisville and Nashville(from Evansville to Nashvile), the Nashville, Chattanooga and St. Lous(from Nashville to Atlanta) and the Atlantic CoastLine from Atlanta to Jax, and the FEC from Jax to Miami. The top train on this route was known as the Dixie Flagler from 1940 until December 1954. Then it was re-equipped and renamed the Dixieland, and was discontinued in November 1957.

Other, slower trains on that route were the Dixie Flyer, and the Dixie Limited.

Last, but far from least, are two other routes from Chicago to Miami which did NOT go through Atlanta. They were the Illinois Central "CIty of Miami" which went straight down Ilinois(like the CIty of New Orleans)then turned over to BHM ALso the South WInd, a Pennsylvania RR train Chicago, Louisville,Nashville,Montgomery,Jax,Miami.A train called the Seminole ran on the City of Miami route.

The Dixie Flagler(later renamed Dixieland) and the South WInd and the City of Miami were the top streamliners. ALso the New Royal Palm, but again it was not PRIMARILY a Chicago train, but more Detroit, etc.

There was a train called the Kansas City-FLoridaSpecial went KC,Memphis, BHM, ATL, Jax, through sleeper to Miami.

If you go back into the 40's there were more trains on most of the above lines. If anyone really wants details I can provide them

The above are generalizations, in the sense that things can change from one year to the next, some through car services changed a lot, some trains went to one coast of Florida only, some both, and sometimes that sort of thing would change.Also, some equipment would be different in the winter because of many people going south for the warmer climes("snow birds").That often meant a lot more pullmans in the winter, some borrowed from off-line railroads, etc.

So, should anybody need anything really specific about former mid-west Florida serviceI can probably look it up if I don't know it from memory.