Post-Madrid, vigilance heightened on U.S. railways

[AlanB]

No picture taking, especially on RR property. Who decides if you are a good railfan or a bad railfan? If I saw someone on the NEC taking pictures of Acela, you can bet I would report them in an instant.

And I'm sorry to say, that unless they were on RR property, then you would be wrong for reporting them. Taking a photo is not of itself a suspicious activity. If it were, then I would not be able to take photos of my nieces and nephews at Disney World. After all they could also be used to figure out how to blow up the Cinderalla's Castle.

This is still a free country and as long as people are not tresspassing, they have the right to take a photo of anything they want, unless you can prove that they plan to use those photos to harm fellow American's.

This is exactly what the terrorists want and your irresposible reporting of someone taking photos is playing right into the terrorist's plans. Unless that person is standing on RR property, then you are violating their constitutional rights by reporting them. It's like we are slowly sliding into a new area of McCarthy'ism.

While I'm not sure that a railfan ID is the answer either, as pointed out by Chatter, whose to guarentee that a terrorist does not obtain such an id. But blanket reporting of someone standing on a bridge taking a photo of their favorite train is just as harmful to this country as the terrorists are or hope to be.

By the way, it might surprise you to learn that I have asked Amtrak police on more than one occasion if I might take pictures while in Penn Station NY since 9/11, and have been granted permission every time. They told me no video taping, but photos were ok, and I wasn't issued any letters or notes.

 

[Save Our Trains Michigan]

As a RR employee they have told us to report anyone taking a pictures of trains. Idon't agree with but as employees we have to follow rules.

 

[AlanB]

Just as a follow up, my taking a picture of an Acela Trainset in no way is going to help a terrorist. In fact a terrorist taking an external picture of an Acela Express isn't going to help him or her blow it up. That is pure an utter nonsense.

One doesn't need a picture of a train to know how to blow up a train. Additionally I know railfan's who can't tell the difference between an Acela and an HHP-8. So a terrorist having a picture of an Acela isn't going to help them blow up the correct train.

Yes if you see someone taking multiple pictures of train bridges, stations, or other track structures, that would be different. But someone taking a picture of a train isn't a threat, unless they are endangering themselves or others by tresspassing. If they are on private property, then by all means report them. Otherwise leave them alone.

Finally let me say that in no way should my postion as a moderator on this site be mis-construed as my speaking for Amtrak Unlimited. These are my opinions and mine alone. It is possible that the owner may agree or disagree with my statements, I have not consulted him in this matter. So please do not feel that I speak for the Amtrak Unlimited forums and they have not endorsed my opinions.

 

[AlanB]

As a RR employee they have told us to report anyone taking a pictures of trains. Idon't agree with but as employees we have to follow rules.

Actually Matt, I hate to tell you but that is a very grey area. Your employer cannot order you to do something that is illegal. If they do and you follow their instructions, then I as a citizen can sue both you and the RR for violating my rights. You are still responsible to know when an order is bad or illegal.

After all, if BNSF orders you to drive your freight train at 90 mph down a track rated for 40 that dead ends at a cliff and you know that it ends at a cliff, are you going to do it?

Yes you might loose your job for not following their rules in reporting me, but you are still required to follow common sense too.

Ps. I'm not trying to pick a fight with you by any means, but this nonsense ticks me off. Unless I'm on private property, this country cannot order me not to take pictures. We are not at war! Yes the President may have stated that we are at war with terrorists, but this country is not legally at war with them. Only Congress can declare war and they have not done so. Therefore the President and his cronies cannot turn this country into a police state.

 

[battalion51]

Just as a follow up, my taking a picture of an Acela Trainset in no way is going to help a terrorist. In fact a terrorist taking an external picture of an Acela Express isn't going to help him or her blow it up. That is pure an utter nonsense.
One doesn't need a picture of a train to know how to blow up a train. Additionally I know railfan's who can't tell the difference between an Acela and an HHP-8. So a terrorist having a picture of an Acela isn't going to help them blow up the correct train.

Yes if you see someone taking multiple pictures of train bridges, stations, or other track structures, that would be different. But someone taking a picture of a train isn't a threat, unless they are endangering themselves or others by tresspassing. If they are on private property, then by all means report them. Otherwise leave them alone.

You make a very valid point Alan. Any idiot can take a picture of a train, it's where the train is at and how many people are on it that are important considerations for terrorism. If they got their hands on the manuals for an engine, that's a problem. If they got into a dispatch center, that's a problem. But pictures of the Amtrak 186 in Winter Park, or the CSX 51 at Goose Creek pose about zero threat.

 

[Save Our Trains Michigan]

As a RR employee they have told us to report anyone taking a pictures of  trains. Idon't agree with but as employees we have to follow rules.

Actually Matt, I hate to tell you but that is a very grey area. Your employer cannot order you to do something that is illegal. If they do and you follow their instructions, then I as a citizen can sue both you and the RR for violating my rights. You are still responsible to know when an order is bad or illegal.

After all, if BNSF orders you to drive your freight train at 90 mph down a track rated for 40 that dead ends at a cliff and you know that it ends at a cliff, are you going to do it?

Yes you might loose your job for not following their rules in reporting me, but you are still required to follow common sense too.

Ps. I'm not trying to pick a fight with you by any means, but this nonsense ticks me off. Unless I'm on private property, this country cannot order me not to take pictures. We are not at war! Yes the President may have stated that we are at war with terrorists, but this country is not legally at war with them. Only Congress can declare war and they have not done so. Therefore the President and his cronies cannot turn this country into a police state.

And your right Alan thats why i don't report anyone UNLESS they look like there up to no good or trouble i just report Idiots that walk in front of my train and cars and trucks that i almost get the HELL with someone taking pictures of trains the pictures are already floating on the internet of modern day RR cars so what the HELL is the big deal all of the sudden with pictures i am still trying to figure it out.

 

[Save Our Trains Michigan]

Here is a link over to railfan.net on a report from a Railroader on what his RR is showing them to do with Railfans it was given to someone over there to post to show Railfans what is going on.

Railfan.net

This person is a RR Police Officer for a Class 1 RR.

Gentlemen, if I may:

Railfanning is not, in and of itself, a right. It's a hobby, an interest. Any person who wants to watch trains and photograph them may do so, where ever and when ever he or she wants to. That's freedom. And freedom is your right. You may railfan AS LONG AS YOU DO NOT TRESPASS to do it. That's the key. Why? What's the difference? If you trespass you become a liability if you get injured. Believe me when I say this. Railroads have paid out tremendous amounts of money to people who have slipped, tripped, been hit, etc. because they were on railroad property when it happened. It's simply a matter of economics. And of achieving and maintaining a good safety record.

If you are photographing trains from public property there is no violation of any law. That does not mean the police, railroad or local, might not 'check you out'. They also have a responsibility to make sure you are what you appear. If that happens, and the cop gives you a hard time, cooperate. Don't argue in the street, you'll loose. If you feel you were treated unjustly, file a complaint with the officers supervision and hash it out where you will get a fair hearing.

Please, remember to abide by the rules. I know that for every railfan that breaks the rules there are a hundred out there who do not. But like the rotten apple, it's that one who make the rest of us look bad.

 

[tp49]

This is the definition of trespass as I learned it in Torts class...A trespass is an unauthorized breech of the boundaries of another's land . No intent to commit trespass is required, meaning just doing it counts even if unintentional. However courts have moved moretowards showing liability for trespass in the case of intentional intrusion or negligence or some "abnormally dangerous activity" on the part of the defendant. People should do their reasonable due dilligence in attemptiong to find out where the boundaries for RR proprty are.

As for the railroad telling employees to report people taking pictures of trains being illegal I would disagree and I believe that while a suit could be filed against the railroad that could backfire against the railfan as well. The railroad has a "right" to protect their business interests and if they reasonably believe that there is interference coming from railfans (particularly those trespassing or intefering with RR operations) then the railroad has a a firm footing in any action against them.

There is a grey area when it comes to people taking pictures as Bill mentioned from the platform while they are taking a train trip or as someone else mentioned taking pictures from their backyards. However to say that it is illegal as a blanket statement is patently false. There is another grey area as well when it comes to public property as the local police could very well take action if they have robable cause" and a reasonable belief that what is occurring is causing some kind of problem as well independant of a railroad reporting them; however, all of these factors depend on the particular situation as the outcome would vary depending upon the facts.

 

[AlanB]

As for the railroad telling employees to report people taking pictures of trains being illegal I would disagree and I believe that while a suit could be filed against the railroad that could backfire against the railfan as well.  The railroad has a "right" to protect their business interests and if they reasonably believe that there is interference coming from railfans (particularly those trespassing or intefering with RR operations) then the railroad has a a firm footing in any action against them.
There is a grey area when it comes to people taking pictures as Bill mentioned from the platform while they are taking a train trip or as someone else mentioned taking pictures from their backyards.  However to say that it is illegal as a blanket statement is patently false.  There is another grey area as well when it comes to public property as the local police could very well take action if they have robable cause" and a reasonable belief that what is occurring is causing some kind of problem as well independant of a railroad reporting them; however, all of these factors depend on the particular situation as the outcome would vary depending upon the facts.

TP,

While realizing what you are studying, I still have to disagree, at least in part with your statement. Yes if I'm standing on RR property, then by all means the RR has the right to protect both their property and me from my stupidity. They can tell employees to report anyone taking pictures on RR property or for that matter anyone simply trespassing.

However for an RR to blanketly state that anyone taking a picture of a train should be reported is wrong and that's what I'm railing against. If I'm standing on a public bridge to take my picture, then I'm merely exercising my right of freedom. To subject every railfan standing on a bridge, on a public street, or some other public area, or in their backyard to a police investigation is discriminatory.

You are now discriminating against a particular class of people, railfans. Railfanning in and of itself is not a suspicious activity. Therefore subjecting all people who are not trespassing to a police investigation, simply for taking a photo is wrong.

The only way such a practice would not be discriminatory would be if this country were to ban taking pictures in public period. That means no pictures of the Empire State building, no pictures of the Grand Canyon, and so on and so on. That of course opens up a whole new legal argument, but we won't go there.

But again to sum up, telling RR employees to report anyone taking pictures while on RR property is ok. Telling their employees to report anyone anyplace taking a picture of a train is wrong, you have to have probably cause.

Not to mention the whole idea is utterly ridiculous, as I've already pointed out. One doesn't need a picture of a train to know how to buy a ticket, climb on board at one station, and leave a backpack behind as they get off at the next station.

 

[Chatter163]

As far as the railfan ID goes, it simply an idea guys. It would make the most sense to me for it to be issued by the AAR (since they're non federal, yet all railroads are associated with them). As far as the fee goes, I just used $10 as an example, whoever issues them can come up with the cost, $10 was just a random number I chose to demonstrate my point. As far as terrorists getting the ID is concerned goes, I think you should have to send a photocopy of a Valid US drivers license or US Passport, plus your name, address, social security number, current employer, references, etc. From there the AAR would request a full background check on the individual, analyze the criminal history (if any), talk to the references, and then determine whether you pose any threat to the railroad. The ID would then be issued and mailed to you if they see that you pose no threat. Once issued you would have to renew it every five years (just like you do your drivers license). The ID does not necessarily have to have a photo on it, but the ID in conjunction with your drivers license proves that you pose no threat. Really this is no different than what the airlines want to do with all of their passengers, identifying anyone suspicious who needs to be screened thoroughly or not allowed to fly at all based on their background.

This is why I cannot see the ID as a realistic premise. I do not agree that the airlines wish to have such a scheme; it would only limit their revenue as some passengers would refuse to endure such a process, and the airlines are not anxious to lose any more passengers. They comply begrudgingly when federal law requires them to do so, and understandably so.

I do not think the AAR would be either competent or eager to get involved in background checks of any sort, for whatever price. A background check--at least a security-minded one, done properly--is far more than the half-hearted ,five-minute internet search offered by so many websites. Proposals for a national security ID card, which were intended to accomplish the same thing for all residents, have so far been shot down (no pun intended). Among other concerns, inter alia, were expense, accuracy, effectiveness.

In short, of the Department of Homeland Security has yet to come up with such a scheme, I doubt the AAR or any other group could accomplish such a task, even on a small scale, with people who willingly equested such a card. h34r:

 

[tp49]

While realizing what you are studying, I still have to disagree, at least in part with your statement. Yes if I'm standing on RR property, then by all means the RR has the right to protect both their property and me from my stupidity. They can tell employees to report anyone taking pictures on RR property or for that matter anyone simply trespassing.
However for an RR to blanketly state that anyone taking a picture of a train should be reported is wrong and that's what I'm railing against. If I'm standing on a public bridge to take my picture, then I'm merely exercising my right of freedom. To subject every railfan standing on a bridge, on a public street, or some other public area, or in their backyard to a police investigation is discriminatory.

You are now discriminating against a particular class of people, railfans. Railfanning in and of itself is not a suspicious activity. Therefore subjecting all people who are not trespassing to a police investigation, simply for taking a photo is wrong.

The only way such a practice would not be discriminatory would be if this country were to ban taking pictures in public period. That means no pictures of the Empire State building, no pictures of the Grand Canyon, and so on and so on. That of course opens up a whole new legal argument, but we won't go there.

But again to sum up, telling RR employees to report anyone taking pictures while on RR property is ok. Telling their employees to report anyone anyplace taking a picture of a train is wrong, you have to have probably cause.

Not to mention the whole idea is utterly ridiculous, as I've already pointed out. One doesn't need a picture of a train to know how to buy a ticket, climb on board at one station, and leave a backpack behind as they get off at the next station.

Alan,

I think the point I was trying to make is this, to say that the practice is illegal regardless of the situation is not true. I agree there are grey areas depending upon the facts of the individual situation (meaning the outcome could be either legal or a Constitutional rights violation) and I think what I was trying to say (while more than half asleep) is this:

Regarding trespassers, both the railroads and railfans need to do their due dilligence regarding marking (for the railroads) and finding out the boundaries (for railfans) of where railroad property is within reason.

In situations where railfans are taking pictures on public property, I believe that railroads legally have a right to report suspicious activity (or what they perceive to be suspicious activity) and report it to the appropriate authorities to allow them to investigate. It is also not just railroads that report photographers on public proprerty but other members of the public as well. Also should the local authorities come across someone taking pictures they have a responsibility to look into the situation (if they deem the activity suspicious), and they would in most situations have probable cause to investigate. Most of the time nothing happens other than the police simply seeing what is going on because if told they hava a responsibility to investigate the situarion.

This issue is not just happening with railfans but with people who photograph airliners as well try to take pictures of airliners from public property or parking lots near major airports and I can guarantee either someone will call the authorities or if they are patrolling they will stop and ask what is going on.

For the most part though the only folks who will have problems are those that already give the hobby a black eye but again the legality would really depend on the circumstances and the facts of each individual situation.

 

[AlanB]

Regarding trespassers, both the railroads and railfans need to do their due dilligence regarding marking (for the railroads) and finding out the boundaries (for railfans) of where railroad property is within reason.

I don't disagree with you one iota on this point. A railfan on private property, uninvited, is a potential liability and should be reported.

In situations where railfans are taking pictures on public property, I believe that railroads legally have a right to report suspicious activity (or what they perceive to be suspicious activity) and report it to the appropriate authorities to allow them to investigate.  It is also not just railroads that report photographers on public proprerty but other members of the public as well.  Also should the local authorities come across someone taking pictures they have a responsibility to look into the situation (if they deem the activity suspicious), and they would in most situations have probable cause to investigate.  Most of the time nothing happens other than the police simply seeing what is going on because if told they hava a responsibility to investigate the situarion.

Again by and large no argument here either from me, as long as the rule of suspicious activity is being followed. However to blanketly tell a crew to call in each and every person taking a picture from private property would be wrong, IMHO. If that person is exhibiting questionable actions, then by all means make the call. But just because they are carrying a camera is not a reason to call them in.