The National Limited memories/questions

[National Limited]

Thought I would check out the knowledge base with a few memories of my first train trip as a 9 year old on the National Limited in 72 (or may have been in 71??). Forgive the disconnected memories.

Remember there were three coach cars behind the lounge. The last coach went to DC while the rest of the train went to NYC. Somewhere the last car was taken off and an electric engine was hooked up to the one car for the last leg to DC. Don't remember where this occured but do remember the coach filling up with other passengers and a lounge car attendant riding with us balancing a tray of sandwiches and drinks on his knees as he sat on the arm of a seat.

All the cars seemed old to me--40's look in style and furnishings. The diner had very heavy chairs while the lounge had huge reclining lazy-boy type chairs.

The Steward would come through and announce each meal service. I had never heard of a "steward" before and because my grandfather's name was Stewart I thought the man's name was Stewart. I couldn't understand how everyone knew his name or why they felt proper called him by his first name!

The conductor, if I remember correctly, wore a Penn Central uniform. I remember the buttons on his jacket and think they had the PC logo.

Don't know where the train originated but I picked it up in KC. I had been bugging my parents to take me on a train trip for some time and they pawned me off on both of my grandmothers who escorted me on the trip. I'm sure at some point they gave up on keeping me in my seat and let me run around the train to go check out everything.

Later in the 70's my father took me on a trip to DC after I earned Eagle Scout (think summer of 79?). We took the National Limited again but from St. Louis this time. Spent a lot of time in St. Louis Union Station which at that time was in horrible repair--concorse had two or three gates painted for Amtrak with the rest with chipping paint, broken glass, sliding doors off their tracks, neon lights blinking on and off, etc.

On one of the trips, don't remember which, each of the coach cars were a different style and layout. Think on the later trip our DC coach had a lounge area in the middle of the car--two L shape benches agains the wall with water fountian. On another trip the car had a large men's and women's lounge with a couch and two toilets.

Would be curious as to what RR ran the National Limited prior to Amtrak.

Well, thanks for the walk down memory lane. Would love to hear other memories of the National Limited.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Let me help you get started with this question. I have lots of old timetables at home(both Amtrak and pre-Amtrak) so I will double check some things tonight and let you know better Thursday morning, unless somebody else answers first.

First the easiest question, the old Pre-Amtrak National Limited was a Baltimore and Ohio train. It operated substantially from Washington to St. Loius. I say "substantially" because all or most of the B&O trains had a leg out of NYC to WAS on to St. Louis(or Chicago or wherever) but that NY-WAS line was not very strong. A typical pre-Amtrak train might have two cars from NY to STL and , say 10 cars from WAS to STL.I think in the very last years of B&O service, they dropepd that NY-WAS bit altogether.

The Capitol Limited (a name used today by Amtrak)was a sister B&O train to the National Limited. It ran largely WAS to CHI but some through cars from NYC(via WAS).

The inconsistencies you point out about equipment in the early days of Amtrak were not in the least unusual---it merely reflects that Amtrak bought all kinds of different equipment from railroads all over the country, little of it matching or forming a coherent whole. It was to be a few years before Amtrak built any equipment truly its own.

As to where the WAS branch separated from the NY, that is something I will look up tonight. Two come to mind, either Pittsburg or Harrisburg. In the old days the PRR had a few trains from WAS to CHI also, in competition with B&O. But under Amtrak all that competitiveness broke down, so conceivably the name National Llimited may have been used but for a train running over what really had been PRR track. This is something I could check in about three seconds if only I had a 1972 or so timetable with me at work(fat chance!) SO......maybe somebody else has an old timetable and can help......otherwise.....count on me to give you a more clear answer to some of this tomorrow.

It think your train must have originated in KC---cannot image it coming from any further west. Again, a quick look at timetables will help.

Thanks for sharing your memories on the confusion of Steward and Stewart.

Guess most of us have some similar memories.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

National Limited---I forgot something in my answer to you above.....I forget that I will not be at work on Thursday. So, on FRIDAY I will respond with better answers to your question.

 

[railman]

The New York-Baltimore-Washington segment of all B&O passenger service was discontinued in 1957. After that, the long-distance trains originated in Baltimore or Washington.

 

[National Limited]

Thanks Bill for your forthcoming help connecting the dots in my memory. Obviously thoes trips were very special to me. I'll be curious to know what you find out.

 

[National Limited]

Railman, thanks for the additional info on the NL pre-Amtrak. Was it customary for Amtrak to take over the name of a train but change it's historic route? I'm almost positive that both times I rode the NL it split somewhere and one car went to DC while the rest of the train went to NYC. Would Amtrak have ADDED additional stops after taking it over?

 

[railman]

B&O's National Limited was indeed a WAS-STL train. Amtrak chose that train name for its version of the National Limited because the Amtrak train served the same endpoints, even though it used a totally different route than the B&O version.

Amtrak's National Limited was primarily a NYP-STL train that was extended to Kansas City on the western end. There was also a section of the train that originated at Washington, DC. For a while the WAS section turned north at Perryville, MD and used the ex-PRR Port Road along the Susquehanna River to reach Harrisburg, PA. At HAR, the WAS section was combined with the NYP section. The process was reversed for the eastbound counterpart train.

Later, Amtrak ran the WAS section all the way up the NEC to Philadelphia, serving 30th Street Station while the NYP section only stopped at North Philadelphia Station, then ran west to HAR. The two sections caught up with each other at HAR. Shortly after that, both sections came into 30th Street to be combined and the power swapped from electric to diesel.

Also, for a short time, the National Limited carried a trancontinental sleeper that was handed off to one of the western trains at KCY. The entire National Limited service was discontinued by Amtrak sometime in the mid-1980's. The only East Coast-to-St Louis service available after that required connections in Chicago.

 

[P40Power]

Wasnt the National Limited cut in 1979 along with the Floridian and a few other routes? A few years ago there was ALMOST a new East Coast-St. Louis Train, the New England States. It was pretty close to comming into existance, it had time tables printed up and everything for it, kinda like the Skyline Connection that never came about. They kept playing around with this train, which would be Three Rivers train, practically all mail and nothing special passenger car wise.

The New England States was to be either a Boston-St. Louis train or an all CSX Boston-Chicago train. Either way, this would have replaced the Boston section of the Lake Shore Limited, albeit with horrible times along the Boston line (It was to come through Pittsfield both ways in the wee morning hours, around 1 AM!). The train was scheduled weird like this to meet the latest possible postal deadlines out of Springfield, it obviously wasnt a "passenger train". It would be nice to have a train directly from Pittsfield to St. Louis since I have family that lives there, but not at horrible times like that. For railfan and passenger sake, Im glad the train didnt go through. Early reports of this train even rumered that it would employ Superliners, though theres no way in hell Superliners could run into South Station, or any of the Upstate NY high platform stations.

A seperate Boston-Chicago or St. Louis train would be nice, but its an impossibility now in these uncertain times and the horrible car crunch we are in. I would like to see an additional Boston - Albany round trip daily, there should be enough Amfleets and P42s to handle that run.

 

[National Limited]

B40, I think you may be corrrect in the termination date of the NL. My aunt lived in DC and would take it to visit my grandmother (who had Alzheimer's) in KC. My aunt would say she needed the time on the train to get ready for the visit and then the time on the way back to forget about it. When they discontinued the NL she had an extended layover in Chicago. She did that route one time and then flew every time after that. My grandmother passed away in spring of 83. All that to say I think the 1979 date may be correct.

Railman, I do remember (at least I think) that the point of departure of the one Washington car from the rest of the train was about an hour (perhaps) from DC. I remember that DC car passed by a lake--the track was very close to the shore--on that part of the trip. I keep wanting to say the train split in Baltimore but not sure if that is accurate or not. I remember on the later trip (late 70's) that the car from DC sat by itself on a track under a train station for hours waiting for the rest of the train to arrive from NYC. It was a great time to go explore. The station (again, think it was Baltimore) was in horrible shape, was filthy, and wasn't in a very good neighborhood--seemed very industrial to me.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

National Limited, a lot has transpired since I was last at work on Wedneday P.M. Reading hurridly over everything I think your questions have pretty well been answered. You ask if it was customary for Amtrak to keep one train name but on a different route---no, not custmary, just happened so in this case.NOTE: A lot of trains have slight variations in their route.

Yes, 1979 was the date the NL, the FLoridian and some others were discontinued.

Harrisburg is the place where the WAS car was taken off the train.

The B&O NL went NY-Balt-Was,Cumberland, Clarksburg, Parkersburg,Cincinnati, St. Louis

The B&O Capitol Ltd went NY-Balt-WAS,Cumberland,Pittbsburgh Akron, Willard, Gary,CHI.

The Amtrak NL went NY Harrisburg(pick up car from WAS),Pittsburg, Columbus, Dayton, Indy, St.Louis,KC(Using Missouri Pacific tracks between KC and STL).And, as somebody else mentioned(I am reading this over quickly , making up from being off work yesterday)there was a through NYC to LA sleeper, transferred to the Super Chief at KC. It WAS INDEED on PRR tracks from StL--eastward.

I think between the others and myself we have probably answered your questions but do not hesitate to ask more if need be.