Why doesn't Amtrak add a freight car or two?

[dlagrua]

Years back several railroads added freight cars to their passenger consists in an effort to increase revenue. It was common to see a Railway Express car, mail car and other boxs cars at the rear of some passenger trains. I am almost certain that the Jersey Central RR added freight cars to their passenger consist. The US mail service no longer use pasengers trains to deliver mail and Railway Express went under. I just wonder why no deal was ever struck with UPS or Fedex to use amtrak routes. I'll bet that it has to do with the railroads that own the track not wanting any competition but if that were true Conrail would not exist. Anyone know why?

 

[Ryan]

Done, failed and discontinued.

 

[Big Iron]

Years back several railroads added freight cars to their passenger consists in an effort to increase revenue. It was common to see a Railway Express car, mail car and other boxs cars at the rear of some passenger trains. I am almost certain that the Jersey Central RR added freight cars to their passenger consist. The US mail service no longer use pasengers trains to deliver mail and Railway Express went under. I just wonder why no deal was ever struck with UPS or Fedex to use amtrak routes. I'll bet that it has to do with the railroads that own the track not wanting any competition but if that were true Conrail would not exist. Anyone know why?

Amtrak did haul mail and express freight. It was stopped during the Gunn Era. The Three Rivers sometimes had three units and 20+ cars, most of them MHC and Roadrailers. I doubt that Amtrak would have the capacity to haul significant UPS and Fed Ex freight. The UPS trailer trains on the freight railroads are both frequent and enormous. You are correct, the freight railroads did put some limitations on the size of Amtrak trains while they were hauling freight. Mainly the UP if I remember correctly.

 

[Hanno]

Years back several railroads added freight cars to their passenger consists in an effort to increase revenue. It was common to see a Railway Express car, mail car and other boxs cars at the rear of some passenger trains. I am almost certain that the Jersey Central RR added freight cars to their passenger consist. The US mail service no longer use pasengers trains to deliver mail and Railway Express went under. I just wonder why no deal was ever struck with UPS or Fedex to use amtrak routes. I'll bet that it has to do with the railroads that own the track not wanting any competition but if that were true Conrail would not exist. Anyone know why?

I can sort of understand why freight and mail has been discontinued. It has been tried and didn't work for reason stated above.

However, I often wonder why our government would not use Amtrak to ship soldiers, sailors, marines, and air force personnel on routes where it made sense, like to Quantico. Since our government is already subsidising Amtrak it seems like it would save us some money. Just a thought!

 

[amtrakwolverine]

It didn't fail the contract was dropped by amtrak and at least one Clint sued amtrak over the dropped contract.

 

[Big Iron]

Years back several railroads added freight cars to their passenger consists in an effort to increase revenue. It was common to see a Railway Express car, mail car and other boxs cars at the rear of some passenger trains. I am almost certain that the Jersey Central RR added freight cars to their passenger consist. The US mail service no longer use pasengers trains to deliver mail and Railway Express went under. I just wonder why no deal was ever struck with UPS or Fedex to use amtrak routes. I'll bet that it has to do with the railroads that own the track not wanting any competition but if that were true Conrail would not exist. Anyone know why?

I can sort of understand why freight and mail has been discontinued. It has been tried and didn't work for reason stated above.

However, I often wonder why our government would not use Amtrak to ship soldiers, sailors, marines, and air force personnel on routes where it made sense, like to Quantico. Since our government is already subsidising Amtrak it seems like it would save us some money. Just a thought!

The Army will be inititating rail transport for soldiers in the near future. Ft. Lee, in VA, has purchased some surplus VRE locomotives and gallery cars to transport soldiers from Ft. Lee to Ft. A.P. Hill near Fredericksburg. Amtrak will be contracted to run the trains. I can't recall the start date but it is in the near future.

 

[SunsetLimited01]

Question. Prior to Amtrak forming did hauling freight on the rear of passenger trains worked or was it failing?

 

[Dutchrailnut]

Freight has been hardly handled on passenger trains, a few mixed freights ran with a passenger car but thats a other story.

Amtrak has no rights to handle freights, they are a tennant on freight railroad and can not compete with the host railroad.

Mail was another story but USPS has elliminated all mail by rail.

 

[AlanB]

It didn't fail the contract was dropped by amtrak and at least one Clint sued amtrak over the dropped contract.

No, it failed on Amtrak. It failed to make the profits predicted by George Warrington who was President at the time it as started. It also failed the passengers totally, since the priorities of the freight were put ahead of the passengers. Just about every LD was running late because the trains all stopped to pick up/drop off freight delaying the passengers.

So Gunn killed it.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Freight has been hardly handled on passenger trains, a few mixed freights ran with a passenger car but thats a other story.

Amtrak has no rights to handle freights, they are a tennant on freight railroad and can not compete with the host railroad.

Mail was another story but USPS has elliminated all mail by rail.

I like your answers but am going to expand a little. Almost all preAmtrak trains handled some mail. In my hometown there were 12 trains in each direction a day and 11 of them handled mail.

This will shock some: but Railway Post office cars and the many other types of mail handlng cars were considered passenger cars, not freight. I could show hundreds of preAmtrak equipment listings which included mail, since mail ran on passenger trains for speed,not freight.

There is a distinction to be made between mail and freight and I do not know all the details that went into that. Some few genuine freight cars may have been on passenger trains at times."Reefers", refrigerator cars, come to mind.

Mail, plus baggage cars, were collectively called "head end", so much for the idea that they ran on the rear. Yes, here and there a head end car ran on the rear but not usually.

And there were mixed trains but that is another story. Those were very short branch line trains in isolated rural areas where that one a day,or not even daily was all the small towns got.

Keep in mind that loading and unloading freight cars en route would slow things down a lot.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

It didn't fail the contract was dropped by amtrak and at least one Clint sued amtrak over the dropped contract.

No, it failed on Amtrak. It failed to make the profits predicted by George Warrington who was President at the time it as started. It also failed the passengers totally, since the priorities of the freight were put ahead of the passengers. Just about every LD was running late because the trains all stopped to pick up/drop off freight delaying the passengers.

So Gunn killed it.

then why was amtrak sued over it by the clients they hauled for?

 

[zephyr17]

Freight has been hardly handled on passenger trains, a few mixed freights ran with a passenger car but thats a other story.

Amtrak has no rights to handle freights, they are a tennant on freight railroad and can not compete with the host railroad.

Mail was another story but USPS has elliminated all mail by rail.

Railway Express was carried on most passenger trains and was a significant source of income. Railway Express Agency, owned by a consortium of railroads, was the UPS of its day (including door to door delivery by fleets of local trucks). It was the primary way of shipping fast small shipments. The movement of express away from the passenger trains, due in large part to the rapidly fragmenting network in the late 1950s and 1960s, was another significant blow to passenger train revenue.

Both mail AND express revenue were critical components of the profit model of "traditional" passenger service.

BTW-my grandfather and mother both worked for the Railway Express Agency. My grandfather was the manager of the Indianapolis office.

 

[AlanB]

It didn't fail the contract was dropped by amtrak and at least one Clint sued amtrak over the dropped contract.

No, it failed on Amtrak. It failed to make the profits predicted by George Warrington who was President at the time it as started. It also failed the passengers totally, since the priorities of the freight were put ahead of the passengers. Just about every LD was running late because the trains all stopped to pick up/drop off freight delaying the passengers.

So Gunn killed it.

then why was amtrak sued over it by the clients they hauled for?

Because the Washington fruit growers liked the express service for their fruit and they had a signed contract that Gunn tried to cancel. Other's either didn't care about the signed contracts and just found another way to ship or perhaps their contracts were up at that point.

 

[Guest]

Since our government is already subsidising Amtrak it seems like it would save us some money. Just a thought!

It also subsidizes bus, truck, and air travel.

 

[Hanno]

Since our government is already subsidising Amtrak it seems like it would save us some money. Just a thought!

It also subsidizes bus, truck, and air travel.

Indeed it does by means of providing airports and roads, etc! However, since the governement does not own (with the exception of General Motors which is hopefully only temporary) the means of transportation, the bus lines, trucking companies, and airlines, and does actually own Amtrak, I thought it would make sense to use what it already owns instead of paying others. Just a thought!

 

[stntylr]

However, I often wonder why our government would not use Amtrak to ship soldiers, sailors, marines, and air force personnel on routes where it made sense, like to Quantico. Since our government is already subsidising Amtrak it seems like it would save us some money. Just a thought!

Yes, It would save money but it would be an awfully slow way to send people across the country. Today most large bases either have an airport on base or there is a civilian airfield nearby.

 

[had8ley]

Amtrak has no rights to handle freights, they are a tennant on freight railroad and can not compete with the host railroad.

Didn't the UP sue Amtrak in an attempt to stop the ill fated freight boondoogle before it started and lost the suit ?

 

[Dutchrailnut]

Amtrak has no rights to handle freights, they are a tennant on freight railroad and can not compete with the host railroad.

Didn't the UP sue Amtrak in an attempt to stop the ill fated freight boondoogle before it started and lost the suit ?

No, UP lost case of proving that Mail and Express was freight.

Amtrak still can not run freight on passenger trains.

and no not each and every package forwarder is concidered Mail and Express.

anyway the delays to passenger trains caused by adding freight and express cars was not worth the few bucks Amtrak made.

once the USPS canceled all mail trains, M&E became a loss factor.

 

[rrdude]

And IIRC, many of Amtrak's MHC's are stored in the yards just south of LAX Union Station. Alan, did Amtrak eve experiment with the RoadRailer equipment, or am I just blending NS and Amtrak in my poor memory?

One would think that Amtrak could make a little extra cash if they managed the end-point to end-point "freight" better. But as many have said, it really did wreck havoc on the PAX timetable.

 

[Ryan]

Amtrak has no rights to handle freights, they are a tennant on freight railroad and can not compete with the host railroad.

Didn't the UP sue Amtrak in an attempt to stop the ill fated freight boondoogle before it started and lost the suit ?

No, UP lost case of proving that Mail and Express was freight.

In other words, yes - UP sued and lost.

And IIRC, many of Amtrak's MHC's are stored in the yards just south of LAX Union Station. Alan, did Amtrak eve experiment with the RoadRailer equipment, or am I just blending NS and Amtrak in my poor memory?

One would think that Amtrak could make a little extra cash if they managed the end-point to end-point "freight" better. But as many have said, it really did wreck havoc on the PAX timetable.

Yes, they did - here's a picture:

 

[Dutchrailnut]

And IIRC, many of Amtrak's MHC's are stored in the yards just south of LAX Union Station. Alan, did Amtrak eve experiment with the RoadRailer equipment, or am I just blending NS and Amtrak in my poor memory?

One would think that Amtrak could make a little extra cash if they managed the end-point to end-point "freight" better. But as many have said, it really did wreck havoc on the PAX timetable.

the little extra cash became a very very little cash, since maintenance, extra engines, extra fuel , extra switching cost etc etc ate the profits beyond belief.

 

[jis]

And some of us were half jokingly worried that Warrington would try to bring along some of those MHCs along with him to NJT to start his little in state freight business. :lol: Instead he got the lard-a$$ed double deckers to slow down the trains.

 

[George Harris]

With the exception of very frequent stop locals and the premier trains, such as the Southerner and Crescent, and possibly the Royal Palm, Southern was hangining piccyback on the ack of almost all passenger trains during the early to mid 1960's. Occasionally there would be other types of cars. On one occasion, waiting for the westbound Tennessean in Knoxville, 1965, I think, thc northbound Carolina Special came in with 4 "Big John" hoppers on the back. Generally, every night but Sunday the eastbound Tennessean would have anywhere from 6 to 10 piggback flats going east out of Memphis. They would be tacked on at the yard, not at the station. There would aslo be multiple head end cars on most nights, so the train could get up to about 20 cars, with only two fo them for people.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

Don't confuse a mixed freight train with a passenger train with freight cars.

two distinct different ways of running specially with freight brakes.

 

[the_traveler]

If trains had freight cars attached along with passenger cars on Amtrak, would it operate at the passenger limit of 79 MPH or the freight limit of 60-70 MPH?