The New Pullman Sleeper prices are now posted

[TimePeace]

*yawn* ... Pullmans? What Pullmans?

 

[Bob Dylan]

:hi: Thanks Anderson for remembering my Posts about NdM Passenger service! For the benefit of you and Chris, basically the Salinas Brothers looted the Treasury of Mexico during Carlos' term in office. Due to International pressures from, as was said the US Government, and the World Bank, Mexico went on a Privitization kick that completely changed the Economic system of Mexico! The Mexican Governemnt had subsidized most things for decades including Food,Utilities,Education and Transportation, but once the "New" Financial plan went into place basically everything in Mexico was up for grabs except Pemex, the National Oil Company! This is basically the reason that Carlos Slim of Mexico is now the Richest Person in the World and that so many Foriegn Companies have taken over Mexican Companies! (ie WalMart is the Biggest Grocer, Chase and Citi Bank are financial Giants etc. etc.)

As to Passenger Rail, I doubt that it ever again will be a factor in Mexico except for the Two Tourist Trains that still run, the Copper Canyon LD Train and the Tequila Express, a Day Trip Train between Guadalajara and Tequila! (Also Mexico has one of the worlds most Extensive Bus Transportation Systems reaching even the most remote Villages and Pueblos!) I do wonder what happened to the Old Equipment, including much of the Mopac Eagle stuff, that used to make up the consists of so many Mexican Trains?? Considering what it cost, the Best Trip for the Money I ever made was from Laredo to Mexico City on the old Aztec Eagle in an ex-Mopac Pullman with a Diner, Dome and Lounge Car! It cost all of $28!!! :wub:

 

[AlanB]

I will be fair about the cost comparison. In 1971 a total Amtrak roomette fare from NYC to Chicago was $98.11 one way (source Amtrak fare book). In 2012 dollars that is $566.30. If we combine the coach fares to today's roomette prices, this comes out at approximately Amtrak high bucket. Conclusion: prices have held pretty much constant with inflation, which over that period averaged about 4.2%. Amtrak Sleepers are not more expensive than they were in 1971.

Inflation calculator is here:

Inflation calculator

Also keep in mind that in 1971 a sleeper ticket did not include meals in the dining car, one still had to pay for them separately. Today meals are included in the price of the ticket.

 

[jebr]

As to the point of "modern amenities in the middle of nowhere", I think that there is a marked difference between, on the one hand, ensuring that there is a viable infrastructure in place in areas such as Wyoming and North Dakota, or decent ground transportation links between Omaha and Denver, instead of having to go back and rebuild large chunks of the system every time there's a resource boom or a population shift.

Our population has been shifting in the same direction for a half century or more. Why shouldn't our tax expenditures follow the same general path?

I'd also take pains to point out that there are probably plenty of rural taxpayers who want to know why they're being asked to pitch in for urban mass transit that there's not even a city in their state that could qualify for grants for.

What would you say if we changed the rules so that no urban resident had to pay for any exclusively rural subsidies and no rural resident had to pay for any exclusively urban subsidies?

The question is, ultimately, where do we draw the line for "middle of nowhere" and semi-populated rural areas? No, we shouldn't be investing in four-lane highways through the middle of nowhere just to serve some local populace, but there's relatively few instances where that's even happening. Most of our four-lane highways through rural areas support some kind of intercity traffic that demands a four-lane highway. Even the urban populace uses it from time to time, and intercity infrastructure is necessary to haul goods between cities. Two-lane tar roads are necessary to facilitate transportation, and that infrastructure is relatively built already and only requires maintenance. Expecting rural towns to have zero tar roads into them is not a good way to save money.

Also, believe it or not, property taxes at minimum help pay for (and often pay for much or all of) township roads that go out to the rural areas. They're only dirt roads, so anything less would literally be no access.

Subsidizing flights into extremely remote areas seems foolish, yes. But stating that anything outside of the core city/suburbia is unworthy to receive anything outside of what they can pay for themselves is also foolish. It's part of living in a society: there's things that we pay for that certain people don't like, but are necessary for other people and can't be efficiently provided for otherwise.

 

[Steve4031]

Let's get back to the Pullmans.

 

[jis]

I will be fair about the cost comparison. In 1971 a total Amtrak roomette fare from NYC to Chicago was $98.11 one way (source Amtrak fare book). In 2012 dollars that is $566.30. If we combine the coach fares to today's roomette prices, this comes out at approximately Amtrak high bucket. Conclusion: prices have held pretty much constant with inflation, which over that period averaged about 4.2%. Amtrak Sleepers are not more expensive than they were in 1971.

Inflation calculator is here:

Inflation calculator

Also keep in mind that in 1971 a sleeper ticket did not include meals in the dining car, one still had to pay for them separately. Today meals are included in the price of the ticket.

So it is not surprising that as they were not making money then, they are not making money now either. Sad.

 

[JackieTakestheTrain]

On a different note: Are there pictures of the interiors of these cars or even artist renderings that are public? Would love to see the insides (and dream a bit!)

 

[RRUserious]

They gonna have old fashioned porters, too?

 

[afigg]

On a different note: Are there pictures of the interiors of these cars or even artist renderings that are public? Would love to see the insides (and dream a bit!)

There is a sales sheet with key dates on the Pullman Rail Journeys website. The schedule calls for the Pullman website to premier in June, so that is likely when the formal marketing photos of the interiors and cars will be posted. Reservations will be taken starting in August. The reason for no interior photos yet could be is that they are still working on refurbing the cars and redoing the interiors.

The sales sheet lists an average of 10 staff members per departure. They will have to sell a lot of rooms to pay for the staff.

Media and travel familiarization tours are planned for September. So travel agents and media people for the high end travel industry may get some free trips!

 

[Anderson]

On a different note: Are there pictures of the interiors of these cars or even artist renderings that are public? Would love to see the insides (and dream a bit!)

There is a sales sheet with key dates on the Pullman Rail Journeys website. The schedule calls for the Pullman website to premier in June, so that is likely when the formal marketing photos of the interiors and cars will be posted. Reservations will be taken starting in August. The reason for no interior photos yet could be is that they are still working on refurbing the cars and redoing the interiors.

The sales sheet lists an average of 10 staff members per departure. They will have to sell a lot of rooms to pay for the staff.

Media and travel familiarization tours are planned for September. So travel agents and media people for the high end travel industry may get some free trips!

What does it tend to cost per-person either per-day or per-round-trip for the OBS on something like this?

 

[cirdan]

That may be a market mistake on their part to not take on passengers on at least a couple of larger market stops in-between. This is such a different type of sleeper service from Amtrak offers is that it makes no sense for Amtrak to adjust their Viewliner sleeper assignments based on a 2 day week premium service schedule.

That's what I was thinking.

I can see why in terms of fares there will not be any reduction for travelling short, but in terms of being able to join or leave the train in stations where the train stops anyway, it's a bit strange to rule that out from the start.

I guess this is only a preliminary plan though, and that more detailed schedules will be published closer to the date.

 

[cirdan]

I believe it was a report on the 2007 Census of Agriculture that first opened my eyes to the number of "family farms" having less than $10,000 in sales. Does that sound like a fully functioning farm to you or does that sound like someone who is shooting for the absolute minimum amount of productive cropland and/or minimum number of livestock to receive their tax credit?

A lot of people (like the Amish) don't really farm to sell but produce most of what they need themselves. $10,000 in sales sounds enough to me to purchase all the things you can't make yourself.

If you value freedom above capitalism, you will agree that nobody has to trade if they don't need to.

 

[jis]

The sales sheet lists an average of 10 staff members per departure. They will have to sell a lot of rooms to pay for the staff.

The staff size of 10 suggests that they will basically have 2 Sleeping Cars (1 SCA per car), a Lounge (1LSA + 1conductor) and a Diner (4SA + 2 Chefs) on each trip.

I suppose the Pullman Conductor will be subordinate to the Amtrak Conductor, i.e. effectively be an Assistant Conductor.

I wonder if Amtrak will spring for a second P32ACDM on the NYP - ALB leg considering that the cars are claimed to be heavyweights.

 

[cirdan]

I wonder if Amtrak will spring for a second P32ACDM on the NYP - ALB leg considering that the cars are claimed to be heavyweights.

Are there still suffiecient spare unist available?

Noting that due to the schedules, such a unit would not really be avaliable for any other meaningful use.

Also, am I the only one to find it surprising they want to start in November? That's not exactly prime travelling season and they may find the path to breaking even very long.

 

[jis]

I wonder if Amtrak will spring for a second P32ACDM on the NYP - ALB leg considering that the cars are claimed to be heavyweights.

Are there still suffiecient spare unist available?

For occasional use I am sure they could dig up one, say by subbing a P42 on a NFL train instead of it carry a P32 all the way, which they sometimes do.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I believe it was a report on the 2007 Census of Agriculture that first opened my eyes to the number of "family farms" having less than $10,000 in sales. Does that sound like a fully functioning farm to you or does that sound like someone who is shooting for the absolute minimum amount of productive cropland and/or minimum number of livestock to receive their tax credit?

A lot of people (like the Amish) don't really farm to sell but produce most of what they need themselves. $10,000 in sales sounds enough to me to purchase all the things you can't make yourself.

We live in what could be arguably termed the most hyper-capitalistic society in the history of mankind. I hear what you're trying to say but I am not aware of any trade-averse population large enough to explain these numbers, including the Amish.

If you value freedom above capitalism, you will agree that nobody has to trade if they don't need to.

Some of our justices on our supreme court made similar claims as they began to lay the groundwork for the eventual dismantling of the PPACA. It's true that there are millions of Americans who live without any conventional trade to their name, but most of these folks are not avoiding trade as part of a conscious decision. They are without trade because they are destitute and/or because they are incarcerated. In other words they are not likely to be running any family farms or showing up in any agriculture report that doesn't revolve around controlled substances.

 

[afigg]

I wonder if Amtrak will spring for a second P32ACDM on the NYP - ALB leg considering that the cars are claimed to be heavyweights.

Are there still suffiecient spare unist available?

Noting that due to the schedules, such a unit would not really be avaliable for any other meaningful use.

Also, am I the only one to find it surprising they want to start in November? That's not exactly prime travelling season and they may find the path to breaking even very long.

If Pullman Sleeper sticks to the routes shown in their brochure, the Pullman cars will be added to the northbound LSL only 2 days a week. The eastbound trip would be via Pittsburgh and Philly. So a second P32ACDM 2 days a week on the northbound leg only should not present much of an additional equipment load. Although they would end up with an additional P32 in Albany, but they can shuffle the engines around.

As for starting in November, that is before the Thanksgiving and December holiday season. The November start date is likely just the way their schedule worked out once the company decided to pursue the luxury sleeper service.

 

[jis]

Although they would end up with an additional P32 in Albany, but they can shuffle the engines around.

They do a lot of P32 shuffling at Albany anyway, since it is the home base for P32s and they have to change out P42s for P32s for several trains headed to Penn Station each day and vice versa.

 

[Gratt]

Am I the only one bothered by the high prices for the second passenger in a room?

Once a room is purchased the additional costs of adding another person (even if food is included) are small. That is why Amtrak only charges the rail fare when you add an additional person to a room.

I understand charging $1050 for the room with one person, but to ask an additional $900 for a second person sounds ridiculous. At that point I might as well get another room.

 

[me_little_me]

Am I the only one bothered by the high prices for the second passenger in a room?

Once a room is purchased the additional costs of adding another person (even if food is included) are small. That is why Amtrak only charges the rail fare when you add an additional person to a room.

I understand charging $1050 for the room with one person, but to ask an additional $900 for a second person sounds ridiculous. At that point I might as well get another room.

When they figure out that their customers have figured it out, it will change.

 

[Anderson]

Am I the only one bothered by the high prices for the second passenger in a room?

Once a room is purchased the additional costs of adding another person (even if food is included) are small. That is why Amtrak only charges the rail fare when you add an additional person to a room.

I understand charging $1050 for the room with one person, but to ask an additional $900 for a second person sounds ridiculous. At that point I might as well get another room.

When they figure out that their customers have figured it out, it will change.

This actually also shows up in the B/C accommodation costs: For one person, it seems to (under some circumstances, at least) be identical in cost to book one person in a single bedroom as to book one person in a double bedroom...which makes no sense whatsoever. If anything, the fare structure seems to encourage lone travelers to go with level B and couples to go with level C (rather than vice-versa). Note that none of the figures involve a single supplement (at least, as far as I can tell).

My gut says that the final numbers may be different than these...there's just enough that doesn't make sense in the numbers to suggest that the samples may be a little way off from what actually comes out.

 

[Blackwolf]

Resurrecting an old topic..

But, does anyone have some first-hand knowledge on how this venture is working out? Considering I've not heard a peep about Iowa Pacific's Pullman service in some months, I got curious. They are selling accommodations, and the next scheduled departure is from Chicago this Wednesday (Nov. 14th) enroute to New Orleans (I imagine hitched to the back of CONO.) According to the website, all choices of accommodation on that trip are still available... I'm not sure that is a good sign.

 

[MikefromCrete]

According to Trains News Wire, they held a dedication of their New Orleans equipment in Chicago last week, five cars, I think, painted in the old IC's colors of chocolate brown and orange. So, they're just getting started.

 

[Tumbleweed]

The New Pullman company has now posted loads of new info on the service including accommodation prices. The cost of the Pullamn rail journeys are not inexpensive but it appears that they are providing a true first class experience.

I believe that the prices are only for sleepers. The cost of dining in probably additional.

Here it is:

Travel by Pullman

and here is the Pullman equipment roster

Pullman Roster

linky no workee here....

 

[ScottRu]

Alas, the "Travel by Pullman," and the "Pullman Roster" links seem to have been pulled. I'll try to track them down on YouTube.