Nice research. The low Kansas numbers and the relativly high numbers trending to Pueblo/Denver (Raton/La Junta) suggest a "Front Range" service (Combine LAX-Belen with the SWC, DEN-CHI with the CZ) in addition to the Transcon reroute. Big issues are as always funding upgrade/maintainance Alberquerque-Trinidad and the UP/BNSF single track through Colorado Springs.
Bill to Save Southwest Chief
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George Harris
Engineer
Remember that the City of New Orleans was moved from its traditional route through Grenada to the freight route through Yazoo City which was longer and slower and had less population and ridership with very little outcry because ICG quit maintaining the passenger route. Here we are talking about moving a train to a shorter, faster, and higher populated routing. Why was this not done long ago?
By the way, by the time the CNO was moved the ride quality could best be described as exciting. A look at the track near a road crossing showed rail so worn the tops of the joint bars were shiny from wheel flange contact, and the tie conditions was just barely meeting the FRA track class necessary to run at the 79 mph speed limit permitted by the signal system.
By the way, by the time the CNO was moved the ride quality could best be described as exciting. A look at the track near a road crossing showed rail so worn the tops of the joint bars were shiny from wheel flange contact, and the tie conditions was just barely meeting the FRA track class necessary to run at the 79 mph speed limit permitted by the signal system.
Swimmingcat
Train Attendant
I believe that the 5/25 (Pioneer) split started taking place in DEN in 1991 (I have an old Trains mag on it - "Amtrak returns to WY"). I rode DEN - Ogden in 1993 IIRC. 25/26 (& 35/36) ended in 1997. For many of those towns along the I-80 corridor -- Amtrak was a nice alternative to Greyhound or air. As for this SWC reroute -- many of the points in this thread are good ones! I'm wondering however, if this occurs, would there still be "Thruway" (in reality a regular Greyhound run) service from DEN or C Springs to ALB so I could ride the SWC?
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jis
Permanent Way Inspector
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Your are correct. I got the numbers mixed up. It was the 5/25 split that moved to Denver., and it happened around 91. So there was quite some time between the move of 5/25/35 to the Colorado route and 25 moving back to the Wyoming route.
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Devil's Advocate
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Nathanael
Guest
Amtrak currently has a Thruway bus from Raton to Denver, which is actually Greyhound.
I looked at the well-hidden Greyhound map again, and Greyhound's route "578" already runs Denver-Raton-Albuquerque (and onward to El Paso). There seems to be little difficulty in extending this to create a Thruway bus route from ABQ to Denver via Raton, though it would require tweaking the SW Chief's schedule to make the westbound connection. (When on time, the SW Chief arrives too early in the morning in LA anyway.)
Or a separate bus run could be run under contract to Amtrak, which would allow for stops in Las Vegas NM and Trinidad CO.
On another point, I am quite sure Amtrak will continue to stop at Albuquerque.
The situation at Phoenix is different. I believe there actually used to be a van service which connected Maricopa to Phoenix, correct me if I'm wrong. But with triweekly service, it's barely worth the effort of running connecting service -- the Sunset needs to go daily ASAP.
As for the Scouts, they already take a bus for nearly an hour from the Raton station to Philmont. According to Google Maps, it would be ~3:15 to bus to Philmont from Albuquerque or 4 hours to bus from Denver (though the existing buses seem to add a lot of padding time). Philmont can either provide more of its own chartered bus service or simply keep pointing Scouts to the existing charter options (there is, for example, a *daily* bus service from Denver Union Station to Philmont, albeit quite expensive and slow). Or if they're really serious scouts they can hike in. ;-)
I looked at the well-hidden Greyhound map again, and Greyhound's route "578" already runs Denver-Raton-Albuquerque (and onward to El Paso). There seems to be little difficulty in extending this to create a Thruway bus route from ABQ to Denver via Raton, though it would require tweaking the SW Chief's schedule to make the westbound connection. (When on time, the SW Chief arrives too early in the morning in LA anyway.)
Or a separate bus run could be run under contract to Amtrak, which would allow for stops in Las Vegas NM and Trinidad CO.
On another point, I am quite sure Amtrak will continue to stop at Albuquerque.
The situation at Phoenix is different. I believe there actually used to be a van service which connected Maricopa to Phoenix, correct me if I'm wrong. But with triweekly service, it's barely worth the effort of running connecting service -- the Sunset needs to go daily ASAP.
As for the Scouts, they already take a bus for nearly an hour from the Raton station to Philmont. According to Google Maps, it would be ~3:15 to bus to Philmont from Albuquerque or 4 hours to bus from Denver (though the existing buses seem to add a lot of padding time). Philmont can either provide more of its own chartered bus service or simply keep pointing Scouts to the existing charter options (there is, for example, a *daily* bus service from Denver Union Station to Philmont, albeit quite expensive and slow). Or if they're really serious scouts they can hike in. ;-)
Ryan
Court Jester
Philmont also already offers a bus from Denver for people that want to fly there.
That said, I'd much rather spend an hour on the bus like I did, than 4 hours.
That said, I'd much rather spend an hour on the bus like I did, than 4 hours.
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Eugene Small
Guest
It is 230/240 miles from Amarillo to Boy scout camp by way of Tucumcari; by way of Clayton it is little further. Out here it is nothing to drive a 100 miles to the next town.
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Ryan
Court Jester
OK?
rrdude
Engineer
As much as I hate to lose service over the Raton Pass, (one of my all time favorite sections of Amtrak, seriously) the numbers, the support, and the reality dictate moving to the Transcon. It really, really bites for the the small communities and Raton and Philmont. (Yea! I'm going back to Philmont in 2015 with my twins!) If the service is still running then (doubtful) we'll prolly catch the Chief to Cali, or maybe home)
But, as much as I don't like it, the Transcon makes better economic sense. Too bad the states can't come up with a "connector" train, but those days are long gone too.
But, as much as I don't like it, the Transcon makes better economic sense. Too bad the states can't come up with a "connector" train, but those days are long gone too.
Southwest Chief to the Transcon.
The "Wheat Field Express Service" from Denver to Kansas City via Dodge City.
Sure it would have to directional running in Colorado, and a very long day run. Cover the town and community along the way. Be much easier to sell to the states.
The "Wheat Field Express Service" from Denver to Kansas City via Dodge City.
Sure it would have to directional running in Colorado, and a very long day run. Cover the town and community along the way. Be much easier to sell to the states.
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Andy
Guest
You made many excellent points in this post, but it should be pointed out that the Railrunner does not connect in any remotely convenient way to the SW Chief in ABQ. The connection times at ABQ station vary from many hours to overnight, depending on the day and the direction. Although I can't find any statistics for connections between Railrunner and Amtrak, I would be astonished if they were higher than a few people per week.
To the extent that the Railrunner was designed with any purpose in mind, it was designed for weekday work commuters, not for connections with Amtrak (or airplanes).
Take care.
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
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The Bill to save the Southwest Chief has essentially died in the NM Senate. The Senate has adjourned to Jan 2015 without considering the bill.
The SWC gets into ABQ at 3:55 PM (westbound) and 11:42 AM (eastbound).
The Northbound Rail Runner to Santa Fe leaves Downtown ABQ at the following times (I'm not including early morning hours that don't fall within the SWC's schedule):
Weekdays - 4:26 PM, 5:34 PM, 6:48 PM
Saturdays - 1:46 PM, 6:28 PM, 8:19 PM
Sunday - 1:46 PM, 6:28 PM
While it's not as optimal as taking the shuttle from Lamy, it's still possible to get to Santa Fe using the RailRunner if you ride the SWC.
Edit: This is in reply to Andy.
The Northbound Rail Runner to Santa Fe leaves Downtown ABQ at the following times (I'm not including early morning hours that don't fall within the SWC's schedule):
Weekdays - 4:26 PM, 5:34 PM, 6:48 PM
Saturdays - 1:46 PM, 6:28 PM, 8:19 PM
Sunday - 1:46 PM, 6:28 PM
While it's not as optimal as taking the shuttle from Lamy, it's still possible to get to Santa Fe using the RailRunner if you ride the SWC.
Edit: This is in reply to Andy.
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Andy
Guest
Possible yes, but hours to overnight connection, as I said. (Remember, the westbound SWC just left Lamy an hour or so before... so even that one, best, connection adds hours of backtracking to the trip.)
If you drive to Santa Fe, you will be there before the Railrunner _departs_ Albuquerque, in virtually every case.
And it is even worse in the other direction.
I have lived in Santa Fe for the entire history of the Railrunner's existence, and since I also work in the SF area, I have never yet found a reason to ride the Railrunner except as a tourist. I would like to see the Railrunner improved (double tracked, hourly service, extended to Los Alamos, eventually extended to Denver), but the present service is useless to me, and I am guessing, most other people who don't commute to 9 to 5 jobs in ABQ.
Maybe the Railrunner has some value as a connection for those arriving on the SWC who do not have access to a car in ABQ. But there is no question it is tres inconvenient as a connecting service. Admittedly, I am coming at this from the perspective of a Santa Fe resident, so I have a car available: things might look different to someone from out of town. But then, I suspect that the great majority of people getting on and off the SWC in Lamy and ABQ are New Mexicans. Perhaps that's a mistaken impression, based on projection from my own case?
Take care.
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Andy
Guest
Rereading these posts, I guess I now see that we basically agree, anyway: it is possible to get to Santa Fe using the Railrunner if you ride the SWC, but it's not as optimal as taking the shuttle from Lamy, just as you said (to the tune of several to many hours less optimal). So I think we can agree that Nathaniel is mistaken in saying that in the presence of the Railrunner, Lamy "isn't very important for serving Santa Fe." Although his other points and his overall message remain completely valid, in my opinion. Sigh.
Take care.
Yeah, my confusion was over the "overnight" portion of your post. I couldn't figure out where that came into play, given that the RR runs throughout the afternoon and evening, unless the westbound SWC was super late or something. Then people would be stuck overnight.
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Eugene Small
Guest
If jis is correct thenThe guessing is over. New Mexico down, Kansas down both govt. sessions over and no money, Colorado still in session but no money yet, bil loaded with demands. If you were in BNSF shoes what would do with that line?
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Nathanael
Guest
Problem for this excellent proposal is finding slots from Pueblo to Denver. Pueblo to Denver, on its own, is a good proposal and one worth spending money on. But for some reason that proposal hasn't gone anywhere yet, and is now on the back burner. :-( It was anticipated that there would be enough room if the through N-S freight trains were moved out east to a freshly-constructed bypass route, but that has dropped to "low priority" in the state rail plan and basically been forgotten about too.
I always thought Santa Fe was much more of a "destination city", based on general vibes regarding tourism trends -- I'd expect Albuquerque is probably mostly locals. But I don't know how to get hard facts on that. Railrunner was specifically set up to get residents from Albuquerque to jobs in Santa Fe because Santa Fe has a lot more jobs than residents; a place with more jobs than residents is often more of a destination than a source of travellers.Guest_Andy said:
I was definitely looking at it from the point of view of people visiting Santa Fe; I assumed that everyone who was coming from Santa Fe was already driving their car to either Lamy or Albuquerque! I guess since the Shuttle Service provides "door to door" service it is more attractive for locals than I expected.
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Nathanael
Guest
OK, so Amtrak said the states would need to come up with the money by the end of 2014. New Mexico has not only said no, its legislature has adjourned until 2015. Kansas has been doing nothing, though its legislature doesn't adjourn for a while.
How much longer does Amtrak have to give before it can start talking to Amarillo and Wichita and Clovis and so forth? Given the current situation, it seems silly to wait until January 2015 to start talking to them.
This reference got me curious about that study, so I searched for, and found it on the web....http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CD4QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.coloradodot.info%2Fprojects%2Frailroadstudy%2Fdocuments%2Fexecsummary-final020609.pdf%2Fat_download%2Ffile&ei=gesGU8nqBurg0QHqmIDICg&usg=AFQjCNHZfHUxBpXcLpqA3DD6ETaBs9-HWg
Very interesting proposal and study, but you say it is basically dead?
Too bad they abandoned the old ATSF route thru Colorado Springs back when unit coal train were just really taking off in the seventies....
And this makes me think about the old original Colorado and Southern line that was abandoned way back in the early twentieth century as well.
And looking at the CDOT study, I wonder why they didn't consider a much easier and less costly third 'bypass'....simply using the existing UP Limon sub as far southeast as a point near Aroya, and then building a new line south to Las Animas as in "Study A", but without the new northern portion, would only be about 60 or so new miles to build...
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Since Amtrak has given the states until the end of 2014, they can publicly still leave the door open to allow advocates and the political leadership a last chance opportunity to work out a funding deal. Meanwhile, Amtrak should, if they have not done so already, start to plan for the re-route with quiet conversations with BNSF, scouting out possible station locations, and low key meetings with the city officials along the trans-con route.
The Southwest Chief is fortunate that there is a viable alternate faster route of well maintained tracks that go through larger population centers than the deteriorating Raton pass route. Should improve the viability and cost recovery of the SWC over time.
There is also one fringe political benefit from the alternate route which is that it goes through Oklahoma which would add it to the list of states with LD trains. Adding stations at Wichita, Amarillo, Clovis would take priority, but adding a stop, even a lightly used one, in western Oklahoma would pull that (deep red) region into the national LD train system.
After Wichita (382,000; metro 623,000), Amarillo (191,000; metro 250,000), and Clovis (37,800), what other potential stops would be best? Some possibilities would seem to include:
Wellington, KS - 8,200
Alva, OK - 5,000 - home of Northwestern Oklahoma State University
Woodward, OK - 12,100
Pampa, TX - 18,000
Canyon, TX - 13,300 - home of West Texas A&M University
Hereford, TX - 13,400
I believe those are all the municipalities along the line with populations of about 5,000 or greater.
Wellington, KS - 8,200
Alva, OK - 5,000 - home of Northwestern Oklahoma State University
Woodward, OK - 12,100
Pampa, TX - 18,000
Canyon, TX - 13,300 - home of West Texas A&M University
Hereford, TX - 13,400
I believe those are all the municipalities along the line with populations of about 5,000 or greater.
George Harris
Engineer
I know I have said it before, and I am sure others have also. Denver to Pueblo aside from being congested with freight trains is slow due to curves and grades. Much work on these curves and grades would be necessary for a passenger train to have any sort of reasonable fast schedule. A look at some of the pre-Amtrak schedules will illustrate that.
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