Greyhound seats and fleet questions

[rickycourtney]

No they couldn't. With hundreds of X3-45 buses in the fleet... they couldn't just suddenly offer 2 bags free! Every bus would have to be retired first.

I think 1 bag + 1 personal item is a good policy. It's what most airlines offer.

You're wrong about southwest. They offer 1 carry on, 1 personal item AND 2 checked bags. It's by far the most generous policy in airline industry

 

[jebr]

Two bags per person would be an advantage against competitors, everyone from Southwest Airlines, to Amtrak, to private autos, to Megabus, who's TD925 double-deckers have terrible luggage capacity.

...the only one that it would be an advantage against would be Megabus (which currently has the same policy as Greyhound for included luggage, but the only way to bring excess luggage is to buy another bag.) SWA has one personal item, one carry-on, and two checked bags at no additional charge. Amtrak has two carry-ons (which equate roughly to the size of checked luggage on the airlines,) unlimited "personal" items (small bags, laptop bag, briefcase, etc.,) and two checked bags at no additional charge. Automobiles have as much room as is in the vehicle, which is usually more than one bag (or even two bags) plus a personal item.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

True, right now Greyhound offers 1 checked bag, 1 carry-on, and 1 personal item. Most airlines offer 0 checked bags, 1 carry-on, and 1 personal item.

OK, but what if Greyhound does the BoltBus and YO! Bus trick again? This time start a new brand with H3-45's, luxury amenities, and allow 2 checked bags per person? Interesting idea. They would probably have to order Torino G because that's the best seat on the market with a "containment" seatback. Or offer something like Vonlane. That might allow Greyhound to gain a "breakout" advantage from markets that are locked in a quagmire stalemate of ruinous competition.

Edit: You got it wrong, by "bags" I meant checked baggage, not carry-ons. Only checked baggage can be stored in the cargo hold, which is the distinctive different between the H3-45 and the X3-45.

Besides, Greyhound currently allows unlimited personal items anyway, AFAIK.

 

[rickycourtney]

Right but the overhead storage bins on all buses are rather useless. They are good for stashing a personal item like a backpack or a small duffle bag. They certainly aren't big enough to accommodate a "rollaboard" suitcase that most consider a carry on.

So that means most people need to check a bag on greyhound.

 

[jebr]

Besides, Greyhound currently allows unlimited personal items anyway, AFAIK.

Not according to their website:

• One (1) piece of baggage is checked free of charge for adults and children. One (1) additional piece of baggage may be checked for a charge of $15 for adults only. Baggage carried beyond two (2) pieces will be charged based on Greyhound Package Express rates. One (1) small bag up to 25 pounds can be taken on board for each adult or child. Carry-on bags must fit in the overhead compartment or under your seat.

Compare that to Amtrak's carry-on policy (Greyhound appears to only have one policy page covering both carry-on and checked baggage, whereas Amtrak splits them up.)

Each passenger may only bring a total of 2 carry-on items onboard the train; each item should not exceed 50 lbs. (23 kg) and 28 x 22 x 14 inches.

Due to limited available space onboard trains, please make arrangements to check your baggage if your trip requires the transport of baggage in excess of two pieces or in excess of carry-on size restrictions. For passenger’s safety and security, Amtrak reserves the right to deny transport or charge fees for items exceeding policy limitations.

Personal ItemsSmall items needed for the duration of the trip may be carried on the train and will not count toward the carry-on baggage limit.

• Required medical devices and medication
• Pillows, blankets and outer garments
• Coolers, purses or small bags no larger than 12” x 12” x 12”
• Small electronic devices with protective cases

Try again.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Maybe so, but they don't enforce it anyway, as long as it doesn't block the aisle. Just like how they don't enforce the photography ban.

Yes, parcel racks on most buses are not good for anything other than a backpack, except for the MCI E/G/J series which has extra-large parcel racks that may be able to accommodate a larger bag.

I think Greyhound should try a BoltBus Deluxe now. Seems like Vonlane is doing bad, 'cause their runs tomorrow are not even a third booked yet. But BoltBus Deluxe would be different. It would use H3-45's and J4500's. It would have Torino G seating, with containment and custom-ordered seat covers, the hybrid kind with vinyl along the sides and cloth velour on the center. Seriously, custom seat covers can't be that expensive anyway. They would have something special though, personal televisions (PTV's), because we all know BoltBus tries to compete using electronic tech, now add PTV's and gain a massive advantage against everyone else except Delta. Of course it would have AVOD, in the form of Greyhound BLUE.

Then, the lavatories would have running water and flushing toilets. Would not be that expensive since Greyhound already has flushing toilets. Enclosed parcel racks. Driver call button. Remove THREE rows of seating for a ton of extra legroom. In fact, remove a fourth row at the very rear and make it into a snack bar/baggage area. On one side would be snacks, the other, non-alcoholic drinks. Under the bars, extra luggage storage, maybe with a locked cover that only the driver could open.

H and J both have massive cargo holds. Make use of them, two checked bags per person. Unlimited personal items. Probably only one carry-on but larger ones would be placed in the baggage area.

Let's see, H3-45 has 56 seating regular. Lose four rows total, down to 40 seating. Still only 20% less than the current Bolt X3-45. Would be very efficient use of space. Charge 50% extra fare over BoltBus regular, and people would still ride it. Portland to Seattle on Bolt runs $10-$15 most of the time. With this, $15-$22.5. People would flock on, and large profits could be made.

Thoughts?

 

[jebr]

Not a bad idea, but there'd be a few more considerations that make it more expensive per seat (and more complicated) than what first meets the eye.

First, I'm not sure what exactly the point of a driver call button would be, except in emergencies. The driver's focus needs to be on the road, not checking the wi-fi or AVOD system. You could hire a second person, but that would be expensive fast.

Even assuming you don't hire the second person, you'd still almost need to double the ticket price per person (if not even a tad higher) in order to cover the additional cost per customer, the nicer (and probably more expensive) buses with running water, the extra manpower and logistics to fill the water tank with water (even if it's not drinkable, but I'm not sure what health code would require,) stock the buses with snacks and drink, etc. You'd also want to make sure you're covering the cost of your food, drink, etc. you're providing.

There'd also have to be a consideration on what kind of food. Basically, you'd be looking at chips and other snacks that won't spoil if they're sitting out on a non-air-conditioned bus for a few hours (think being in the yard, laying over somewhere for a few hours with the bus off, etc.) You'd also have to source them, find a way to make sure there's enough for everyone without going broke or having people hoard the snacks, etc. Not impossible, but not necessarily quite as easy as it first appears.

Plus, with the greater price difference you differentiate the markets more, which will probably help bring in more riders who aren't as worried about the price. With this kind of service you don't want to price it too low and have people who are mainly focused on price taking seats that probably could be sold for a higher price.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I agree, except for stocking the water tank. Greyhound currently asks baggage handlers to double as cleaners and stocking the toilet fluid in the restroom. The same person could easily stock the water tank.

Greyhound should not put too many snacks in the bar so they wouldn't rot, and place them with cold refrigeration to keep cool. When the bus pulls into the yards, snacks should be transferred to a departing bus so they don't go bad.

The buses would be standard H3-45's and J4500's just made with more amenities, shouldn't be that hard to maintain.

I agree, attendants on buses are a horrible idea, goes expensive fast.

I see your point about fare structure, but BoltBus is known for low fares and this would be more like true Premium Economy on flights, rather than Business or First which is more like Vonlane or LimoLiner.

 

[rickycourtney]

My point is... if Greyhound's underfloor storage bays are filling up with bags... than it's their own doing. They have a one checked bag rule, they need to enforce it.

That being said... I think that the H3-45 would be a great choice for Greyhound Canada. Having the bigger under bus bins means more room for GPX packages. That is if Greyhound Canada ever gets new buses again and not just hand me downs from the US.

Greyhound may have "flush" toilets right now but it's at best a novelty. It recirculates the "blue water" and there's no flap so you still get all the smells, defeating the purpose of the flush function.

 

[rickycourtney]

I think you're rushing to judgement on Vonlane. They are a very new operation.

Here's my thoughts on a "BoltBus Deluxe" service:
* The Torino G is the wrong seat for this. As a matter of fact, any 2+2 seating arrangement is wrong for a deluxe service. I would do 2+1 seating and would equip the seats with airline-style tray tables so passengers can comfortably use their laptops. If you remove 4 rows you should be able to get 30 people on.

* Nice restrooms are a must. I would like to see a "residential style" RV toilet and a large sink.

* I'm really split on the concept of an attendant. I think having one ensures that your customers receive a "premium" experience (plus they give you a reason to have those call buttons) but they do add a lot of expense to every trip.

* When it comes to offering an "amenities station" I would install a Keurig brewer (offer coffee, tea and hot chocolate) and a mini fridge (offer sodas, juices and water bottles). If there's an attendant I would offer a light meal at the seat (bagel/fruit in the morning, a sandwich at lunch/dinner). If there's no attendant leave a basket with snacks appropriate to the time of day.

* PTV's are one of those things that sound good on paper, but end up being a pain in the ass in the long run. The individual TV's are expensive and if one goes out of service you need to take the whole bus out of service to repair it. I think VOD is the answer and for passengers who don't have a device you can offer to let them borrow an iPad during the trip.

* You can't pick up passengers on a street corner and you can't pick passengers up at a Greyhound station (no matter how nice you make it). I really like Vonlane's solution of partnering with hotels. That gives passengers a nice place to wait, grab a drink or a full meal, a place to park their car and a place where a cab will likely be waiting.

But if you want to offer a "premium coach" service here's what I would do... remove the first 14 seats and replace them with 9 seats in a 2+1 arrangement, install a bulkhead/aisle curtain and place a small "amenities station" one side of the aisle (an airpot with coffee, a basket with bags of snacks and a mini-fridge below). I'd also upgrade the restroom and place it midship between the two sections. You should get about 32 "coach" seats and 9 "premium coach" seats... a loss of 18% of the seats. But you could charge 25-40% more for the "premium coach" seats.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

No no no, 2-1 seating is a big NO-NO for profitable bus ops. Can increase legroom, but NO 2-1 seating, must have 2-2 or else it wouldn't be BoltBus. 2-1 would require at least twice the fare to make a profit. An attendant would require thrice the fare to make a profit.

I'm not suggesting luxury buses here. I'm suggesting you pay a bit more to get a bit more. Not pay a lot more and get a lot more. This is still Greyhound, this is NOT Vonlane or LimoLiner.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Obviously, Swadian, you made a mistake. If a bus has 2-2 seating with 48 seats (12 rows) and needs to make $960 in revenue to make a profit, it must charge $20 per seat to make a profit. If it has 2-1 seating, it sits 36, and must charge $26.67 to make the same revenue. That is a price increase of 33.3%, a third.

 

[rickycourtney]

For comfort reasons I disagree. I'll tolerate being shoulder to shoulder on BoltBus because it's cheap. But if I'm paying a premium price I want some breathing room. Also when I'm traveling solo I'd prefer to sit by myself. I'd pay 33% more for that.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Here's the problem, you all know what airline Business Class started out as, right? They started out as "a step above" regular Economy. Then they morphed into flat bed seats and, in some cases, even replaced First Class. I'm talking about international flights here.

So, you put 2-1 seating in a bus, you will have to increase the legroom and the seat width to accommodate larger seats. You would be making a luxury bus service. It's not just 48 seats going to 36 seats. Think this way: you have a H3-45 standard at 56 seats. Take out four rows first to create extra legroom. Drop down to 40 seats. Then make 2-1 seating, drop down to 30 seats. Standard BoltBus is 50 seats. Add the other various costs of a luxury operation, as said by JebR, and you'll be charging double fare over standard Bolt. Add an attendant, triple fare. An attendant would be almost useless anyway, and I do say almost, but seriously, what is he going to do? Food service? Yeah, quadruple fare for the galley and food, you'll be making Vonlane fast and doing the same thing airlines did to Business Class.

My suggestion for BoltBus Deluxe would not be a luxury bus service. It would "a step above" regular BoltBus. Any bus with 2-1 seating is not "a step above" the average bus on the road. Technically BoltBus already is a step above because they out one row of seating. But many people still say it's not enough. So this would be to appease those people, and extra legroom would do that. Extra seat width would not do that, because you can simply have 2-2 seating and allow a passenger to reserve double seating at double fare. That way larger and smaller passengers could differentiate themselves.

For me, 2-1 seating we be a big huge waste because 2-2 is more than enough for me, though perhaps I am just too skinny, but again, the average American should fit perfectly in Torino G. Want more room? Buy double tickets. Better idea than ostracizing the smaller passengers that don't need the room and don't want to pay extra.

Good thing about Torino G, the seats have only a tiny gap between them, so two would merge to form one seat: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5uaoqsl4s02k2ui/AABVK8_021XshoQ3gHTqqs67a/10010-3986.jpg.

And GML, you are the one that said you loved that blue interior with Torino G.

Edit: Now that double seating at double fare would double fare over a single BoltBus Deluxe. As I said, Greyhound could charge 1.5 times regular Bolt fare, double of that would be 3 times regular Bolt fare, yes, quite a bit extra, but you want it, you pay for it, and you get it.

 

[railiner]

Interesting discussion. A good example of an upgraded service, is that of C&J which basically runs from Portsmouth, NH, to Boston Logan Airport. They have found themselves a niche route, from Portsmouth to New York City, with a stop at Shrewsbury, Ma....They use H3-45's with WiFi, 30 seats, arranged 2&1, and a complimentary self-serve snack bar, which has a K-Cup brewer, a minifridge with soft drinks and bottled water, and a basket of various snacks. They provide a fast thru service, that no one else provides, so they do not directly complete with the other buslines. Rather, they target airlines and motorists....

I worked long enough to remember the extensive network of "Five-Star Luxury Service", that various Trailways carrier's provided, as well as Greyhound's "Bus-Plus Service". Having to provide the staffing (the hostesses), turned out to be a real "PITA" for the dispatcher's back then. And if they couldn't fill one, they had to have an agent at the gate to refund the surcharges to the disappointed passenger's. On some occasion's, they coaxed an extraboard operatior to fulfill that position, with merciless razzing by their coworkers, as you may imagine. Of course, the driver was paid as if driving, so he earned a lot more than the hostesses would have....

***

Today, Greyhound schedule 0306, had to depart with empty seats, as the baggage bays were jammed full, and no more passenger's could board, unless they could carry what they had aboard. This happens this time of year, with the new freshmen going to Syracuse (and other colleges), with everything including the kitchen sink, microwaves, tons of books, clothes, etc. At least the new flat screen TV's don't take as much space as the old TV's did....

Our problem is that we are isolated from the North Wing, where the baggage and express room are located, so it is very difficult to have excess baggage weighed, billed, and charged, or sent as GPX.

Regular GPX is left behind, until the coaches finally have some extra room available.

The X3 and the DL-3, lift equipped, just can't handle it.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

College students on Greyhound? Unbelievable in the West. Wow.

Where does 306 go? Could not find it on the 170, the NYD-TOR timetable. What type of bus was it? Yeah, if a X3-45 can't handle it, then I guess a D4505 and 102DL3 couldn't handle it either.

Only the G4500 might handle it, with a lift-equipped cargo hold of 440 cubic feet. The EL3 actually has the most luggage capacity ever, 445 cubic feet cargo hold, 150 overhead, for 595 total and is unaffected by the rear-mounted lift. No wonder Greyhound Canada ordered the EL3 in 1998. Technically the G4500 would have a bit more if it was designed with a rear lift instead of a center lift. H3-45 comes close but has very small overhead parcel racks.

This is why Greyhound might have need for the H3-45 and J4500 instead of losing revenue. Yeah, they could force GPX weighing correctly, but the extra charge isn't going to deter passengers leaving the TV and sink behind. And losing on regular GPX.

 

[rickycourtney]

Here are my two questions for you John:

Who would your "BoltBus Deluxe" be aimed at? Customers on business trips or leisure travelers who don't want to drive or pay to fly?

-and-

Do you want to create a "premium economy" experience or a "deluxe" experience (like you said)?

Arguably BoltBus already *is* a premium economy bus service (the problems is that line has become blurred now that Greyhound upgraded the rest of the fleet to the same spec).

If you want to create a true "deluxe" service that appeals to choice customers (like those on business trips)... It needs to be a demonstrably better. I think that the best way to do that is with 2-1 seating. It will create a product that is visibly better from the moment you step on board.

Frankly I wouldn't pay more to get an extra couple inches of legroom, a soda and a bag of chips. I can bring my own snacks and considering the bargain prices BoltBus charges I'll suck up the legroom part for a 3.5 hour non stop trip.

I would however pay extra to have a bigger seat like this:

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Maybe I should've called it "BoltBus Plus". That's Premium Economy, not Business Class. This is what I'm thinking:

A guy goes on Bolt looking to buy tickets. He finds low fares but finds an ad stating "Get PTV's, even more legroom, luggage allowance, snacks, and drinks for only $x extra!" Some of those passengers would do it, enough to fill a whole 40 seats per H3-45/J4500.

You want a bigger seat, then just buy two, Bolt could offer that easily. Perhaps 75% more instead of 100% more, so not double baggage allowance. Two Amaya Torino G is better than one Amaya 2-1 anyway, because you get so much more width.

Perhaps not great in the PNW, but SFD-LAD could use it. Yes, you take out three rows of seats, that would make a big increase in legroom. Even a 6'6" guy could be comfortable in that.

If Bolt is successful, then Greyhound could do Greyhound Plus on the LAD-VAN route, as LAD-SAC could use it due to varied passengers, SAC-PUT is packed to the gills and has more middle class pax than the average Greyhound (booking online), PUT-VAN could use it to improve the reputation damage left by the G4500's.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

I'm not arguing your perspective that a 2-1 is bad. I honestly don't know or care. I argue your math. I have sat on standard seat Greyhounds. They are set up, iirc, at 48 seats. Knock it down to 36 on a 2-1, and the amount you need to increase revenue per passenger to compensate is 1/3. That's not an opinion, that's mathematical fact.

Speaking as a man who is not tall (5'11") but quite wide (375 lbs, 60" waist) a cut above means a wider seat. The extra legroom is meaningless to me, I'm short.

You say your a fairly small guy, John. I understand why the extra width doesn't matter much to you. It does to me.

Luxury means different things to different people. In 1982 you could buy, for the same price, either a Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham Delegence or a Mercedes-Benz 240D. The Cadillac came with leather, velour, chrome, wood trim, pillow top seats, power everything, body on frame construction, a antique 350 small block Chevy engine, a live axle, and drum brakes. The Mercedes at that price had vinyl seats, manual everything including mirrors and windows, vinyl seats, no air conditioning, a sophisticated semi-trailing arm rear suspension, a Diesel engine, the safest body structure on the market save Mercedes own S-class, and the only four channel braking system in the industry at the time (save the S-class).

In one you paid for palatial plushness, in the other unsurpassed engineering integrity, safety, and durability (or, if you like, long term peace of mind). Which you choose is purely personal preference.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Don't you understand the double seat option? Offer a passenger to buy a double seat for 75% more. That would fix your hunger for width. You say you are not tall and do not need much legroom. OK, then Greyhound should offer the double-seat option on all buses right now without even thinking about BoltBus Plus and Greyhound Plus.

By the way, they have nothing at 48 seats in the regular fleet, the MC-12 was 47 seats and a 40-footer, now retired, and with the 102D3 which is for sale, the rest all have 50 or 51 seats, and are 45-footers.

 

[rickycourtney]

Offering two seats are not the same as offering a 2-1 seat.

To take advantage of the second seat, you'd need to fold up the center armrest (which would preclude you from reclining) and any good seat is curved, meaning it's totally uncomfortable to straddle two seats. Also, Amtrak has thought about selling toe seats. It's a bad idea. When a bus is totally full and passengers are being left at the curb, it creates resentment that a seat is being left open.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Why would passenger be left on the curb if everyone had reserved seating?

And guess who's seats aren't curved? Amtrak seats and Greyhound's new Premier LS.

Anyways, booking two seats would still give you much more room but with a curved seat you would have to center yourself on one seat and utilize the extra space of the other seat to accommodate a large parson's increased size. I can't say anything because the Patriot PT fits me perfectly and the Torino G would also fir me perfectly since they have very similar diagrams. I'm just not that big of a guy.

 

[railiner]

We had a rare visit at The Port on Monday by GLC 1333. I don't know what trip it came down on, but they sent it up to Montreal on trip 4034. That coach used to come down regularly on the pool from Toronto. It is painted white, and still has 55 seats.....I believe they sent it to Toronto by error..

 

[rickycourtney]

What was so revolutainary about BoltBus was that it offered a "premium coach" experience (leather seats, more legroom, power outlets, free WiFi) on non-stop routes, often with prices lower than Greyhound.

I don't oppose BoltBus returning to being an "upgrade" to Greyhound... but I just don't see the companies core customers being the type who will pay extra for PTV's, more legroom, an additional piece of luggage, snacks, and drinks.

The core customer is thrifty and tech savvy. They are likely to have a smartphone and an tablet (and not need a PTV), are traveling for leisure (with the ability to pack light) and smart enough to stash a soda and a snack in their backpack before heading to the bus stop. I know this customer well... because I am that customer. That perfectly describes every trip I've taken on BoltBus.

That being said, I think Vonlane and Limoliner are on to something. There is a mostly untapped market for a luxury bus line that can appeal to business customers and a customer who has more disposable income... while offering a service that competes with the airlines with travel time downtown to downtown.

 

[railiner]

College students on Greyhound? Unbelievable in the West. Wow.

Where does 306 go? Could not find it on the 170, the NYD-TOR timetable. What type of bus was it? Yeah, if a X3-45 can't handle it, then I guess a D4505 and 102DL3 couldn't handle it either.

Only the G4500 might handle it, with a lift-equipped cargo hold of 440 cubic feet. The EL3 actually has the most luggage capacity ever, 445 cubic feet cargo hold, 150 overhead, for 595 total and is unaffected by the rear-mounted lift. No wonder Greyhound Canada ordered the EL3 in 1998. Technically the G4500 would have a bit more if it was designed with a rear lift instead of a center lift. H3-45 comes close but has very small overhead parcel racks.

This is why Greyhound might have need for the H3-45 and J4500 instead of losing revenue. Yeah, they could force GPX weighing correctly, but the extra charge isn't going to deter passengers leaving the TV and sink behind. And losing on regular GPX.

Sorry, I meant trip 4270....Leaves NYC at 0715 to Binghamton, Syracuse, Rochester , and Buffalo....in the off-season, it becomes trip 306, same schedule, but thru to Toronto, instead of trip 308, which is a summer run....