Trying to Improve Amtrak Schedules in Ohio

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Actually annual revenue of the railroad, so yeah, in some sense size. They actually keep adjusting the revenue thresholds to make sure that the railroads that they want to be Class 2 remain Class 2 and do not inadvertently become Class 1 or Class 3!
 
Yep. Crescent and Regionals go on the wider NS track to Lynchburg and the Cardinal goes on the eastern track on the BBRR, then crosses over the NS at CVS amtrak to go to Clifton Forge VA. Unfortunately, there's no connecting track between the NS and BBRR at Charlottesville.
 
maxbuskirk said:
Yep. Crescent and Regionals go on the wider NS track to Lynchburg and the Cardinal goes on the eastern track on the BBRR, then crosses over the NS at CVS amtrak to go to Clifton Forge VA. Unfortunately, there's no connecting track between the NS and BBRR at Charlottesville.
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There is, but in the wrong quadrant. This has been discussed to death a couple of times before in AU. An appropriate search might yield the old threads for those sufficiently interested to dig them out. I am not.
 
Well you could back into the connecting track then NS the rest of the way to WAS.

I don't know how helpful that would be to Amtrak, though.
 
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The connecting track in the SE quadrant has several problems. Not having been there in years the connection goes into a small 3 track yard. It enters the southern most BBrRR yard track and last time there Cardinal would have to back over 1 mile to reach the northernmost main line going toward the west.

The worse problem though is all these yard tracks including the connecting track is excepted track . That is unable to allow passenger carrying trains.

Of course that may have changed.
 
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Wow . . . well, I guess Amtrak can't do that, then!

Everyone, any criticism for the Mountain State please?

Here are the sidings usable between Clifton Forge VA and Orange VA:

CardinalSidings3.png
 
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Doesn't one of the Vermont trains run on a shortline as well I want to say Vermont Rail System. As far as the Cardinal I could see it going daily one day especially with coal traffic declining like it is. But I still think the best way to serve CIN would be the Ohio State Limited. Day train for the CLE-CIN segments and night for the Empire Corridor.
 
If coal traffic declines so much that Amtrak can reschedule the Cardinal back to the 1970s and 1980s schedules, then that would be great. OSL would still work bunches better though.

The CHI-IND-CIN-NYP "Buckeye State" should still go by Pittsburgh and Philadelphia.
 
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You would think it would be easier to serve CIN but it really isn't. These are "possible" routes from CIN to NYP.

Current Cardinal route:

CIN to WAS (603 miles) - 3:27am 6:19pm 14 hr, 52 min
WAS to PHL (134 miles) - 6:19pm 8:26pm 2 hr, 7 min
PHL to NYP (91 miles) - 8:26pm 9:58pm 1 hr, 32 min

Total: 828 miles - 3:27am 9:58pm 18 hr, 31 min

Using AAO's proposed schedules: http://freepdfhosting.com/cf26514bc8.pdffor routes that aren't currently run,

To NYP via PGH/PHL (Pennsylvanian times):

CIN to COL (125 miles) - 5:05pm 8:05pm 3 hr
COL to PGH (218 miles) - 11:40pm 5:30am 5 hr, 50 min
PGH to PHL (353 miles) - 7:30am 2:55pm 7 hr, 25 min
PHL to NYP (91 miles) - 3:25pm 4:50pm 1 hr, 25 min

Total without breaks (787 miles): 17 hr, 40 min

AAO scheduled a 5 min gap for its northbound CIN-CLE path via Columbus. They proposed CHI-Columbus-PGH via Ft. Wayne. The gap in Columbus is 10 min. The eastbound CL has a 15 min gap at PGH. Adding those you get 30 extra min via PGH/PHL (the gaps in HAR and PHL are already included in the Pennsylvanian schedule).



Rough estimate of total time: 18 hr, 10 min

To NYP via CLE/BUF/ALB (LSL times):

CIN to CLE (260 miles) 5:05pm 10:50pm 5 hr, 45 min
CLE to NYP (618 miles) 5:50am 6:23pm 12 hr, 33 min

Total without breaks (878 miles) 18 hr, 8 min

AAO's proposal CIN-NYP via CLE/BUF with breaks: 5:05pm 12:27pm 19 hr, 22 min (5 min gap in Columbus, 1 hr, 9 min layover in CLE due to proposed connection with LSL)

In terms of mileage, going through the Keystone route is the shortest (787 mi) with going through WV/VA second (828 mi) and via the Empire route (878 mi) the longest. In terms of time, the differences are less than an hour apart so negligible for a roughly 18-19 hr trip.

Add in CHI to CIN (319 miles): 5:45pm 3:17am 9 hr, 32 min (9 min gap in Indianapolis) and the trip is about 28 hrs CHI to NYP no matter which route you choose. By contrast, CHI-WAS via CL is 780 miles, 6:40pm to 1:05pm (17:25) while CHI-NYP via BUF/ALB is 959 miles, 9:30pm-6:23pm (19:53). CHI to CLE via the LSL is 341 miles, 9:30pm-5:35am (7:05 including a 30 min gap in TOL).

AAO's CHI-PGH via Columbus: 519 miles, 4:55pm to 5:30am (11:35). Add the Pennsylvanian times PGH-NYP (444 mi, 8:50) and you get without a break in PGH 963 mi (20:25). Add 15 min to PGH and it's 20:40.

CL CHI-PGH via CLE: 481 miles, 6:40pm to 5:05am (9:25). Add the Pennsylvanian times PGH-NYP (444 mi, 8:50) and you get without a break in PGH 925 mi (18:15). Add 15 min to PGH and it's 18:45.

Ironically going through CIN-PGH-PHL-COL would be the shortest distance (787 miles) but the longest time by about eight hours over via COL despite being 152 miles shorter.

So it's hard to serve CIN on a CHI-NEC train.
 
CHI 745A

IND 150P/159P

CIN 517P/545P

COL 845P/855P

PGH 245A/300A

HAR 825A/835A

PHL 1025A/1055A

NYP 1220P

NYP 722P

PHL 845P/912P

HAR 1056P/1106P

PGH 435A/450A

COL 1040A/1050A

CIN 150P/211P

IND 545P/555P

CHI 1000P

Did they test that COL to PGH is actually 5 hrs 50 minutes? Nat'l Limited did it in less time, I think

Edit: Yes, the National Limited did it in 4 hrs 50 minutes in 1979, but if track conditions are worse (probably so), then it would take longer.
 
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maxbuskirk said:
CHI 815A

...

NYP 1250P

NYP 807P

...

CHI 1100P

Did they test that COL to PGH is actually 5 hrs 50 minutes? Nat'l Limited did it in less time, I think.
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I know these are imaginary schedules, but your CHI times completely prevent any connections to other Amtrak trains. Not just the western LD trains, but also the Chicago hub corridor services. If someone lives in Springfield, IL, how are they supposed to connect to your train with a 8:15 AM departure? 8:15 AM doesn't even work for the Hiawatha which has the 1st CHI arrival at 7:57 AM. Got to have at least a 60 to 90 minute pad for a connection. There is a reason the LD trains depart CHI in the afternoon and evening.

The 11 PM arrival doesn't allow for connections to anything besides the Chicago L unless there are very late Metra trains departing Union Station after 11:30 PM or midnight. Of course, as an LD train, arriving at CHI 2 or 3 hours late will occur often enough for people to be arriving in the wee hours of the night.
 
My only concern on the ex PRR line Columbus-PIT is that it's a regional railroad so I'm not sure on how the track is. I'm still advocating for the three c and Empire route. The Empire Route could easily support the second long distance train. And the Three C route gets one train already from the national network. Then Ohio only needs to put one train in to have a two train a day corridor. Maybe a third so only two trainsets. While the national network is also two trainsets.
 
maxbuskirk said:
Did they test that COL to PGH is actually 5 hrs 50 minutes? Nat'l Limited did it in less time, I think

Edit: Yes, the National Limited did it in 4 hrs 50 minutes in 1979, but if track conditions are worse (probably so), then it would take longer.
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Back then it was running on an allegedly first class railroad. Now it will be running on a set of tracks that are patched together by short lines. Part of the original route simply does not exist anymore. So I will be surprised if 5:50 is not too optimistic in reality today.
 
Well, if you want connections at Chicago (which is a very good thing to do), Indianapolis will have to be sacrificed and put in overnight. There's no other way I know of doing this, while still serving Cincinnati
 
maxbuskirk said:
CHI 745A

IND 150P/159P

CIN 517P/545P

COL 845P/855P

PGH 245A/300A

HAR 825A/835A

PHL 1025A/1055A

NYP 1220P

NYP 722P

PHL 845P/912P

HAR 1056P/1106P

PGH 435A/450A

COL 1040A/1050A

CIN 150P/211P

IND 545P/555P

CHI 1000P

Did they test that COL to PGH is actually 5 hrs 50 minutes? Nat'l Limited did it in less time, I think

Edit: Yes, the National Limited did it in 4 hrs 50 minutes in 1979, but if track conditions are worse (probably so), then it would take longer.
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How about a 3 hr shift back for the eastbound (CHI 10:45am, NYP 3:20pm) and a 5 hr shift forward for the westbound (NYP 2:22pm, CHI 5:00pm)? That will allow for at least some connectivity in CHI and make the PGH times much better (5:45P/6:00A east and 11:35P/11:40P west). Columbus would get close to graveyard shift times as well (11:45P/11:55P east and 5:40A/5:50A west). The CIN times would be 8:17P/8:45P east and 8:50A/9:11A west). Of course this requires a fourth set instead of just three but I agree the early departure/late arrival times out of CHI would be horrible for transfer business.

My idea of graveyard shift between PGH and PHL won't work for this train since to arrive in PGH before midnight the train would have to leave CHI at 4:45am and that won't happen. When I did the schedule to be similar to the Cardinal, leaving CHI at 6:45pm got the train into NYP at 10:58pm so leaving any later from CHI would put the train into NYP in the graveyard shift. With a run time approximately as long as the current Cardinal, you don't have many realistic options.

Of course you'd also need decent tracks between Columbus and PGH and if they require short lines it won't be any better situation than Buckingham Branch.
 
Seaboard92 said:
My only concern on the ex PRR line Columbus-PIT is that it's a regional railroad so I'm not sure on how the track is. I'm still advocating for the three c and Empire route. The Empire Route could easily support the second long distance train. And the Three C route gets one train already from the national network. Then Ohio only needs to put one train in to have a two train a day corridor. Maybe a third so only two trainsets. While the national network is also two trainsets.
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Seaboard92, way back near the beginning of this thread, I proposed a two new train proposal: one CHI-NYP via Michigan and the Keystone route which served TOL and CLE at non graveyard shift hours and traveled between PGH and PHL during the graveyard shift and one CIN-NYP via 3-C. A passenger from south of CLE could go right through to/from NYP via the Empire route or transfer in CLE to the other new train if they wanted to go to PGH/PHL. I had another proposal where the new train took over the CL's slot and the CL was the train that served Ohio but I have many doubts about that scenario. The second train (OSL) would not serve CHI and IND, it would terminate in CIN.

One idea I also thought of was to extend the train south to Louisville and Nashville (call it the Music City Limited?). With my current schedules, the train would arrive in CIN at 6pm and leave CIN at 2pm. The trains would then not reach Nashville until the middle of the night and have to leave in the graveyard shift to serve CIN by 2pm.

I had a runtime eastbound of 19:27 so a NYP-Nashville train via 3-C would easily be over 24 hours. Can you see a realistic schedule for this train to prevent Nashville, Louisville, or any of the 3C cities from being in the graveyard shift (upstate NY in the graveyard shift is fine)? Assume no transfers to any other trains.
 
Should the train go the LSL route or the Keystone route? As in go up to Cleveland then south to PGH or LSL?
 
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What i was thinking. . . the train could depart Chicago really really late (like midnight) and get into NYP really early in the morning, so i was asking how late the train could depart Chicago and still be realistic.

Indianapolis would be overnight, but connectivity in Chicago would be *great*
 
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350 Buckeye State 351 Buckeye State

CHI 1145P 600A
IND 550A/615A 110A/155A
CIN 943A/1015A 905P/936P
COL 115P/130P 550P/605P
CLE 430P/500P 220P/250P
BUF 850P/915P 1005A/1035A
ALB 300A 420A

Thru cars 450 Buckeye State Thru cars 451 Buckeye State

(ALB 330A) (ALB 350A)

(BOS 830A) (BOS 1050P)

Thru cars 350 Buckeye State Thru cars 351 Buckeye State

ALB 345A ALB 250A
NYP 615A NYP 1150P

By extending break times at major stations.

950 Ohio River 951 Ohio River

CIN 1027A 901P

HUN 209P 521P

50 Cardinal 51 Cardinal

HUN 746A 1014P

CVS 340/349P 213P/222P

WAS 649P 1130A

NYP 1028P 715A

How about these? Ohio River and Cardinal schedules matter less than the Buckeye State, I just put them there to keep some kind of service on the map :)
 
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maxbuskirk said:
Here are the sidings usable between Clifton Forge VA and Orange VA:
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Hmm. So, without knowing the actual scheduling, this would be my guess at infrastructure priorities:

(1) Powered, dispatcher-controlled sidings if any are hand thrown

(2) Connection at Charlottesville so that the Cardinal can use the NS line east of there (also makes train faster)

(3) Siding halfway between Clifton Forge and the first siding east of there

(4) Siding halfway between Staunton and the next siding west of there

I'm suspicious that Buckingham Branch might not actually be the bottleneck on the route, however.
 

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