Trying to Improve Amtrak Schedules in Ohio

[FormerOBS]

The PRR's Penn Texas, numbers 3 westbound and 4 eastbound, ran between New York and St. Louis, and carried through sleeping cars to and from points in the Southwest. It was the successor to the earlier Sunshine Special, and began operating under the Texas Eagle name July 7, 1946. From July 7, 1946 until April 25, 1948 the Texas Eagle ran through from New York to Dallas, with through sleepers that continued via connections via trains to (at various times) Oklahoma City, Mexico City, Houston, El Paso, and San Antonio. As of April 25, 1948, the operation was changed so that the PRR operated the train between New York and St. Louis, with the cars being forwarded west of St. Louis on other carriers.

On December 12, 1948, the name of the PRR train was changed to The Penn Texas. Specifically, most sleepers went via Missouri Pacific and Texas & Pacific on the Texas Eagle. One through Houston car actually came out of Washington. One car was operated to Dallas, Fort Worth, and San Antonio on the joint Texas Special, operated by the St. Louis - San Francisco (Frisco) and Missouri - Kansas - Texas (Katy). The Penn Texas must have been quite a sight, with its mixture of Tuscan Red cars from the PRR, blue and cream cars from the MoPac/T&P, and bright red and stainless cars from the Texas Special. Over the years, service reductions meant the elimination of these various through sleeper services. The Texas Special car was dropped in 1958, and the last of the MoPac/T&P cars on the Texas routes were discontinued in 1961. Even though the through sleepers were discontinued in 1961, the train continued to operate over the PRR (later PC) with The Penn Texas name between New York and St. Louis until June, 1970.

NYC had through cars from New York, and B&O had through service from Washington to Texas points, but not as many through cars as the PRR.

For the most part, sleepers in this service included 10 roomette 5 bedroom cars (10-5), 10 roomette 6 bedroom cars (10-6), and 14 roomette 4 bedroom cars (14-4).

 

[jphjaxfl]

The PRR's Penn Texas, numbers 3 westbound and 4 eastbound, ran between New York and St. Louis, and carried through sleeping cars to and from points in the Southwest. It was the successor to the earlier Sunshine Special, and began operating under the Texas Eagle name July 7, 1946. From July 7, 1946 until April 25, 1948 the Texas Eagle ran through from New York to Dallas, with through sleepers that continued via connections via trains to (at various times) Oklahoma City, Mexico City, Houston, El Paso, and San Antonio. As of April 25, 1948, the operation was changed so that the PRR operated the train between New York and St. Louis, with the cars being forwarded west of St. Louis on other carriers.

On December 12, 1948, the name of the PRR train was changed to The Penn Texas. Specifically, most sleepers went via Missouri Pacific and Texas & Pacific on the Texas Eagle. One through Houston car actually came out of Washington. One car was operated to Dallas, Fort Worth, and San Antonio on the joint Texas Special, operated by the St. Louis - San Francisco (Frisco) and Missouri - Kansas - Texas (Katy). The Penn Texas must have been quite a sight, with its mixture of Tuscan Red cars from the PRR, blue and cream cars from the MoPac/T&P, and bright red and stainless cars from the Texas Special. Over the years, service reductions meant the elimination of these various through sleeper services. The Texas Special car was dropped in 1958, and the last of the MoPac/T&P cars on the Texas routes were discontinued in 1961. Even though the through sleepers were discontinued in 1961, the train continued to operate over the PRR (later PC) with The Penn Texas name between New York and St. Louis until June, 1970.

NYC had through cars from New York, and B&O had through service from Washington to Texas points, but not as many through cars as the PRR.

For the most part, sleepers in this service included 10 roomette 5 bedroom cars (10-5), 10 roomette 6 bedroom cars (10-6), and 14 roomette 4 bedroom cars (14-4).

The through B&O Slumbercoach from Baltimore to Fort Worth via the National Limited and Texas Eagle lasted until 1963-1964. It was the only Slumbercoach that operated on the MoPac and it a special stainless steel car that may have been built for the route. I rode the MoPac trains between Little Rock and and St. Louis a lot during the early 60s as a teenager when I was growing up in Hot Springs, AR and remember seeing the Slumbercoach in the Eagle Consist.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

The old Penn Central schedules could be a nice model of "improved Ohio schedules".

By 1968, 3-C was pretty dead and really was two separate trains. It was convenient to go from either Cleveland or Cincinnati to Columbus but not from Cleveland to Cincinnati.

The James Whitcomb Riley between Chicago-Indianapolis-Cincinnati had a good schedule (morning westbound and evening eastbound). It was nothing like today's Indy-Cincy train.

There was also a Cincinnati Limited both directions from Cincy to Columbus, Pittsburgh, Philly (North Philly), and New York. It looks like westbound it was the same train as the Spirit of St. Louis and eastbound the same train as the Penn Texas, both trains between St. Louis and Philly/New York. The times for the Cincinnati branches were eastbound 3:25pm to 8:15am in New York with return times 4:05pm in New York to 8:50am in Cincinnati.

Columbus was served east/west by both the Penn Texas and the Spirit of St. Louis which were pretty close to each other in schedule.

As for Cleveland it looks like they had the 64 eastbound from Chicago to New York via Cleveland and Buffalo, leaving the Windy City at 8:30am and arriving in the Big Apple (Grand Central) the next morning at 7:10am and the 63 westbound leaving New York at 10:30pm and arriving in Chicago at 6:50pm. Upstate New York (Syracuse and Albany) were stuck in the graveyard shift both ways with the 63 hitting Buffalo at 8:25am and the 64 stopping there at 9:20pm, allowing for overnight service between New York and Buffalo both ways. There is also a 71 from New York to Buffalo and a 51 from Buffalo to Chicago (I assume a transfer in Buffalo is required) and 98 from Chicago to Buffalo and 74 from Buffalo to New York (none of these trains had names listed).


I'm not sure I miss direct trains from the NEC to St. Louis. It does give you a transfer in St. Louis as opposed to Chicago but if you have a train from Chicago to Texas there is almost no difference in time going via Chicago vs. going via St. Louis and you'd probably spend more time waiting in St. Louis. The old National Limited went to Kansas City where it allowed a transfer to the Southwest Limited/Chief but it doesn't save you much time going to the west coast and I also don't really have much interest in going direct to Kansas City either.

But they could always have rerouted the Spirit of St. Louis/Penn Texas (obviously changing the names) from Indy to St. Louis to Indy to Chicago using the James Whitcomb Riley train. Or to serve Columbus and Cincinnati do the Cincinnati Limited and then the James Whitcomb Riley from Cincinnati to Chicago (the line would be identical but detouring to serve Cincinnati). Either route would serve Indy and Columbus as well as Pittsburgh/Philadelphia (30th St. as opposed to North Philly). Losing Columbus was IMHO a big loss to Amtrak. Columbus's population was much higher today than it was in the 70's/80's. And Cincinnati had it much better back then than today.

From 1968, I would probably use the Cincinnati Limited-James Whitcomb Riley to get both Columbus and Cincinnati along with one of the Broadway Limited/Pennsylvania Limited/Manhattan Limited and the 63/64 (predecessor to LSL). Yes, Pittsburgh to Philly gets two trains but I'd send one to New Jersey/New York and one to Baltimore/Washington. All three major Ohio cities would get a Chicago-East Coast train (Columbus and Cincinnati's get the same one). I'd probably schedule the Cincinnati Limited to New York and the Broadway to Baltimore/DC. Then you can schedule the Cincinnati/Columbus train to not be a western transfer train and serve Cincinnati and Columbus outside the graveyard shift (New York can take the LSL and Philly/Pittsburgh can take the BL to transfer west in Chicago). Assuming only one upstate New York train Cleveland looks like it would be stuck in the graveyard shift. But two out of three Ohio cities (Cincinnati and Columbus) outside the graveyard shift isn't bad.

Yes things were much better for Ohio before A-Day.

Columbus was served east/west by both the Penn Texas and the Spirit of St. Louis which were pretty close to each other in schedule.

 

[west point]

To solve many of the state supported problems why not do this ?

1. 1st get enough additional equipment built. That may be a difficult effort.

2. Initiate a new Florida train Detroit - Toledo - Columbus - Cincinnati ( route to be determined ) - Atlanta ( either and/ or by Knoxville, Chattanooga ) - JAX - MIA.

3. For time being provide some kind of connection from Cleveland - Toledo.

4. This probably will leave Akron out in cold but something better than nothing.

5. This train would probably leave Detroit & Cincinnati at dusk so it still does not solve problem of daytime services

6. Still needs the Howell Interlocking and ATL station problems solved.

 

[Seaboard92]

Well one reason so many trains went to St Louis in the streamliner era was because it really was the secondary hub. And the reason the Penn Central schedules weren't timed well for CIN-CLE travel is because they were aggressively trying to get rid of trains system wide.

And I am afraid we can't return the ex PRR or EX NYC routes from CIN-CHI because they are either severely downgraded or abandoned. And if you look at the route of the Cardinal in the Amtrak era you can see the route was moved multiple times due to poor Penn Central track conditions.

And there are more options other then the three C route ex NYC in Ohio that would be good for expansion of service. The ex B&O from CIN to DET via TOL would be a good candidate. The B&O had a fairly large footprint in Ohio.

The largest railroad in Ohio passenger service historically.

1. New York Central

2. Pennsylvania Railroad

3. Baltimore&Ohio

4. Nickel Plate Road

5. Erie

 

[FormerOBS]

Seaboard 92:

You could add N&W and C&O to your list, plus one or two more, such as Wabash. But you are right. You've named the most important ones, and the order of importance is probably about right.

 

[Seaboard92]

Seaboard 92:

You could add N&W and C&O to your list, plus one or two more, such as Wabash. But you are right. You've named the most important ones, and the order of importance is probably about right.

I left those two out just because they really only went to Cincinnati and the. Into Kentucky and West Virginia. I mean eventually via merger the N&W took over the Nickel Plate Road and Wabash so it could count somewhat. And the C&O/B&O thing.
Correct me if I'm wrong didn't the Wabash run most of their varnish from Michigan to St Louis via Indiana though? I can't remember if they had any real passenger trains in Ohio.

 

[FormerOBS]

The old Wabash Cannonball made a stop in Montpelier, Ohio, way up in the NW corner of the State. Except for that, it remained in Michigan, Indiana, and Illinois on its run between Detroit and St. Louis.

Way before Amtrak, the N&W ran into Columbus from the South, and C&O ran from Kenova to Detroit, via Columbus and Toledo. If Columbus is ever going to get service to the East, maybe it could be by resurrecting that route and connecting to the Cardinal.

Tom

 

[Anderson]

I found this neat timetable page image of 3C service before it was discontinued:

http://penncentral.railfan.net/pc-ptt/pc-ptt-chiflcincleind-10-1-70_2.jpg

So there were two separate trains, one CIN-Columbus and one Columbus-CLE? Makes no sense to me. Especially northbound (southbound you had a 20 minute window).

I don't see the point of an IND-CLE train (315/316) with no major cities in between and I don't really see a large market of passengers wanting to go between the two cities.

Complete map between the East Coast and Chicago/St. Louis: http://penncentral.railfan.net/pc-ptt/pc-ptt-east-west-10-27-68_1.jpg

There was a train called the Penn Texas (http://penncentral.railfan.net/pc-ptt/pc-ptt-east-west-10-27-68_2.jpg), westbound #3, eastbound #4 between NYP and STL via PGH, Columbus, and IND. Did that go through to Texas via another rail line or did you have to transfer in STL to another train? I would say that's still better than what what we have now though between the NEC and Texas. What was the main passenger rail line(s) that served Texas before Amtrak?

One thing that stands out: My "New York Nightmare" timetable is painfully close to 63's card in there (if the Toronto train connected to 63). I really think the old 63/64 there is the "missing train" we all want for the LSL route (and that I'd want for NYP-MTR as well...it just times out too well not to want it).