Palmetto 89 Incident in Chester, Pa. (4/3/16)

[CSXfoamer1997]

Well, turns out the train was ACTUALLY travelling at 106 MPH! No wonder it traveled for about a mile after derailing!

But again, despite the damage to the locomotive, the engineer sure was lucky he wasn't killed! And definitely lucky he didn't sustain life-threatening injuries!

Had those new locos not been equipped with such safety features, such as Crash Energy Management, it could've been about 50 times worse!

Or it could have been a multi axle derailment fouling all four tracks and tearing them up. Think On the order of Chase, MD.

You're definitely right about that.

 

[jis]

Yeah, given that it was a 106mph event, the damage is surprisingly small. Thank the stars or whatever for that piece of good luck.

The credit ought to go to Siemens. They were the ones that built the locos.

It is more than just the locomotive. It was sheer luck that no parts of the disintegrated back hoe went under the train to derail the entire thing while it was slowing down from 106mph. That would have been catastrophic. That is the sort of thing CCC is talking about

 

[PaulM]

Or using Google or Bing to educate yourself. Much more efficient than asking questions here on basic stuff IMHO.

Whoa! Why is it that newbies are allowed to ask all kinds of questions about riding Amtrak that have been asked and answered many times; but when it's something technical, the snarks come out in force?

 

[jis]

An interesting article with some closer up photos from the Railway Age:

http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/safety/two-killed-in-wreck-of-amtrak-palmetto.html

 

[jebr]

Remember that this discussion is about the Palmetto derailment. Keep it on topic.

 

[StriderGDM]

Well, turns out the train was ACTUALLY travelling at 106 MPH! No wonder it traveled for about a mile after derailing!

But again, despite the damage to the locomotive, the engineer sure was lucky he wasn't killed! And definitely lucky he didn't sustain life-threatening injuries!

Had those new locos not been equipped with such safety features, such as Crash Energy Management, it could've been about 50 times worse!

You sort of contradict yourself here. Sure, some luck I suppose was involved, but really, this is engineering.

And as others have pointed out, this is a great example of how CEM can and should work.

 

[jis]

Well, turns out the train was ACTUALLY travelling at 106 MPH! No wonder it traveled for about a mile after derailing!

But again, despite the damage to the locomotive, the engineer sure was lucky he wasn't killed! And definitely lucky he didn't sustain life-threatening injuries!

Had those new locos not been equipped with such safety features, such as Crash Energy Management, it could've been about 50 times worse!

You sort of contradict yourself here. Sure, some luck I suppose was involved, but really, this is engineering.

And as others have pointed out, this is a great example of how CEM can and should work.

I agree. Personally, I think the lucky part was that the major pieces of the back hoe all got thrown clear off the track and no part large enough to cause harm managed to get under the train. That would have resulted in a bad thing. The front design of the locomotive assuredly played a part in making that happen too.

 

[OBS]

Great article from Railway Age. Thanks Jis!

 

[jis]

You're welcome!

 

[jis]

This article in WSJ is a must read!

http://www.wsj.com/articles/amtrak-crash-probe-indicates-basic-safety-measure-wasnt-deployed-1459885465

If you can't read of it because of subscription issues, just do a google search for "Amtrak Crash Probe Indicates Basic Safety Measure Wasn’t Deployed", and click on the WSJ article link. That should bypass the pay barrier.

Some key quotes from the article:

An investigation into this week’s Amtrak crash in Chester, Pa., indicates railroad crews didn’t deploy a basic, decades-old safety measure that experts say could have prevented a collision that killed two workers and injured more than 30 passengers, people familiar with the matter said.

Crews performing track work on a stretch of Amtrak’s heavily traveled Northeast Corridor on Sunday apparently didn’t put in place what is known as a supplemental shunting device ...

and

Amtrak crews don’t always use shunting devices when performing work, this person said. “It’s pretty common they don’t use them,“ this person said. “The attitude is ‘ah, we’re only going to be here for a little bit—we’re going to get in and get out of here.’ The more responsible people use them all the time.”

Oh really? This is sort of like handling ammo while smoking a cigarette or something like that no?

and furthermore

On Monday, Amtrak official Gary Noto asked colleagues to procure supplemental shunting devices, or SSDs, for crews to use when they perform track work in short windows known as “foul time.”

“Please get supply of SSD’s for all crews, we must use them whenever getting foul time, the only exception I can think of is the track inspector who is walking miles of track and when signal system cannot support this action,” Mr. Noto said in an email reviewed by The Wall Street Journal. “Please make it a point to be vigilant when visiting [work] gangs and do what you can to teach and mentor them, when deficiencies are observed.”

So one could surmise that currently the work crews are not supplied with SSDs?

I am just shaking my head and going "Wow! Just WOW!". And we are just worried about WMATA's safety culture.... Oh well. Either WSJ is publishing a hugely deceptive article or Amtrak has a huuuuuge safety culture problem. I am open minded to be convince by someone that WSJ has got it wrong.

Also, if you have subscription access to trainroders.com, reading the following thread may be very educational:

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,4002362,page=1

 

[Railroad Bill]

Whenever someone takes a short cut on safety, there is a large possibility that something bad will happen eventually. My brother found that many of his older colleagues did not like all the " new fangeled rules" and sometimes liked to do their own thing. An accident waiting to happen

 

[Bob Dylan]

Wow is right! If this is correct this will be another hit to Boardman's Safety Legacy with Amtrak!

As you said, Unbelievable!

 

[jis]

Wow is right! If this is correct this will be another hit to Boardman's Safety Legacy with Amtrak!

As you said, Unbelievable!

Unfortunately these practices apparently date all the way back to the 1990's when the SSD rules were put in place and apparently soon thereafter for various reasons a significant proportion of the people that the rules were supposed to apply to started ignoring the rules and Amtrak management did not seem to feel that it was worth enforcing the safety rules. So it is not just a Boardman problem. it appears to be a deeper systemic problem that has been festering now for over 20 years.

Rules are not worth the paper that they are written on if there is no governance mechanism in place to verify that the rules are actually being followed. Providing such governance is the job of the management. Apparently they have not been very successful in carrying out their job.

BTW, the specific rule in question is apparently this one:

140-S2. USE OF SUPPLEMENTAL SHUNTING DEVICE

This instruction requires the employee in charge of “covered fouling activities” to apply an approved Supplemental Shunting Device (SSD) to the track(s) to be fouled, after receiving foul time from the Dispatcher or Operator. The purpose of the SSD is to supplement, not replace, blocking device protection provided by the Dispatcher or Operator.

A. Covered Fouling Activities: Except as noted below, this instruction applies when equipment will be used to foul a track in signaled territory or within interlocking limits for more than 5 minutes.

This instruction does not apply when the fouling activity:

1. Requires Form D line 4 or line 5 authority,

Of course there still remains some confusion about whether the Dispatcher was actually aware of the foul time on track 3, and even if s/he was, then why such was not entered in the control system. So there is more to come I am sure.

 

[jis]

And here is an article that seems to be chasing ghosts But still interesting....

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20160405_Reuters_L2N1780LG_Amtrak_crash_shows_U_S__anti_rail_collision_system_may_have_gaps.html#ftdPxbwc7KxIq739.99

 

[PRR 60]

I cannot imagine how bad the Amtrak safety culture is that SSG's would not be placed every single time a track is fouled, even if the foul is only going to last a moment. This is the classic, "we do this all the time and never have a problem" trap. The fact that it is reported that Amtrak has now purchased additional SSG's, if true, suggests that the higher-ups were well aware of the practice and at least tacitly condoned it. Disgraceful.

I thought this on Sunday, and still think it today. Joe Boardman should be escorted out of the building by security right now. Not when he "retires." Now. Eight passengers and three employees dead, and dozens of passengers hurt due to Amtrak operating violations (and, yes, I'm assuming the NTSB will blame Amtrak for #188 - as far as I'm concerned, that is all but a given). It's time for Mr. Boardman to be held accountable.

 

[CSXfoamer1997]

I cannot imagine how bad the Amtrak safety culture is that SSG's would not be placed every single time a track is fouled, even if the foul is only going to last a moment. This is the classic, "we do this all the time and never have a problem" trap. The fact that it is reported that Amtrak has now purchased additional SSG's, if true, suggests that the higher-ups were well aware of the practice and at least tacitly condoned it. Disgraceful.

I thought this on Sunday, and still think it today. Joe Boardman should be escorted out of the building by security right now. Not when he "retires." Now. Eight passengers and three employees dead, and dozens of passengers hurt due to Amtrak operating violations (and, yes, I'm assuming the NTSB will blame Amtrak for #188 - as far as I'm concerned, that is all but a given). It's time for Mr. Boardman to be held accountable.

Now, uh, about the #188 accident, has it been determined whether engineer Bostian is at fault or not?

 

[Bob Dylan]

Seconded Bill! And what's the New Avatar? Thought you were a PRR guy for Life?

 

[PRR 60]

Seconded Bill! And what's the New Avatar? Thought you were a PRR guy for Life?

That is the Villanova Block "V." My beloved Wildcats are National Champions - and my wife and I were in Houston to see it happen in person. I'm still trying to catch my breath after that incredible final game against North Carolina.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Thanks Bill, lucky you, truely a game for the ages and a heartbreaker for the Tarheels but America loves Underdogs!

It was exciting on TV,( I didn't have a dog in the hunt but my Longhorns did beat UNC on a Buzzer Beater Last Second Shot in Austin this year!),I can imagine that it was crazy in the Dome!

 

[John Bobinyec]

I cannot imagine how bad the Amtrak safety culture is that SSG's would not be placed every single time a track is fouled, even if the foul is only going to last a moment. This is the classic, "we do this all the time and never have a problem" trap. The fact that it is reported that Amtrak has now purchased additional SSG's, if true, suggests that the higher-ups were well aware of the practice and at least tacitly condoned it. Disgraceful.

I thought this on Sunday, and still think it today. Joe Boardman should be escorted out of the building by security right now. Not when he "retires." Now. Eight passengers and three employees dead, and dozens of passengers hurt due to Amtrak operating violations (and, yes, I'm assuming the NTSB will blame Amtrak for #188 - as far as I'm concerned, that is all but a given). It's time for Mr. Boardman to be held accountable.

Now, uh, about the #188 accident, has it been determined whether engineer Bostian is at fault or not?

The NTSB has not yet released their report. It takes something on the order of a year for that.

jb

 

[CCC1007]

I cannot imagine how bad the Amtrak safety culture is that SSG's would not be placed every single time a track is fouled, even if the foul is only going to last a moment. This is the classic, "we do this all the time and never have a problem" trap. The fact that it is reported that Amtrak has now purchased additional SSG's, if true, suggests that the higher-ups were well aware of the practice and at least tacitly condoned it. Disgraceful.

I thought this on Sunday, and still think it today. Joe Boardman should be escorted out of the building by security right now. Not when he "retires." Now. Eight passengers and three employees dead, and dozens of passengers hurt due to Amtrak operating violations (and, yes, I'm assuming the NTSB will blame Amtrak for #188 - as far as I'm concerned, that is all but a given). It's time for Mr. Boardman to be held accountable.

Now, uh, about the #188 accident, has it been determined whether engineer Bostian is at fault or not?

The NTSB has not yet released their report. It takes something on the order of a year for that.
jb

I would expect that report in the next six months.

 

[fairviewroad]

This is the classic, "we do this all the time and never have a problem" trap.

It's the same rationale that pedestrians use for crossing the tracks at a location that's convenient for them but is not a legal crossing. It works great until the time it doesn't.

 

[jis]

I cannot imagine how bad the Amtrak safety culture is that SSG's would not be placed every single time a track is fouled, even if the foul is only going to last a moment. This is the classic, "we do this all the time and never have a problem" trap. The fact that it is reported that Amtrak has now purchased additional SSG's, if true, suggests that the higher-ups were well aware of the practice and at least tacitly condoned it. Disgraceful.

I thought this on Sunday, and still think it today. Joe Boardman should be escorted out of the building by security right now. Not when he "retires." Now. Eight passengers and three employees dead, and dozens of passengers hurt due to Amtrak operating violations (and, yes, I'm assuming the NTSB will blame Amtrak for #188 - as far as I'm concerned, that is all but a given). It's time for Mr. Boardman to be held accountable.

It should involve not only Boardman but the retinue of bureaucrats that he has brought in from the FRA in various key positions of relevance in this incident, who have all been remarkably silent while the fire burns their tent down.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Seconded Bill! And what's the New Avatar? Thought you were a PRR guy for Life?

That is the Villanova Block "V." My beloved Wildcats are National Champions - and my wife and I were in Houston to see it happen in person. I'm still trying to catch my breath after that incredible final game against North Carolina.

Well, I knew why you changed your avatar.

 

[JoeBas]

Well, I knew why you changed your avatar.

I'm sure all of us Delaware Valley folk did.