Refused Red Cap boarding because I'm not old or disabled

[CCC1007]

I think Amtrak needs to implement a seat selection system like that with some airlines, where you can pick your seat anywhere in the car, based on availability.

The redcap service was unacceptable, if you got the name make sure to include that in your complaint

However, Amtrak has a lot more stops than airlines.

This should not be an issue. Dedicate different cars to different trip lengths... or hire a good team of programmers to make it work.

 

[Lonestar648]

The big issue with pick your own seat or room is maximize the use of available space. With so many stops of boarding passngers plus those getting off while just on one train opens a multitude of programming design issues that the airline don't have to plan for. Family of five traveling Chicago to Sacramento near the departure date, but by using select your own seats maybe they have two seats in one car, two in another and one in a third. Where now they can sit together. Would they travel by Amtrak if they couldn't sit together? Probably not. So spending a few million, probably more to write a new reservation system, how will this increase revenue over what was paid to implement the new system? Just some thoughts. Yes, it would be nice to pick your seat, but Amtrak is not like the Airlines with point to point all on, all off seating.

 

[RSG]

Look this is the part I don't like one bit. If Amtrak cares so much about not splitting pairs of travelers, start assigning seat numbers at the time of booking so you know what you are getting into. If you go around claiming it is open seating, I expect open seating aka I get to choose where I sit. Look at Southwest Airlines. They have open seating, you don't see cabin crew block off rows of seats for families, or assign seat numbers at the gate at their own whim. You either give everyone assigned seats, or no one. Forcing people boarding from Chicago into seats decided by attendant, but letting passengers boarding one station down to pick their own seats is nonsense.

I agree with using the Southwest model of seat assignment; they seem to have perfected it down to an art (much to the chagrin of some passengers) and it seems to work for them. It doesn't require a software rewrite or a whole new IT infrastructure on the reservations side and can still perform specific goals of keeping families, groups, etc together. Certainly can't be worse than the current system. Most people, as customers, can overlook anomalies and unforeseen circumstances, but what really tends to turn the David Daos of the world into out-of-control Lindsay Lohans is being treated in an arbitrary fashion with little or no explanation or reasoning.

As for the Red Cap situation, there should be no reason for the refusal. Sounds like at least a few staff members need sensitivity awareness training. One never uses the term 'old' as a qualifier for anything, and the first thing disability rights people will inform you is that not all disabilities are obvious and it is never appropriate for someone else to casually determine what your needs are as a person with a disability. Should the same or other staff make that determination to the wrong person, they are looking at defending a discrimination claim. In all the marketing of the Red Cap service the phrase "passengers needing special assistance" is used. I would be pretty sure they don't define it any further than that just in order to insure they are inclusive and not discriminating.

Still, there seems to be issues with the Red Cap service in Chicago. I've had many positive experiences, but also a few unpleasant and downright evil stepmotherly ones. As I've noted on other threads, there is one particular Red Cap attendant which will cause me to refuse to use the service when they are on duty. As jis said, there's something about Chicago which seems to make those working inside Union Station make up their own rules.

At any rate, I do hope you will follow through with a complaint to customer relations with a copy to the management at CUS. Wrong attitudes can't change if the right people don't know they exist.

 

[Texan Eagle]

but Amtrak is not like the Airlines with point to point all on, all off seating.

Every time I see this argument made here on AU, I can't decide whether to laugh or cry at it. Every civilized country in the world with ten times more complex rail networks offer assigned seating with no problem. In fact, even third world India with the world's largest passenger rail network has been offering assigned seating since 25 years on trains that make 100+ stops and passengers can board and alight anywhere.

 

[jis]

but Amtrak is not like the Airlines with point to point all on, all off seating.

Every time I see this argument made here on AU, I can't decide whether to laugh or cry at it. Every civilized country in the world with ten times more complex rail networks offer assigned seating with no problem. In fact, even third world India with the world's largest passenger rail network has been offering assigned seating since 25 years on trains that make 100+ stops and passengers can board and alight anywhere.

And the underlying technology used by IR for doing all that is SAP Hana. And the danged thing worked in the pure paper world, and it works better in the computerized world.

I still remember those single word telegraph codes that were used to transmit status of reservation requests made from wayside station to the originating station. Single words like KIMBAM and KASKAM had specific meanings as to whether the reservation was confirmed or waitlisted or such. Fascinating how it all just worked for over a century.

 

[Johanna]

Some thoughts from someone who may or may not know what she is talking about:

Assigning seats at the time of reservation could alleviate a lot of other problems too. In stations like WAS you have people lining up an hour before their departure time so they can be the first to board the train and get the best pick of seats. All the long, sprawling lines detract from the usability of the station. If all those people had their seats assigned in advance, they could spend most of that hour in the food court (or elsewhere in the station, or at home), then stroll onto the train 10-15 minutes before departure and take their seats.

On the long-distance trains, I appreciate the efforts taken to segregate passengers who will be disembarking at daytime versus nighttime stops. But surely that can be taken into account when you're offered your pick of seats (i.e., you can't choose from any seat on the train - just from those in the car designated for nighttime destinations, so the passengers in the daytime-destination car don't have to listen to you shuffling around to collect your stuff right before your stop).

If none of this would work for some reason, I wonder if Amtrak could keep separate inventories of window versus aisle seats, and sell them at different prices if necessary? The system is already set up to do that with upper and lower level seats, so it should be possible. That way, people who really want a view out the window don't have to stress out about whether they'll get one, and the people who just want to get where they're going may be able to save a few dollars.

 

[gatelouse]

Best compromise approach I've seen is on a recent CZ. Within each car, singles to the front half, pairs to the rear half. No further seat assignment.

 

[railiner]

Some thoughts from someone who may or may not know what she is talking about:

Assigning seats at the time of reservation could alleviate a lot of other problems too. In stations like WAS you have people lining up an hour before their departure time so they can be the first to board the train and get the best pick of seats. All the long, sprawling lines detract from the usability of the station. If all those people had their seats assigned in advance, they could spend most of that hour in the food court (or elsewhere in the station, or at home), then stroll onto the train 10-15 minutes before departure and take their seats.

On the long-distance trains, I appreciate the efforts taken to segregate passengers who will be disembarking at daytime versus nighttime stops. But surely that can be taken into account when you're offered your pick of seats (i.e., you can't choose from any seat on the train - just from those in the car designated for nighttime destinations, so the passengers in the daytime-destination car don't have to listen to you shuffling around to collect your stuff right before your stop).

If none of this would work for some reason, I wonder if Amtrak could keep separate inventories of window versus aisle seats, and sell them at different prices if necessary? The system is already set up to do that with upper and lower level seats, so it should be possible. That way, people who really want a view out the window don't have to stress out about whether they'll get one, and the people who just want to get where they're going may be able to save a few dollars.

I agree, completely. Amtrak already has the system that could be programmed to make all of that possible. The biggest hurdle would be to convince them to make it happen. And of course change the employees attitudes to accept it, rather than resist it kicking and screaming...

 

[railiner]

If a pre- reserved seat policy were implemented, it would have a negative impact on redcaps, as they would no longer get those easy jobs, carting someone's briefcase to pre-board and 'beat' the line...

The whole boarding process kind of reminds me of going to a "headliner's" show in Las Vegas...last time I was there, you couldn't reserve a particular seat...just a particular performance. Then when entering the showroom, you

"greased the palm" of your usher, to get the better seats...

Needless to say, you had to be "connected", to get one of those lucrative jobs...just like their valet parking attendant's...

 

[Thirdrail7]

I'm currently at Chicago Union Station ready to board Southwest Chief. I approached the Red Cap desk requesting their service to board. The guy looked at me, looked at my one bag and says "YOU need a Red Cap? Sorry we can't do that. This service is only for the old and disabled". I told him I'll tip, but he was adamant.

Is this a new rule or was the guy making it all up?

Oh also, say hello to coach attendant on power trip insisting on giving everyone seat numbers and not letting me pick a window seat despite a half empty train.

I'm seriously trying to picture this. A RED CAP actually REFUSED service and a TIP? A RED CAP? This has to be a first. I hope you took the time you invested in making this post and put it to good use by marching to the customer service desk in CHI and demanding assistance and filing a formal complaint. It is FREE service. You don't HAVE to tip them and they are not supposed to ask. It is available to EVERYONE. I'm not a lawyer but I would think they are not even allowed to ask if you have a disability. I would also venture to guess that by saying service is only available to "old people" amounts to some form of discrimination.

I seriously hope you didn't something other than make a post on this board. I'm interested in knowing what customer services said about this.

Some thoughts from someone who may or may not know what she is talking about:

Assigning seats at the time of reservation could alleviate a lot of other problems too. In stations like WAS you have people lining up an hour before their departure time so they can be the first to board the train and get the best pick of seats. All the long, sprawling lines detract from the usability of the station. If all those people had their seats assigned in advance, they could spend most of that hour in the food court (or elsewhere in the station, or at home), then stroll onto the train 10-15 minutes before departure and take their seats.

On the long-distance trains, I appreciate the efforts taken to segregate passengers who will be disembarking at daytime versus nighttime stops. But surely that can be taken into account when you're offered your pick of seats (i.e., you can't choose from any seat on the train - just from those in the car designated for nighttime destinations, so the passengers in the daytime-destination car don't have to listen to you shuffling around to collect your stuff right before your stop).

If none of this would work for some reason, I wonder if Amtrak could keep separate inventories of window versus aisle seats, and sell them at different prices if necessary? The system is already set up to do that with upper and lower level seats, so it should be possible. That way, people who really want a view out the window don't have to stress out about whether they'll get one, and the people who just want to get where they're going may be able to save a few dollars.

If anyone recalls, they started this service with the Acela and passengers hated it. It also didn't work correctly. Different trains have different loading plans. Some of them are based upon the train size, service requirements, host requirements and station size. Some stations may need certain cars on the platform to accommodate baggage work. There may be a group getting on and they need the seats for late. They may want the person that is getting off first on the aisle because some people sleep like to relax during the day as well.

What works on one train may not work on another train because operating profiles are completely different.

To that end, they were supposedly working on some system that will do exactly what Johanna stated. It would show the consist, the car diagram, the seating chart, the direction of the seats etc. It is part of a massive overhaul of the operations system. Some of it has already been completed. It may help but I'm not in favor of charging people for window seats, forward facing seats (etc.)

 

[Johanna]

Best compromise approach I've seen is on a recent CZ. Within each car, singles to the front half, pairs to the rear half. No further seat assignment.

This is what they did on the EB I took out of Seattle last week. Despite the repeated announcements that the train would be full and they'd need every seat, the majority of singles got seats to themselves (at least as far as LWA, where I got off).

 

[Devil's Advocate]

[One] time, they had taped off half the car for a large group boarding one or two stations away. Many people removed the tape only to be told they had to move to another seat. A group of high School kids did board with their chaperons filling every seat taped off. This seemed like a reasonable request.

I've seen many other instances where half the car was reserved but never once occupied throughout the entire run. The staff never budged an inch or checked any manifests, they just immediately barked at whoever so much as glanced at those seats. The problem with this situation is that, in addition to being lousy customer service, it also leaves people doubting and distrusting Amtrak staff even in those cases when there's a legitimate need for those seats.

If Amtrak wants reserved LD Coach seating they need to rewrite the reservation program, which with no extra cash, will not happen.

ARROW has supported customer seat selection at booking for at least sixteen years now. The front end website may not support seat selection but the solution to that is the same as the one already employed for sleeper passengers who want a specific room. Which is to say those who care can make their purchase by phone and select from the available options.

 

[jis]

Amtrak is potentially leaving money on the table. They could assess a service charge for those that want a pre-assigned seat, like SNCF charges a reservation fee, even on trains where it is "reservation obligatoire". Brits on the other hand let you reserve a seat for free.

What I find disturbing is the "I can screw you therefore I will" attitude among a disturbingly large proportion of Coach attendants. This is not to say that there are many good Coach attendants too. But it takes just a few to turn one quite sour on the whole thing.

 

[JayPea]

Best compromise approach I've seen is on a recent CZ. Within each car, singles to the front half, pairs to the rear half. No further seat assignment.

I saw the same sort of thing on the EB on one occasion. I being a single traveler sat in the proper section, while several single travelers spread over two or three seats each in the section for groups. This was in Seattle, and at the next stop, Edmonds, a family of four got on and found no room in the sections reserved for groups, so they had to find seats in the section for singles. The car attendant asked several people to move to accomodate them. None did, so she ordered me to move out of my window seat. No asking about it. Instead of making the singles in the section for groups move. :angry: Then she promised to find me a window seat and made no effort to do so. Finally the conductor made me take an aisle seat. When I complained to the car attendant, she huffily told me I could have a window seat at Spokane. When she knew darned well I was getting off there. :angry:

 

[Texan Eagle]

I'm seriously trying to picture this. A RED CAP actually REFUSED service and a TIP? A RED CAP? This has to be a first. I hope you took the time you invested in making this post and put it to good use by marching to the customer service desk in CHI and demanding assistance and filing a formal complaint. It is FREE service. You don't HAVE to tip them and they are not supposed to ask. It is available to EVERYONE. I'm not a lawyer but I would think they are not even allowed to ask if you have a disability. I would also venture to guess that by saying service is only available to "old people" amounts to some form of discrimination.

I seriously hope you didn't something other than make a post on this board. I'm interested in knowing what customer services said about this.

Yes. Let me play out the entire conversation for you-

Me: Can you please take me to board Southwest Chief?

Redcap: Yea, go and stand in that queue <points to general boarding line>

Me: No, I mean I would like Redcap service.

Redcap: <looks at me> who wants Redcap service? Where are they?

Me: I want it. I'm here.

Redcap: YOU want Redcap service? Why? Where is all your baggage?

Me: <pointing to my one carry-on bag> Here it is.

Redcap: That's it? Umm no, can't do it. This service is for the old and disabled passengers.

Me: <one last attempt to convince him> I will tip you. Are you sure?

Redcap: Nope. Go stand in that line.

I did not march to the customer service desk because I had to stand in general boarding queue to board the train. I wrote this post while on the train. I will call Customer Relations and talk to them about this.

 

[BCL]

I'm seriously trying to picture this. A RED CAP actually REFUSED service and a TIP? A RED CAP? This has to be a first. I hope you took the time you invested in making this post and put it to good use by marching to the customer service desk in CHI and demanding assistance and filing a formal complaint. It is FREE service. You don't HAVE to tip them and they are not supposed to ask. It is available to EVERYONE. I'm not a lawyer but I would think they are not even allowed to ask if you have a disability. I would also venture to guess that by saying service is only available to "old people" amounts to some form of discrimination.

I seriously hope you didn't something other than make a post on this board. I'm interested in knowing what customer services said about this.

Yes. Let me play out the entire conversation for you-

Me: Can you please take me to board Southwest Chief?

Redcap: Yea, go and stand in that queue <points to general boarding line>

Me: No, I mean I would like Redcap service.

Redcap: <looks at me> who wants Redcap service? Where are they?

Me: I want it. I'm here.

Redcap: YOU want Redcap service? Why? Where is all your baggage?

Me: <pointing to my one carry-on bag> Here it is.

Redcap: That's it? Umm no, can't do it. This service is for the old and disabled passengers.

Me: <one last attempt to convince him> I will tip you. Are you sure?

Redcap: Nope. Go stand in that line.

I did not march to the customer service desk because I had to stand in general boarding queue to board the train. I wrote this post while on the train. I will call Customer Relations and talk to them about this.

Honestly in their position I would be wondering what you wanted from the redcap service. It doesn't sound like you had a bag that you couldn't handle yourself or needed to be checked in. Of course you were fed a BS line about who could request their assistance, and that's inexcusable. They're supposed to help unfamiliar people navigate through stations (location of the bathrooms seems to be a common question), but in general I don't think that means figurative hand holding to the train.

http://blog.amtrak.com/2014/10/redcapsatyourservice/

The description they have is that any baggage handled by a redcap involves a claim check, so it's going to need to be checked in.

https://www.amtrak.com/baggage-services

Just curious what kind of service you were thinking you'd get? I think they're supposed to help if it's something like a family of 4 with larger carry-on baggage and a couple of toddlers, but I don't know how it matches the requirement that any handled baggage needs a claim check.

 

[jis]

So seems like you put a thick layer of your own unfounded input into interpreting the blog. Where does it say that you are not allowed to use Red Cap service if you have a small bag? Show us. You can think whatever you like but your interpretation is yours alone and is not supported in any way by the text in the blog. How is the Red Cap guy supposed to predetermine that you do not need help, that you are not new at the station etc. etc.? I call BS on your interpretation. Sorry.

 

[PRR 60]

This really is a bazaar story. If anything, Red Caps are usually over enthusiastic about handling luggage even when they are not asked. I once had a Chicago Red Cap literally grab my 21" roll aboard out of my hand as I was walking to the Empire Builder and put it on his cart with a bunch of other bags. I politely took it back off the cart and told him, "Thanks, but I got it."

A Red Cap turning down an easy tip. This might be a first.

 

[BCL]

So seems like you put a thick layer of your own unfounded input into interpreting the blog. Where does it say that you are not allowed to use Red Cap service if you have a small bag? Show us. You can think whatever you like but your interpretation is yours alone and is not supported in any way by the text in the blog. How is the Red Cap guy supposed to predetermine that you do not need help, that you are not new at the station etc. etc.? I call BS on your interpretation. Sorry.

I never said that. I'm still trying to understand what the original purpose was of requesting assistance. Yeah I would have been taken aback if the redcap was insistent that such services were only reserved for the disabled or elderly. I could imagine one believing that baggage services should be prioritized for people with some difficulties, even if it was said in a clumsy manner.

Certainly I've heard that a lot of people whose job is to handle baggage detest modern rolling luggage because so few people request their assistance, and by extension create opportunities to accept tips. And absolutely it seems a bit crazy that anyone who lives off of tips would turn down the opportunity to get one.

 

[BCL]

This really is a bazaar story. If anything, Red Caps are usually over enthusiastic about handling luggage even when they are not asked. I once had a Chicago Red Cap literally grab my 21" roll aboard out of my hand as I was walking to the Empire Builder and put it on his cart with a bunch of other bags. I politely took it back off the cart and told him, "Thanks, but I got it."

A Red Cap turning down an easy tip. This might be a first.

Isn't that soliciting work?

 

[JoeBas]

I'm still trying to understand what the original purpose was of requesting assistance.

Early access to the train? Avoiding the scrum in the line? Wanting to give a poor lost Redcap a break and some bread? A rare and wanted experience of feeling how the other half lives? What difference does it make what his motivation was?

 

[Devil's Advocate]

This really is a bazaar story.

It's so bazaar it's bizarre. h34r:

Just curious what kind of service you were thinking you'd get? I think they're supposed to help if it's something like a family of 4 with larger carry-on baggage and a couple of toddlers, but I don't know how it matches the requirement that any handled baggage needs a claim check.

What you seem to be saying between the lines is that single male travelers don't have the automatic right to make use of priority boarding simply because they're not quite clueless or helpless enough. Which honestly makes no sense to me, but it does seem to match the mindset of the person who apparently refused to provide service despite the loss of a tip.

 

[BCL]

OK, I've declined using a red cap when I had an opportunity. I was under the impression that the reasons were for baggage handling and directions, but I didn't really understand that priority boarding could be requested. So I'm waving my white flag here.

 

[HP_Lovecraft]

.

Look at Southwest Airlines. They have open seating, you don't see cabin crew block off rows of seats for families, or assign seat numbers at the gate at their own whim. You either give everyone assigned seats, or no one. Forcing people boarding from Chicago into seats decided by attendant, but letting passengers boarding one station down to pick their own seats is nonsense.

I think the South West model is a total disaster. It has the worst features of Amtraks open-seating, and reserved seating used in other transport.

First of all, it is not really open-seating. It starts with the business-select group, then the upgraded boarding group, then the early check-in group. These tiers all cost more money. Then "families". Then in order that everyone did the normal check in.

So many people try to game the system that its far, far worse then amtrak. I've seen groups of 9-10 with ONE child, hoping to jump to the front of the line. I've seen groups with ONE person pay for priority boarding that hold seats until the rest show up. Or they do the "puffy jacket", or "fake sleeping" tricks you see on trains. or the person who jumps the line, and pretends to be confused, or convenient lack of english.

Each airport handles this mess differently. Some super strict, some are total madness. It sucks for me, as I have 6 kids. On our last trip, they told us. Only kids under six, with a parent, can board early. So the 4 siblings that were over 6 had to board seperatly, and none of them sat together. We weren't willing to do the dirty tricks above.

Amtraks systems, however, its simple. If sitting together is important, show up early, try to board at a terminus, and use a redcap when possible.

 

[neroden]

I had to threaten to sue once. ( I was with my *disabled* girlfriend. They were profiling, incompetently. Once they figured out that they were trying to deny assistance to a disabled person, they backed off.)