Amtrak FY25 Grant Request

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jis

jis

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Amtrak's FY25 Grant Request is out and it has many interesting items in it....

Amtrak FY25 Grant Request (PDF)

Specifically interesting things that jump out are:

1. $30 Million for Cross Border Service Improvement including:
  • Adirondack
  • Detroit-Windsor
  • Vancouver BC
  • Vermonter (Montreal Extension)
2. $50 Million for Long Distance Facilities and Service Expansion:
  • Facilities investment
  • New I-20 Corridor Service
  • Daily Cardinal and Sunset Limited
  • Feasibility study of FRA recommended Long Distance
3. $300 Million: NEC Improvements
  • WAS terminal speed improvements
  • MD high-speed rail segments (Bush/Gunpowder, Brill to Landlith)
  • DE catenary improvements
  • PA bridge modernization (Chester)
  • N. Philadelphia curve modification (Frankford Junction)
  • NJ Raceway extension
  • Metro North territory curve modifications (Amtrak share)
  • New Haven-to-Providence capacity next steps (post-study)
  • Providence, RI station improvements
  • Boston maintenance facility capacity growth
4. $50 Million for non-federal match for National Network projects

etc.

Take a look at it. Lots of fodder to chew on.
 
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In Fig 5.3 it lays out how the IIJA Supplemental Appropriation is proposed to be used, and it gives some hints of things that will happen irrespective of what Congress provides in annual Appropriations. Here are the important items and amounts:

  • Airo Trainsets (83 base + 4 Piedmont) $4 Billion
  • LD Passenger Car Replacement (replacement only, no additions) $7 Billion
  • ALC-42 (75 base + 50 additional) $676 Million
  • ADA Station Program Platform Gap Solution and PIDS $1.3 Billion
  • Next Gen Reservation System $601 Million
  • Federal-State Matching funds (e.g. Douglass Tunnel) $1.6 Billion
  • Maintenance and Crew Base Facilities supporting Airo and other operations) $4.9 Billion
Adding up to close to the $22 Billion when Contingencies are included.
 
jis said:
Details of the proposed FY25 investment plans can be found in the FY25 Grant Request.
Click to expand...
Look at page 33 of the Grant Request and it will sober you up. Amtrak claims a need for $27 million to restore dining car service to the Texas Eagle. The first time a train has been singled out in such a way. The section is quoted below . . . to anyone who cares, it is time to call out Amtrak management.

$27 million in FY 25 would enable Amtrak to fully restore traditional dining on the Long-Distance Texas Eagle. Funding would also enable exploration of other potential F&B improvements, with a focus on 1) further expansion of traditional dining, if feasible, and/or 2) expanded availability of for-a-fee traditional dining for coach class customers. Other areas of evaluation could include pilot programs to test new service concepts; improved training for employees; and/or other customer experience enhancements aligned with FBWG recommendations.
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Brian Battuello said:
Thanks very much for the summary. I think I learn more here than from the RPA newsletters.
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Actually, I just summarized stuff that stood out for me in documents pointed to by various RPA emails to the Council. I don't know if and how these documents may have been provided pointers to the general membership by RPA.

In any case, I will post any other stuff that strikes me as of special interest as I find them.

Incidentally, while we are at it, the section on Planned Service Level, Routes and Station Stop Changes in FY24 is worth a read. Some interesting points:
  • No reduction temporary or otherwise is foreseen for any train in the Long Distance network.
  • Expects to move the Miami Station stop of the Silver service to Miami Intermodal Center at Miami International Airport.
  • Expect to initiate the following services:
    • Chicago-Milwaukee-St. Paul
    • New Orleans-Mobile
  • NEC Regional Service expected to grow frequencies beyond the 2019 level using fixed forward-backward seating and double ended trains.
  • NEC Acela Service not expected to exceed 2019 levels
 
jmtilley said:
Look at page 33 of the Grant Request and it will sober you up. Amtrak claims a need for $27 million to restore dining car service to the Texas Eagle. The first time a train has been singled out in such a way. The section is quoted below . . . to anyone who cares, it is time to call out Amtrak management.
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This is a patently false narrative. They are asking for $27 million for F&B improvement, of which only $19 million is for National Network Account. Even that amount would be used to restore Traditional Service to some subset of multiple National Network trains that still lack such, including the eastern end of the Texas Eagle, the Crescent, the Lake Shore limited, the City of New Orleans, the Capitol Limited and any others that I might have missed. Additionally there may be other items from the FBWG recommendations to be addressed.

So no $27 million is not just for restoring dining car to the Texas Eagle.
 
jmtilley said:
Look at page 33 of the Grant Request and it will sober you up. Amtrak claims a need for $27 million to restore dining car service to the Texas Eagle. The first time a train has been singled out in such a way. The section is quoted below . . . to anyone who cares, it is time to call out Amtrak management.
Click to expand...
😵Amtrak is taking a page out of the UP Negotiating SOP!
 
jis said:
This is a patently false narrative. They are asking for $27 million for F&B improvement, of which only $19 million is for National Network Account. Even that amount would be used to restore Traditional Service to some subset of multiple National Network trains that still lack such, including the eastern end of the Texas Eagle, the Crescent, the Lake Shore limited, the City of New Orleans, the Capitol Limited and any others that I might have missed. Additionally there may be other items from the FBWG recommendations to be addressed.

So no $27 million is not just for restoring dining car to the Texas Eagle.
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Please provide the page on the grant request where you sourced your insight.
 
jmtilley said:
Please provide the page on the grant request where you sourced your insight.
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It would seem that you are the one that needs to explain how from the following text in the document:

Food & Beverage Service Improvements — Amtrak is seeking $27 million in FY 25 for a Food & Beverage Service Improvements initiative. This initiative would support advancement of actions that were favorably discussed in Amtrak’s response to recent Food & Beverage Working Group (FBWG) recommendations, but for which necessary funding is not currently available. (While Amtrak is requesting $27 million in FY 25, funding for this initiative is sliding-scale: the company can utilize whatever level of additional resources Congress chooses to provide to advance / implement promising ideas in the FBWG report.)
Click to expand...

You conclude that all of it is for restoring Diner to the TE, especially when in the previous page it is stated clearly that only $19 million of it is for the National Network..
 
jis said:
It would seem that you are the one that needs to explain how from the following text in the document:



You conclude that all of it is for restoring Diner to the TE, especially when in the previous page it is stated clearly that only $19 million of it is for the National Network..
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The quotation is from page 33 of the grant request. I see the split between NEC and NN.

The Five Year plan document outlines that the Crescent is to receive a diner later this year-no linkage in either that the Crescent diner has any linkage to the $27 million.

I cannot identify any thoughts about diner on Lake Shore Limited.
 
jmtilley said:
  • The quotation is from page 33 of the grant request. I see the split between NEC and NN.

The Five Year plan document outlines that the Crescent is to receive a diner later this year-no linkage in either that the Crescent diner has any linkage to the $27 million.

I cannot identify any thoughts about diner on Lake Shore Limited.
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That is why I said "that amount would be used to restore Traditional Service to some subset of multiple National Network trains that still lack such". At present only the Crescent has been mentioned, That is a valid subset of the set that I enumerated. Indeed even a null set would be a valid subset too ;)

In any case it has no mentioned linkage to the TE which you proclaimed it does. Hence what you posted remain a false narrative irrespective of any other nits that can be picked in what I posted.

To reiterate....

Currently the following trains lack Traditional Dining:
  • Crescent
  • Lake Shore Limited
  • Capitol Limited
  • Texas Eagle (SAS-CHI)
  • City of New Orleans
In addition there are possibly other service enhancements that have been proposed bby the FBWG that need to be addressed. The requested funding will presumably be used to address some of these items. That is all we can say definitively at present, and we are in no position to claim that all $27 million will be used on a single item as you claimed.
 
jis said:
That is why I said "that amount would be used to restore Traditional Service to some subset of multiple National Network trains that still lack such". At present only the Crescent has been mentioned, That is a valid subset of the set that I enumerated. Indeed even a null set would be a valid subset too ;)

In any case it has no mentioned linkage to the TE which you proclaimed it does. Hence what you posted remain a false narrative irrespective of any other nits that can be picked in what I posted.

To reiterate....

Currently the following trains lack Traditional Dining:
  • Crescent
  • Lake Shore Limited
  • Capitol Limited
  • Texas Eagle (SAS-CHI)
  • City of New Orleans
In addition there are possibly other service enhancements that have been proposed bby the FBWG that need to be addressed. The requested funding will presumably be used to address some of these items. That is all we can say definitively at present, and we are in no position to claim that all $27 million will be used on a single item as you claimed.
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Allow me to reframe my point.

l travel frequently on Acela and am one of the fortunate few to travel first class exclusively.
I am sure you are aware that liquor service is available for no charge and is basically unlimited. Moreover, the new Starr Restaurant catering is delightful.
The irony is not lost on me that Amtrak has NEVER identified any spending specifically targeted to plying me or others with liquor and an upscale menu.

Similarly, at the Moynihan lounge . . . the complimentary food is, again, a delight but, again, somehow funded without specifically identifying in a Congressional budget request.

And I might add to NEC has always been and will be in the future a far more voracious consumer of cash . . . the "profit" is a bookkeeping illusion.

Quote from page 33 follows . . . a pretty clear linkage between the $27 million and the Eagle. Would you not agree?

$27 million in FY 25 would enable Amtrak to fully restore traditional dining on the Long-Distance Texas Eagle. Funding would also enable exploration of other potential F&B improvements, with a focus on 1) further expansion of traditional dining, if feasible, and/or 2) expanded availability of for-a-fee traditional dining for coach class customers. Other areas of evaluation could include pilot programs to test new service concepts; improved training for employees; and/or other customer experience enhancements aligned with FBWG recommendations.
Click to expand...
 
jmtilley said:
Quote from page 33 follows . . . a pretty clear linkage between the $27 million and the Eagle. Would you not agree?
Click to expand...
$27 million in FY 25 would enable Amtrak to fully restore traditional dining on the Long-Distance Texas Eagle. Funding would also enable exploration of other potential F&B improvements, with a focus on 1) further expansion of traditional dining, if feasible, and/or 2) expanded availability of for-a-fee traditional dining for coach class customers. Other areas of evaluation could include pilot programs to test new service concepts; improved training for employees; and/or other customer experience enhancements aligned with FBWG recommendations.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
That pretty much says what I said. It is not specific to TE but to a set of trains without Traditional Dining at present which includes TE. One cannot come to the conclusion that all $27 million is needed to restore Traditional Dining to TE alone as implied in your original post, which has been the only point that I have been arguing.

l travel frequently on Acela and am one of the fortunate few to travel first class exclusively.
I am sure you are aware that liquor service is available for no charge and is basically unlimited. Moreover, the new Starr Restaurant catering is delightful.
The irony is not lost on me that Amtrak has NEVER identified any spending specifically targeted to plying me or others with liquor and an upscale menu.

Similarly, at the Moynihan lounge . . . the complimentary food is, again, a delight but, again, somehow funded without specifically identifying in a Congressional budget request.
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Are you suggesting that because they have not broken out food service improvement costs in the past they should not do so going forward? What would exactly be the logic behind that position? They have requested $19 Million for NN and $8 Million for NEC. It would be reasonable to ask them perhaps via the FBWG representative from RPA, as to what they have exactly in mind. That could be arranged I am sure.

And I might add to NEC has always been and will be in the future a far more voracious consumer of cash . . . the "profit" is a bookkeeping illusion.
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And that has exactly what to do with food service in and of itself? I am sure that F&B forms a relatively small item in the NEC's overall cost of operations, which is where that cost would be hiding if it is not separately shown in the account.

We all know that there is fuzziness in separating capital and operating costs. It is not unique to Amtrak or the NEC. Heck we used to do it all the time at the places I worked and always had very animated discussion about it each time. All of it is not necessarily cooking the books either because very genuine arguments can be made for individual items justifying inclusion on one side or the other. I am quite sure that we should not derail this thread away from discussing what is being funded to discussing minutia of accounting one more time.
 
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Cal said:
Of the original pool of superliner I's II's combined?
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Yes. Apparently so. I suspect though that they will order enough to continue running the existing services, and then ask for additional appropriations for equipment for additional trains. But just my random guess,
 
To reiterate....

Currently the following trains lack Traditional Dining:
  • Crescent
  • Lake Shore Limited
  • Capitol Limited
  • Texas Eagle (SAS-CHI)
  • City of New Orleans
Click to expand...

The state of the City of New Orleans dining service is the worst, with only Cafe offerings being served.
Flex Offerings would be an improvement, sad as that is.

https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/...-of-New-Orleans-Flexible-Dining-Menu-0823.pdf

Based on the low request for F & B improvements, I would not count on seeing wide re-introduction of Traditional Dining
to the trains with Flex meals this year.

Ken
 
It is interesting looking at the list of Capital Infrastructure Projects funded by IIJA (non-HSR):

1710684841089.png

This addresses almost everything that needs to be replaced in NEC Spine South. Also addresses placing the high level platforms at Chicago Union Station into service. It still leave $11+ Billion yet to be committed.

Remember, this is money that has already been appropriated as part of IIJA
 
Amtrak also requested 250 million for CHIP, unclear though on which subproject this would fund. Also revealed is the total cost which has somehow jumped to 3 billion. IMG_4881.jpeg
 
Yes. It lists the restoration of traditional dining to the Texas Eagle as an example of an upgrade Amtrak could make if the “food and beverage improvements” line item is funded. But it does not state that is the full scope of the food and beverage improvements initiative as jis mentioned. It also states that that particular initiative will be a “sliding scale” based on funding. Meaning they could undertake a subset of the proposed scope under that initiative based on the annual grant and it’s not necessarily an all or nothing. I think the idea behind these initiatives pointing out specific things they could do under “modernization” is not nefarious - I think it’s designed to demonstrate specific things that they could accomplish (or speed up) if congress provided more funding rather than just saying “here’s what we want - trust us we’ll do some great stuff with it.” The idea being to try to entice people on the hill to go for more money. Whether it could work - we’ll see. Some of these are intended to point out that timelines on certain planned initiatives could be shortened with additional funding.
 
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AmtrakMaineiac said:
Also the Cardinal
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Right. Missed that one. Interestingly Cardinal in its single level incarnation never had a Diner. It has had a limited Conventional Dining over that period until COVID hit.
 
Regarding the Texas Eagle (and all flex dining trains for that matter) let’s just say for the sake of argument they get 0 of the 27 mil. Is Flexible dining the very best they can do with the current budget they are allotting to those trains? I don’t remember the exact number but I remember hearing $35-40 per flexible meal quite a while ago.

People seem to be split on the opinion if Acela first class meals are better than Flex dining but seem to agree it’s presented better. If nothing else for the sake of the high fares sleeper passengers are paying they deserve a better presentation. Amtrak should easily be able to provide better than airline quality pre cooked food they after all have better refrigeration, storage, and dining areas than any airline. I don’t so much think it’s a budget issue per se but lack of out of the box thinking and hard headiness. We don’t necessarily need traditional dining on all trains just food that’s better than the $4-6 tv dinners that are poorly presented and at this point have years of awful reviews.

Hopefully the FB committee have some plan B ideas that are more cost effective and provide a better product even if extra funding isn’t obtained.
 
jis said:
Right. Missed that one. Interestingly Cardinal in its single level incarnation never had a Diner. It has had a limited Conventional Dining over that period until COVID hit.
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It had a Heritage diner in the early to mid-2000s, shortly after conversion from Superliner. It may have been one of the first trains to lose a diner during the start of the cuts to on-board service, but it had one for a little while at least.
 

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