A fascinating reflection on the cost of travel

[AlanB]

Why not just tell people that if we didn't show then we might get bumped? It's so simple, but instead of letting people change their mind the PA guy just kept on berating them. "Will all parties with a one-thirty reservation please come to the dining car now?!" I wish he could have just let their no-show status do the talking for them instead. Maybe a compromise would be once every hour they give a PA update. Or maybe they just sit and wait for the next set of reservations to show up at the previously scheduled time instead of trying to rush everyone to show up earlier because someone else didn't show. These are just ideas that would improve service for me in particular, Amtrak can still just do what they've always done if they so choose.

Alas, it's not "just that simple." You'll have people standing there arguing for hours about how they should still be allowed to sit down and get their meal, even though they missed their appointed time. Even now it happens with some pretending that they didn't hear the announcement. The LSA will spend half their day doing nothing but arguing with people.

And yet they are doing just that, convincing more and more Americans to take Amtrak. Ridership continues to go up year after year, and not just on the short haul commuter-like routes. It's going up on the LD's too.

Ridership is definately up, but not anywhere near enough to get or keep Amtrak solvent. Under the status quo solvency is still Amtrak's supposed goal and I'm not sure they're that much closer to achieving solvency now than before. If I understand correctly there are parts of Amtrak that might become solvent if they were sufficently spun off from the longhaul operations but if that were possible I assume it would have already happened by now. As for why Amtrak has more passengers, I have yet to see anything imply it's due to the persuasive abilities Amtrak employees. I'm far more inclinded to credit increases in gas prices and several years of additional airline restrictions on everything from baggage fees to award availabilty. Amtrak hospitality would rate pretty low in my estimation.

Amtrak will never be solvent. It's simply not possible. At best Amtrak might one day hope to cover its operating expenses, but it will always require capital investment.

As for parts of Amtrak, the LD's are actually one of the better areas for Amtrak. The NEC does make an operating profit, but that profit vanishes big time when you factor in the costs of maintaining the NEC. In fact I've seen some reports that suggest that the LD's only require about $300M of the more than $1.3 Billion in subsidies that Amtrak gets each year. I will grant that probably 1/3rd of that $1.3B currently goes to paying loans that Amtrak has been forced to take out to buy equipment and to keep its head above water during years that Congress under-funded Amtrak.

The only part of Amtrak that breaks even are the State operated corridors, and even there in most cases they are only breaking even on operating costs. And the reason that Amtrak is breaking even on operating costs is because the States are paying the deficit.

Finally gas prices impacted the corridors far more than the LD's, and airline restrictions have been around for almost 10 years now. Can't attribute increases due to that.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Yeah, I hear you. Nothing can be done and the intercom must be in constant use to notify everyone when it's time for less than one percent of the pax to run to the dining car, lest they become dangerously famished from sitting all day. Some of the employees do know what they're doing. I was first asked to check-in about fifteen minutes prior to my reserved time to see if they were about ready for me. I'm fully mobile under my own power so that was fine. If they weren't ready they had the lounge right next to the dining car so I could just hang out there until they had a free spot. But then things took a turn for the worse. Someone else was running the PA and spent their shift constantly reminding each reservation to hurry up or to wait a little longer, as the case may be, and used the PA as a whip when folks either changed their minds or got sidetracked on other things. Why not just tell people that if we didn't show then we might get bumped? It's so simple, but instead of letting people change their mind the PA guy just kept on berating them. "Will all parties with a one-thirty reservation please come to the dining car now?!" I wish he could have just let their no-show status do the talking for them instead. Maybe a compromise would be once every hour they give a PA update. Or maybe they just sit and wait for the next set of reservations to show up at the previously scheduled time instead of trying to rush everyone to show up earlier because someone else didn't show. These are just ideas that would improve service for me in particular, Amtrak can still just do what they've always done if they so choose.

Dude, I have no idea what you are doing sleeping between the hours of 9:30 AM and 9:30 PM, but I really don't think Amtrak should be catering its announcements, which I personally find very useful (excluding the occasional LSA who feels a need to read menus verbatim to the entire train... but I've only had two of those people in my years of riding) for the benefit of one of the rare humans who is, apparently, nocturnal.

When I post it is usualy not from opinion but from fact.

... First of all, put away your lysergic acid diethylamide. Next, put the cap on your bottle of methamphetamine pills. Then cap all of your sharpies. And put away the glue. And stop eating mushrooms.

Cuz clearly, you are hallucinating.

Most of what you say is.. opinion. Most of what I say is... also opinion. Most of what everybody on this board says in argument is based on... opinions. And there is only one correct opinion, and that's mine.

Just kidding. There are no correct opinions. We are arguing over what we personally think on the subject. And there is nothing wrong with that. But please, stick to reality and realize that's what all of this is.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Amtrak will never be solvent. It's simply not possible. At best Amtrak might one day hope to cover its operating expenses, but it will always require capital investment.

I agree, but that illogical mandate still remains intact to this day. Until that expectation is addressed Amtrak will always be considered a failure by politicians and taxpayers alike. It's the "poison pill" that was shoved down Amtrak's throat when it was born and has forever doomed our passenger rail network to perpetual zombie status. It doesn't matter if we're talking availability, scheduling, performance, safety or whatever else; every major concern always seems to come back to this. Which is why I'm wondering if we simply need to start over again, hopefully with a new mandate that does not expect or claim to expect solvency. Unfortunately the federal budget of the world's richest country is so overdrawn funding endless wars and providing repeated bailouts for Wall Street that we've already long since spent any money that could have been used to modernize Amtrak and allow them to compete with expectations already long since met by other carriers in countries with far smaller national budgets.

Finally gas prices impacted the corridors far more than the LD's, and airline restrictions have been around for almost 10 years now. Can't attribute increases due to that.

Ticket prices, baggage fees, award availability, redemption fees, change fees, and security restrictions have NOT remained constant during the last ten years. They've gotten progressively worse among most of the majors and anyone who claims otherwise either doesn't fly regularly or is simply not being honest. Nor have energy prices remained constant. I was paying around $0.90 per gallon in the late 1990's and now I'm paying about $2.50 today. That's still dirt cheap compared to most countries but apparently it's high enough to convince some Americans to look for alternatives. There may also be some folks who have decided to take the train out of moral or ethical considerations, and while I'm guessing that's a relatively small percentage of Amtrak's passengers it does include me. Cars and planes are just so inefficient and their pollution is so destructive that even diesel passenger trains are still an improvement. Electric trains powered by alternative fuel sources would be best but I'm not expecting to see any of that in my lifetime.

 

[sunchaser]

The cafe attendant is required to make those announcements, and yes, there are people who don't know that those cars exist or where to find them. Likewise the LSA in the dining car is required to announce each 15 minute seating. It's not their choice, it's their job.

Yeah, I get that they're not doing it out of their own free will, but that doesn't make it any less annoying or disruptive if you're trying to take a nap. Leave the intercom for emergencies, that's why it can't be turned off or down. It shouldn't be used for endlessly reminding the cattle to come to the feeding trough. Why do people need to eat so much on a train anyway? It's not like we're burning many calories on there. I would prefer to have the meals unbundled from the sleeper service so I'm not paying for food I don't really need or want.

Additionally part of the point of the diner announcements is two-fold. One, not everyone's watch is set to the same time and as I'm sure you're aware, there is no really convienent place for people who arrive early to wait. Two, the dining car does sometimes run behind, which would once again leave people standing around or having to trek back to their seat/room to wait for the "new" time.

There are a few other ways this could be handled. They could use pagers like stationary restaurants do. There are products that work over a distance that would cover most Amtrak trains. They could have screens in each car with updates. The SCA's could update their car's pax. And I'm sure there are many other ways to avoid having to abuse the intercom.

This is not something dreamed up by the crew just to annoy you.

I'm pretty sure it is. ;-)

Yeah, I know I don't say a lot of positive things about Amtrak, but I'm starting to realize that even though I strongly support passenger rail service I really don't have much love for Amtrak itself. There are just so many inherited restrictions and kludges from so many sources that there is virtually no way Amtrak won't keep falling further and further behind the rest of the industrialized world. I know it's an extremely unpopular thing to say, but maybe Amtrak really does need to be cut loose. The more layers I try to peel back the more convoluted the picture becomes and the more I realize that maybe it's simply time to start over. I don't have any ill-will toward Amtrak employees and I try to treat them as nice as possible. I just don't think they have what it will take to convince Americans that passenger rail is a serious contender for the millions of folks who currently choose cars and planes.

You can't turn the intercom down or off in your sleeper? Are you speaking of the Viewliners? We have been able to turn it off or down each time in the superliner sleepers. Then we just close the door & it's pretty quiet.

 

[Ryan]

You can't turn the intercom down or off in your sleeper? Are you speaking of the Viewliners? We have been able to turn it off or down each time in the superliner sleepers. Then we just close the door & it's pretty quiet.

You can in both.

 

[sunchaser]

I don't believe that its a matter of what it cost now as opposed to what it cost then but a matter of the competitiveness of rail travel vs other forms of transportation. The whole sleeper thing is over rated. if you can get more than 3 hours of sleep in them, you are doing pretty good. They are noisy, bumpy to stay in and not all that fantastic.

Well do not project your own insomnia on others I don't have any problem of getting solid 8 hours sleep in an Amtrak Sleepers.

When I post it is usualy not from opinion but from fact. First off I do not suffer from insomnia. I regularly get 7-8 hours of uninterrupted sleep every night and have no trouble sleeping at home.

In the past three years we have taken over 12 Amtrak trips. On all those trips I always converse with other travelers in the lounges, over dinner and in the sleeping car halls. I would say that of the 40 or 50 people that I have spoken with only one has reported getting a good nights sleep. Additionally my uncle Larry and his girlfriend just returned from an AutoTrain trip and they were able to sleep 1-2 hours. My friend Lee from Florida who meets up with us twice yearly reports that 3 hours of sleep is the limit for him , his wife and his daughter. I would say that with a sampling of 40 people and only getting one postive response from a single traveler would indicate a trend. As such we must take credence with the polling numbers.

No one can say that everyone aboard Amtrak is only able to get a few hours of sleep but our experience seems to mirror that of most travelers that we have spoken with. Sleeping in a bedroom or a roomette is not the same as sleeping in a quiet bedroom, on a pillow top bed where it is completely quiet and free from any motion. The beds in a sleeper are not soft, the pillows are flat as a pancake, they are noisy, and you get jarrred from end to end all through the trip. It is still better than sitting up in coach as you are lying down but to get a good nights sleep seems the exception and not the norm.

On our Capitol Limited trip last week and this week we were able to get maybe 3 hours of sleep each way.

Hats off to you if you can sleep 8 hours on Amtrak but so far the evidence that I can gather about the average traveler appears to indicate otherwise.

Hubby & I manage to sleep pretty much the same amount we do at home. Except for being excited about the first train ride, I was still able to get to sleep. I got so used to the train movement, that when the train stopped early in the morning in Chico, I woke up.

It certainly is not like sleeping in my own bed at home. I cannot expect that the beds would be that comfortable. I would like to see improvement, such as adding memory foam to the bedding, & better sheets & blankets, & pillows. We here can only contact our representatives & push for improvements.

I also sleep pretty light, but the sounds on the train at night do not bother me.

GML, thanks for posting those prices-it seems like the prices aren't as bad as most of us think. If you think about it, there is really no comparison between plane & train & sleepers, because other than being a form of transportation, most planes are not designed for overnight travel.

 

[dlagrua]

credence with the polling numbers.

That's no poll and it has no credence. Count me among those who sleeps better on a train than I do at home.

OK then explain why the opinion of my sampling of people doesn't count. If I cannot get many people to report that they have gotten a decent nights sleep on Amtrak it must indicate something. I do take credence in what other travelers are telling me. Should I tell them that they are full of it? Get aboard a train and start talking with other travelers and see for yourself. Yes there are a few travelers like yoursef that can sleep but I'll be willing to bet money that the majority do not sleep well if at all.

 

[Ispolkom]

OK then explain why the opinion of my sampling of people doesn't count. If I cannot get many people to report that they have gotten a decent nights sleep on Amtrak it must indicate something. I do take credence in what other travelers are telling me. Should I tell them that they are full of it? Get aboard a train and start talking with other travelers and see for yourself. Yes there are a few travelers like yoursef that can sleep but I'll be willing to bet money that the majority do not sleep well if at all.

I'd imagine that there is sampling error both ways.

1) People who post to this forum probably wouldn't travel by train, especially in sleeper, if they didn't sleep well.

2) On the other hand, when I've had breakfast with people who complain about sleeping poorly, I don't chime in with a hearty "I slept like a man with no conscience!" So I'm sure that you may have encountered people who did sleep well, but didn't say anything. Also, we generally remember people who agree with us more.

Oh, and there's also 3) The route makes a big difference. I generally sleep poorly between Fargo and Grand Forks on the Empire Builder, for instance, except when I have a deluxe sleeper to myself.

 

[caravanman]

Just to get back to the cost of train travel for a moment...

In the past, travel in most forms was the privilage of the wealthy. In recent years the cost of all travel has fallen to the point where even the person on a below average income can travel the world, if they choose to.

What is it worth to any traveller to take the train, either coach or sleeper?

Some are "forced" to take trains by reason of medical or phobic issues, but the vast majority choose on value for money, convenience, etc. I am not sure what Amtrak is supposed to be doing, what it's reasons for existing are..? Is it to charge as much money as it can to transport people from A to B, and so reduce it's subsidy, or is it to provide economical transport over longer distances, and so provide subsidised basic travel for people?

Ed

 

[Ryan]

credence with the polling numbers.

That's no poll and it has no credence. Count me among those who sleeps better on a train than I do at home.

OK then explain why the opinion of my sampling of people doesn't count. If I cannot get many people to report that they have gotten a decent nights sleep on Amtrak it must indicate something. I do take credence in what other travelers are telling me. Should I tell them that they are full of it? Get aboard a train and start talking with other travelers and see for yourself. Yes there are a few travelers like yoursef that can sleep but I'll be willing to bet money that the majority do not sleep well if at all.

A collection of anecdotes bears as much resemblance to actual credible polling data as the Cardinal does to state of the art high speed rail.

 

[Roadfool]

Getting back to the airfare comparison for a second here...

Of course flying is cheaper than coach if you're going from one major airport to another, like the LA to Boston example. But I priced out San Francisco to Omaha for my latest trip and it was $189 on Southwest vs. $166 for coach on the CZ. Also checked Omaha to Chicago and flying was cheaper on that one, but only by $10. And it's even worse if you're flying out of an airport with limited options like Fresno. Didn't even bother looking it up this time, but it's usually at least another $100 to fly United and connect in LA or SF.

And on the napping issue, I'm also one of those nocturnal people who's more likely to be sleeping at 3:00 pm than 3:00 am, but I would never expect them to turn off the announcements for a train full of people just because I feel like sleeping at an unusual hour.