MattW
Conductor
If you really wanted to park some coaches at ATL, there's an abandoned siding next to the station that used to go into I think a steel something or other. That's where the Crescent parks when it's truncated to Atlanta.
A plan for improving Amtrak Southeast service
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Matt,
I made a post tonight at 6:15 which should help with this. I know the track you are talking about, but when the norhbound comes in from NOL it would be difficult to get them attached.
You probably did not notice my post buried in there with so many but read it and I think you will see what I mean.
had8ley
Engineer
I think we have two "dead" horses here. The "Weakly" Specials have been dead so long that they don't even smell anymore and the other is the complete lack of innovative thought process when it comes to running two coaches, that are totally capable of producing revenue, over a 1,000 miles a day, seven days a week, locked up tight. I sincerely think any economist or Inspector General would have serious misgivings about the lack of foresight or implementation. As for why the NS would want Amtrak to have their own set out track I know of no RR that wants Amtrak tying up a yard track for two cars. And if we sell less than 1/2 of the available seats between NOL and Atlanta at $25 a pop we ONLY come out with about a million dollars a year. I know of no other business entity that would turn away $1million by locking up perfectly safe running equipment. And that doesn't include a dime in lounge or diner sales.This is getting to be similar to "beating a dead horse", but you are making all sorts of assumptions that I don't believe are true. You assume that a $25 price is going to generate 100s of riders each day. Who are these people and what is going to make them travel to New Orleans - even at such a low price and if they are that price sensitive they are probably not going to be diner customers - lounge possibly, but not diner. Three meals in the diner can cost you $50-60, so I don't see these potential customers spending this kind of money. Also, I am not throwing money figures around. There are definite costs associated with moving the equipment and these costs are not small. You mention "cutting in a double ended house track off one of the mains". Who is going to pay for this and why would NS want this done? I am not that familiar with the area south of the station, and perhaps Bill can provide that information, but it still is going to cost $ to move the equipment.Well, you could cut in a double ended house track off of one of the mains. This could also double as a set out track for Amtrak bad orders and extra equipment moves such as the one I have proposed. And just why do the coaches have to be set out at the station? They used to go with the mail cars some distance from the station. Is there not somewhere south of the station where two cars could be set out by #19 and picked up by #20? Bill ought to have some ideas on this as he is right there. If that fails we could enhance Amtrak's bottom line by selling the 100 plus seats (EACH WAY DAILY) for $25 a piece on the Weakly Specials or run an Atlanta to NOL promo.. Your food revenue would sky rocket as the ride, in both directions, has three meal times which would keep the diner and lounge car busy and solve two problems at one lick~ ridership enhancement and food and beverage revenues.I am sure you are familiar with the ATL station. Exactly where do you propose storing the two coaches? Both tracks are active freight tracks and you need a locomotive to move the coaches to another location.Well at least let me make a proposal; you hire a part-time coach cleaner (or contract it out if possible) and have #19 drop the two rear coaches and #20 back down onto the cars and couple up on the return. The train crew is qualified to make a brake test and I seem to remember the train crew coupling every thing up at B'Ham when the Crescent split to Mobile. If we need a full blown carman then pay the NS for one for two hours. I'm sure the wear and tear on two coaches going over 1,000 miles R/T DAILY adds up and equates to many more dollars than two hours of a carman's time. Seems like someone stopped half way through the puzzle
P.S. IF this is not feasible then why not put these 100 plus seats on the "Weakly" Specials that haven't changed in about 52 weeks or better? :unsure:
What Amtrak is doing right now does not make sense; you can throw money figures around all day but you can't justify shutting down two coaches and dragging them around for over 1,000 miles without drawing one nickel in revenue.
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Glad to see some discussion at least of the St. Louis tie in. I don't necessarily promote it as a strictly St. Louis Benefit. I am trying to open up some ways to circumvent all the unnecessary travel time for anyone wishing to go East or South or vise versa. It just seems that the powers that be and many rail fans are perfectly content to force everyone to go days out of their way in order to go somewhere that might be possible in a days time if trains were interconnected with more thought. The old National Limited connected St. Louis to the New Orleans train and also to the Florida service in Indianapolis and on to Pittsburgh and New York, all without having to wait most of the day in Chicago only to retrace all that time once again. Real useful rail service needs to be more convenient then the current layout allows. Surly a much greater passenger load would be possible if such services were available. Its a real non starter for many to have to spend so much time and money going a thousand miles out of the way. Thats hardly a sensible situation for many.
I also rode the L&N to Memphis from St. Louis before it quit running. A set of connections from other north south trains would add thousands of potential riders. A first class train would need to be reinstated from St. Louis west and southwest to really make the connections worth while for many. For that matter if even a set of cars were to connect with the zephyr in Omaha and the Chief in Kansas City would make a cross country trip avoiding chicago for many.
I also rode the L&N to Memphis from St. Louis before it quit running. A set of connections from other north south trains would add thousands of potential riders. A first class train would need to be reinstated from St. Louis west and southwest to really make the connections worth while for many. For that matter if even a set of cars were to connect with the zephyr in Omaha and the Chief in Kansas City would make a cross country trip avoiding chicago for many.
I am not sure how you went L&N from Memphis to St. Louis, unless, perhaps you changed in Guthrie. I wonder if maybe you meant Illinois Central? About what year would that have been? I'm intrigued by anything L&N.
Bill,
You are correct, my memory failed me on this one. It was the early 60's and I have photos of us standing at the train station on the Illinois Central Line. I don't know how I got that L & N in my mind. It must have been that connection to the Panama Limited out of St. Louis Perhaps. It was overnight which would have indicated a connection on IC to the Panama. But I have photos of the return and its in the day waiting for the train in Memphis, so exactly which train would have connected in daylight with a return to St. Louis I also can't recall.
You are correct, my memory failed me on this one. It was the early 60's and I have photos of us standing at the train station on the Illinois Central Line. I don't know how I got that L & N in my mind. It must have been that connection to the Panama Limited out of St. Louis Perhaps. It was overnight which would have indicated a connection on IC to the Panama. But I have photos of the return and its in the day waiting for the train in Memphis, so exactly which train would have connected in daylight with a return to St. Louis I also can't recall.
Looking at a Sept. 1957 Railway Guide I think you were on the City of New Orleans northbound (back when it was on a super fast daytime schedule). If left Memphis 1:55 p.m. arrived St.Louis 9 p.m. At that time it still had a through New Orleans to St.Louis coach. In later years you would have had to change trains in Carbondale.
For your southbound, at least in 1957, you could have either been on the Chickasaw (lv.STL 11:17p.m. ar.Memphis 7 a.m.) or the Panana Limited (lv STL 7 p.m. ar. Memphis, 2.17 am.)
All I can remember about the trip south was that it was at night and right after segregation ended on the train because the conductor was adamant that due to having to seat all passengers together the lights in the cars would be kept on all night! So right on the edge of history there. I can't recall much about the actual train at all or what time we got in to Memphis?
TVRM610
Conductor
Have either of you ever ridden the Crescent through Atlanta? (I'm not being smart just seriously asking btw). This is a somewhat unique situation that has been described quite well by other posters. Amtrak used to cut off the cars, I remember seeing them do this. It is more cost effective to run them empty.I think we have two "dead" horses here. The "Weakly" Specials have been dead so long that they don't even smell anymore and the other is the complete lack of innovative thought process when it comes to running two coaches, that are totally capable of producing revenue, over a 1,000 miles a day, seven days a week, locked up tight. I sincerely think any economist or Inspector General would have serious misgivings about the lack of foresight or implementation. As for why the NS would want Amtrak to have their own set out track I know of no RR that wants Amtrak tying up a yard track for two cars. And if we sell less than 1/2 of the available seats between NOL and Atlanta at $25 a pop we ONLY come out with about a million dollars a year. I know of no other business entity that would turn away $1million by locking up perfectly safe running equipment. And that doesn't include a dime in lounge or diner sales.This is getting to be similar to "beating a dead horse", but you are making all sorts of assumptions that I don't believe are true. You assume that a $25 price is going to generate 100s of riders each day. Who are these people and what is going to make them travel to New Orleans - even at such a low price and if they are that price sensitive they are probably not going to be diner customers - lounge possibly, but not diner. Three meals in the diner can cost you $50-60, so I don't see these potential customers spending this kind of money. Also, I am not throwing money figures around. There are definite costs associated with moving the equipment and these costs are not small. You mention "cutting in a double ended house track off one of the mains". Who is going to pay for this and why would NS want this done? I am not that familiar with the area south of the station, and perhaps Bill can provide that information, but it still is going to cost $ to move the equipment.Well, you could cut in a double ended house track off of one of the mains. This could also double as a set out track for Amtrak bad orders and extra equipment moves such as the one I have proposed. And just why do the coaches have to be set out at the station? They used to go with the mail cars some distance from the station. Is there not somewhere south of the station where two cars could be set out by #19 and picked up by #20? Bill ought to have some ideas on this as he is right there. If that fails we could enhance Amtrak's bottom line by selling the 100 plus seats (EACH WAY DAILY) for $25 a piece on the Weakly Specials or run an Atlanta to NOL promo.. Your food revenue would sky rocket as the ride, in both directions, has three meal times which would keep the diner and lounge car busy and solve two problems at one lick~ ridership enhancement and food and beverage revenues.I am sure you are familiar with the ATL station. Exactly where do you propose storing the two coaches? Both tracks are active freight tracks and you need a locomotive to move the coaches to another location.Well at least let me make a proposal; you hire a part-time coach cleaner (or contract it out if possible) and have #19 drop the two rear coaches and #20 back down onto the cars and couple up on the return. The train crew is qualified to make a brake test and I seem to remember the train crew coupling every thing up at B'Ham when the Crescent split to Mobile. If we need a full blown carman then pay the NS for one for two hours. I'm sure the wear and tear on two coaches going over 1,000 miles R/T DAILY adds up and equates to many more dollars than two hours of a carman's time. Seems like someone stopped half way through the puzzle
P.S. IF this is not feasible then why not put these 100 plus seats on the "Weakly" Specials that haven't changed in about 52 weeks or better? :unsure:
What Amtrak is doing right now does not make sense; you can throw money figures around all day but you can't justify shutting down two coaches and dragging them around for over 1,000 miles without drawing one nickel in revenue.
The real problem lies in the fact that Amtrak is only running 1 service out of Atlanta! If there were other trains out of ATL (like a day train ATL-Charlotte for one!) there would possibly be other crews that could be assigned to handle these cars and maybe even use them on another service. I'm not saying that the current situation is perfect or even ideal, but if you understand the situation its does make some sense.
I've seen them open up at least 1 of the two coaches south of ATL on busy times such as Mardis Gras weekend so they are sometimes used.
The City of New Orleans is not full south of Memphis... should they be hiring crews to cut cars off too? What about the Silver Service trains south of Orlando? OK I'm being a bit of a smart A but still why are you picking on the poor Crescent... at least it can keep time!
had8ley
Engineer
I don't think you're being a smarty pants but I do not think I am 'picking" on the Crescent. You missed part B of my proposal. Let's just say we forget about cutting off any equipment enroute. Why not list these vacant, locked up, seats in a promo or the "Weakly" specials instead of dragging around two empty cars much like the City? Would you load a truck in Chicago and unload half in Memphis and refuse another half load in Memphis going to New Orleans? I would certainly hope not and don't think your company would appreciate it very much~ all I'm trying to do is to get Amtrak to fill the revenue side of their ledger sheet; apparently there is some discrimination as to "who" might ride the train at a cut rate fare. I was personally admonished by the VP of Operations of a Class 1 freight RR for riding in Business Class instead of straight coach so you cannot tell me any "survey" or dead horses are going to crystal ball who, and from economic status, is going to take Amtrak up onHave either of you ever ridden the Crescent through Atlanta? (I'm not being smart just seriously asking btw). This is a somewhat unique situation that has been described quite well by other posters. Amtrak used to cut off the cars, I remember seeing them do this. It is more cost effective to run them empty.I think we have two "dead" horses here. The "Weakly" Specials have been dead so long that they don't even smell anymore and the other is the complete lack of innovative thought process when it comes to running two coaches, that are totally capable of producing revenue, over a 1,000 miles a day, seven days a week, locked up tight. I sincerely think any economist or Inspector General would have serious misgivings about the lack of foresight or implementation. As for why the NS would want Amtrak to have their own set out track I know of no RR that wants Amtrak tying up a yard track for two cars. And if we sell less than 1/2 of the available seats between NOL and Atlanta at $25 a pop we ONLY come out with about a million dollars a year. I know of no other business entity that would turn away $1million by locking up perfectly safe running equipment. And that doesn't include a dime in lounge or diner sales.This is getting to be similar to "beating a dead horse", but you are making all sorts of assumptions that I don't believe are true. You assume that a $25 price is going to generate 100s of riders each day. Who are these people and what is going to make them travel to New Orleans - even at such a low price and if they are that price sensitive they are probably not going to be diner customers - lounge possibly, but not diner. Three meals in the diner can cost you $50-60, so I don't see these potential customers spending this kind of money. Also, I am not throwing money figures around. There are definite costs associated with moving the equipment and these costs are not small. You mention "cutting in a double ended house track off one of the mains". Who is going to pay for this and why would NS want this done? I am not that familiar with the area south of the station, and perhaps Bill can provide that information, but it still is going to cost $ to move the equipment.Well, you could cut in a double ended house track off of one of the mains. This could also double as a set out track for Amtrak bad orders and extra equipment moves such as the one I have proposed. And just why do the coaches have to be set out at the station? They used to go with the mail cars some distance from the station. Is there not somewhere south of the station where two cars could be set out by #19 and picked up by #20? Bill ought to have some ideas on this as he is right there. If that fails we could enhance Amtrak's bottom line by selling the 100 plus seats (EACH WAY DAILY) for $25 a piece on the Weakly Specials or run an Atlanta to NOL promo.. Your food revenue would sky rocket as the ride, in both directions, has three meal times which would keep the diner and lounge car busy and solve two problems at one lick~ ridership enhancement and food and beverage revenues.I am sure you are familiar with the ATL station. Exactly where do you propose storing the two coaches? Both tracks are active freight tracks and you need a locomotive to move the coaches to another location.Well at least let me make a proposal; you hire a part-time coach cleaner (or contract it out if possible) and have #19 drop the two rear coaches and #20 back down onto the cars and couple up on the return. The train crew is qualified to make a brake test and I seem to remember the train crew coupling every thing up at B'Ham when the Crescent split to Mobile. If we need a full blown carman then pay the NS for one for two hours. I'm sure the wear and tear on two coaches going over 1,000 miles R/T DAILY adds up and equates to many more dollars than two hours of a carman's time. Seems like someone stopped half way through the puzzle
P.S. IF this is not feasible then why not put these 100 plus seats on the "Weakly" Specials that haven't changed in about 52 weeks or better? :unsure:
What Amtrak is doing right now does not make sense; you can throw money figures around all day but you can't justify shutting down two coaches and dragging them around for over 1,000 miles without drawing one nickel in revenue.
The real problem lies in the fact that Amtrak is only running 1 service out of Atlanta! If there were other trains out of ATL (like a day train ATL-Charlotte for one!) there would possibly be other crews that could be assigned to handle these cars and maybe even use them on another service. I'm not saying that the current situation is perfect or even ideal, but if you understand the situation its does make some sense.
I've seen them open up at least 1 of the two coaches south of ATL on busy times such as Mardis Gras weekend so they are sometimes used.
The City of New Orleans is not full south of Memphis... should they be hiring crews to cut cars off too? What about the Silver Service trains south of Orlando? OK I'm being a bit of a smart A but still why are you picking on the poor Crescent... at least it can keep time!
a cut rate seat.
Believe it or not I'm riding this horse in a serious attempt to get Amtrak to do the right thing~ give the American taxpayer his monies worth for what he is subsidizing; not some lame brain survey, that someone has dreamt up from behind a desk, that goes no where and does nothing positive for Amtrak and its patrons. I invite anyone to prove me wrong! Fire away !!!
Joel N. Weber II
Engineer
Have you discussed this with Amtrak's Inspector General?
TVRM610
Conductor
I agree to an extent. I'm all for Amtrak adding these to there weekly specials... and anything else they want to do to promote this service. However I do think that somewhat the demand is not there... ATL to NOL is just not in demand like ATL to WAS. I'm all for Amtrak doing there best to fill empty seats though.
had8ley
Engineer
Air Tran and Delta fly thousands of people weekly between New Orleans and Atlanta at an $89 one way base rate. I don't see how hard it would be to woe just 100 or so off of those planes with a $25 ticket. I guess I'm assuming we have the effective sales staff to do so. Haven't checked into Greyhound's rates but they share the NOL UPT with Amtrak. I'm sure if the bus is more than $25 that some people would be inclined to try the train. Good golly; do we have to wear the wheels off of two coaches to prove a point?
had8ley
Engineer
I was amazed to hear Grehound's fare to ride from New Orleans to Atlanta~ $78 ONE WAY on Mondays through Thursdays and $84 on the week-ends (almost equal to the airlines lowest fare). What more incentive does Amtrak need? I guess my knocking at Amtrak's door needs to change into a battering ram. Here we go...
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Can you imagine the HUB ATL could be if there was also service to Jacksonville, Memphis, and Cincinnati? They place would be booming!
Just for the heck of it, just for fun, let me try to name most of the routes formerly reached from Atlanta's two major downtown stations, before Amtrak. This is not meant to be exhaustive or complete,
just a quick attempt.
Wahington, New York, two routes (one today's route and one via Richmond)
Florida points, Dixie Flagler route, Southland West coast route, Royal Palm route, KC Fla Special route(sample train names)
Chicago, three routes,sample train names: Georgian, Southland,Royal Palm
Nashville, St.Louis
Chattanooga two routes
Birmingham, two routes
New Orleans, two routes (one Montgomery,Mobile; one Birmingham, Meridian)
Augusta ,Ga (some of you will know this primarily for golf)
Memphis, Kansas City
Columbus, Ga
Savannah
Cincinnatii, Detroit, two routes (one via Chattanooga, one via Knoxville)
Again, all kinds of disclaimers---- this just a rough spur of the moment listing.
Up until mid 1957 there were eight different passenger railroads serving Atlanta.
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Bane
Train Attendant
Nashville is growing much more then Memphis. My home town Franklin is honestly part of Nashville now is now the national headquarters for Nissan. It's so big I get lost easily in a place I grew up and moved from 2 years ago! Seriously bring back The Hummingbird!
TVRM610
Conductor
So what is your theory then? Why are people paying more to ride airlines and Greyhound? And if people are already willing to pay $30 more, how would making tickets cheaper really help?
My theory is that the train leaves ATL at an inconveenient time, many people do not want to fight rush hour traffic to get to the ATL station by 7:30 ish to catch the train. Not to mention since there is no parking at the ATL station they have to have someone drop them off, take the bus (which is not especially easy in this situation) or a taxi.
Again.. I'm all for Amtrak filling seats! And if they advertise the service and it fills up GREAT! But I really don't think advertising is the problem. How come all those people line up to get on the train to DC? How come they found out about it but people needing to go to NOL don't? I think when people look at the train option it is not convenient for them. And by the way I've gotten on the train to NOL from ATL several times and there is always a crowd getting on..
You can magnify that idea by any major city, not just Atlanta and that is the issue we face. Rail service used to be convenient allowing many to travel in all directions with connections to all parts of the country from the major city near you. Now we are faced with that only being possible in several locations. Rail service will never be viable to many until the convenience returns.
These two comments sort of say why I feel Amtrak upper management doesn't want to run trains. I do hope there is a light in the tunnel ahead and this changes.
Aloha
Eric
transit54
Conductor
I don't know if I agree with that. Do they have the equipment to run such services? Do they have the funding? Are the tracks in any decent condition? I work for a public transit agency. There's plenty of places we'd love to have service and where we know there would be fantastic ridership. Why don't we have service to these places? Because we can't secure the funding for it. It's the same with Amtrak. I'm sure if tomorrow you went to Amtrak with the funding to refurbish some equipment and to start the service, they'd get right to work on it. That's not to say that they don't have management issues, but I don't think that upper management 'doesn't want to run trains.'
Joel N. Weber II
Engineer
I tend to feel like part of the problem is also a lack of anyone really explaining to the public why they should be interested in figuring out how to come up with huge amounts of money to make serious improvements in these areas.
I'm convinced that if we had high speed, double track rights of way going in two or three directions out of most major cities (and only one direction for cities that make sense as endpoints of an HSR network like Boston and Miami), we could have ten or more intercity departures every hour towards various destinations, and we could get the tracks pretty saturated with trains (though we might not have more than a few hundred people in the average train at that point).
Joel N. Weber II
Engineer
Some variation on this theme is a problem in just about every city in the US. I don't think there is one major city with multiple local rail services where you can board at any local rail station and get a one seat ride to a station where you can transfer to any intercity train.
In DC, the Red Line of the subway is the only subway line that connects with all Amtrak service. (Build enough tracks to L'Enfant and have all Amtrak service also stop at L'Enfant, and you could fix this.)
In Boston, the Blue Line doesn't connect directly to any Amtrak service, there's the whole issue with the north/south split, and not all Green Line trains connect through to North Station, although that last problem might (or might not) get solved when the Green Line extension to Somerville / Medford happens, and the proposed North South Rail Link might fix all of the rest of the problems depending on what station configuration is used under I-93.
In New York City, you can't directly transfer between some Amtrak services and some Metro North Lines, there are probably subway services with no direct Amtrak transfer, and some NJT trains that terminate at Hoboken have no direct Amtrak connection.
Baltimore Light Rail connects to Amtrak via an awkward spur to Baltimore Penn Station; a better design might be Amtrak stops along the middle of the main Baltimore Light Rail lines. And I don't think there's really any Amtrak to Baltimore Metro connection at all.
I think Rail Runner actually does connect with Amtrak, hence my comment about multiple local rail services.
Maybe Patrick will jump in and remind me that California has trains (even though I don't really remember seeing any when I lived there for two and a half years, except for some 1/8 scale or 1/4 scale or something thing in Balboa Park) and comment on how Los Angeles compares in this regard.
had8ley
Engineer
I'll beat Patrick to the punch~ Fort Worth/Dallas has excellent one seat train connections to both the Texas Eagle and the Heartland Flyer. In Fort Worth all you have to do is cross over to the next track and the trains are all at ground level.
haolerider
Conductor
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I have to agree with this comment. There is no solid piece of evidence that "uppper management doesn't want to run trains", in fact there is condiserable evidence that this is false. The basic reason there are no new routes is what has been noted above - funding, adaquate tracks (with permission from the freight railroads) to use, the ability to re-furbish equipment (or purchase new), etc. etc.
These are the same issues that have been discussed over and over on this forum, so I think Eric's statement borders on the ridiculous - and I know he knows better.
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